Salvation through Christ alone not works less any man should boast.

[Stan53]

First, 1 Thess 1:3 shows that faith is a work, "work of faith" - "ergon pistis" is literally work faith. A working faith saves and "faith only" is not a working faith for faith only is void of works. So how can a faith empty of works produce works? Can an empty water bottle produce water? It's impossible.
Mk 2:5 says Jesus "saw their faith". What was it that Jesus saw that is called faith? The work those men did. Jesus saw the work these men did in removing the roof and lowering the sick man down to Him and their work is here is called faith.

Secondly, James already made the point that a living, viable faith has works. A faith that has no works is dead therefore "faith alone" is dead for it is void of works. So again, how does a dead faith only ever produce works when it is DEAD?

Lastly, Rom 10:9,10 proves my point. Paul said one has to both believe unto righteousness and confess with the mouth unto salvation. Both belief, Jn 6:27ff and confessing with the mouth are works, they are something done. And these two works are "UNTO salvation" not "because of salvation", so Rom 10:9,10 puts works before salvation.

Yes, it would appear that Jesus saw their faith by their determination to get the paralyzed man into the house where Jesus was. It could also appear that Jesus perceived their faith, as He was so ably capable of doing. In either case, their faith, which they already had, produced results. However, there is not use of the word ergon in this verse or the previous verse.

Again, James does NOT talk about faith as regards salvation...he talks about faith as regards LIVING in Christ. Here he clearly states that saying you believe in Christ and His message, but not producing fruit, clearly shows your faith is dead. It may have been alive when you accepted Christ, but it is no longer.

Again, in context, Romans 10:9-10; are predicated on Romans 10:8, where Paul starts by saying; But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,†that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim:
You would have us believe that faith is a work, and that what Paul says in Eph 2:8-9 is not correct. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Yes, it would appear that Jesus saw their faith by their determination to get the paralyzed man into the house where Jesus was. It could also appear that Jesus perceived their faith, as He was so ably capable of doing. In either case, their faith, which they already had, produced results. However, there is not use of the word ergon in this verse or the previous verse.

Again, James does NOT talk about faith as regards salvation...he talks about faith as regards LIVING in Christ. Here he clearly states that saying you believe in Christ and His message, but not producing fruit, clearly shows your faith is dead. It may have been alive when you accepted Christ, but it is no longer.

Again, in context, Romans 10:9-10; are predicated on Romans 10:8, where Paul starts by saying; But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim:
You would have us believe that faith is a work, and that what Paul says in Eph 2:8-9 is not correct. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

The verse says Jesus saw their faith not perceived their faith. What Jesus saw was the works those men did and those works are called faith. If not, then someone needs to explain to me what faith looks like, what shape is faith, what color is faith, what size is faith, etc that Jesus saw.


James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." James is speaking about a faith that justifies/saves and a faith that justifies/saves is a faith that has works. Faith only is empty of works therefore cannot justify (save).


Faith is a work for if it is not it is dead. In Eph 2:9 when Paul said "not of works" he is referencing works of merit. If one could save himself by doing works of meirt then he would have something to boast about. Faith is not a work of merit but a work of righteousness God has given man to do, Jn 6:27ff. The same Paul that wrote Eph 2:8,9 also wrote Rom 6:16-18 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."

First, Paul said you serve one of two masters, you either serve (1) sin unto death or (2) obedience unto righteousness. I serve #2, obedience unto righteousness. Note Paul did not say obedience because of righteousness but one obeys to obtain righteousness. Seconldy Paul said the Romans obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine (water baptism for remission of sins) then they were made free from sin (justified). Obedience lead to their justification.

 

[Stan53]

The verse says Jesus saw their faith not perceived their faith. What Jesus saw was the works those men did and those works are called faith. If not, then someone needs to explain to me what faith looks like, what shape is faith, what color is faith, what size is faith, etc that Jesus saw.

I suggest you look at the Greek word horaō, which has two connotations. One is to perceive with your eyes and the other is to perceive with your mind. This is not unusual at all as far as Jesus is concerned. In Matthew 12:25; the verse starts with, "Jesus knew their thoughts". Jesus excersized this kind of awareness throughout His ministry.

James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." James is speaking about a faith that justifies/saves and a faith that justifies/saves is a faith that has works. Faith only is empty of works therefore cannot justify (save).

James 2:24 says; You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. Adding words or your thoughts to this scripture, is NOT acceptable. James is talking to believers, who have already been saved. He not talking to unbelievers.

Faith is a work for if it is not it is dead. In Eph 2:9 when Paul said "not of works" he is referencing works of merit. If one could save himself by doing works of meirt then he would have something to boast about. Faith is not a work of merit but a work of righteousness God has given man to do, Jn 6:27. The same Paul that wrote Eph 2:8,9 also wrote Rom 6:16-18 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."

Again you ADD words and concepts that are NOT in the scripture, just to try and emphasize your POV. Faith is faith, NOT works. Works is works. James does say works MUST accompany faith, so obviously they are two totally different things. Your logic states that "Works must accompany Works." This is NOT a concept supported in scripture that is properly exegeted.

First, Paul said you serve one of two masters, you either serve (1) sin unto death or (2) obedience unto righteousness. I serve #2, obedience unto righteousness. Note Paul did not say obedience because of righteousness but one obeys to obtain righteousness. Seconldy Paul said the Romans obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine (water baptism for remission of sins) then they were made free from sin (justified). Obedience lead to their justification.

It would help to actually quote the scripture you are referring to when making these kind of assertions. I have no idea in what context you are talking about here. I see nothing about masters in Romans 10, so this just sounds like your own self suiting POV.

 

[zeke]

Faith is faith, NOT works. Works is works.

could you please tell him that faith itself is one of the works of God that man must do. To say that man can do nothing to be saved is an error - man must work the works of God, i.e., man must do that which God requires via obedience to His will.

"Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent"" (John 6:27-28).​

 

[John O]

I believe that there is in fact three salvations:

Salvation 1) is the salvation spoken of throughout this thread which is not of works but of faith (though each requires faith) This is our security of eternity in Christ

Salvation 2) This is the salvation (transformation) of our soul which is our faith in action. When we are born again we all know that while our spirit has been made alive in Christ our mind has not yet been regenerated. We are carnal thinkers but saved by grace.

Salvation 3) This salvation is the transformation (morphing) of our physical body to a spiritual body. The transformation of the mortal and corruptible to the immortal and incorruptible.

If we grasp a full understanding of this 3 salvation process we will never be the same again. Christ redeemed us but He also wants to present as as mature sons unto His Father through the tutorlege of the Holy Spirit.

If we grasp this concept we will never settle for just the 1st salvation (as awesome as that is) because we see that God wants to transform us from glory to glory, from child to son of the most High God.

We would no longer sit in a church service and think "this does not apply to me because I am saved". We will begin to search out our God through His word and prayer to discover who He is and who we are designed to be in Him. It is from this place of searching that God will use us because He is looking for children on whose behalf He can do great exploits.

We are called to be the rolling stone who gathers no moss.

I hope you can see how the preaching of the modern church has left so many Christians stuck on the first level of maturity in Christ asking themselves "is this it, do I now just wait until I die to go to heaven?

We are called to be leaders that will proclaim and help disciple other leaders the gospel of the good news.

John O

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I suggest you look at the Greek word horaō, which has two connotations. One is to perceive with your eyes and the other is to perceive with your mind. This is not unusual at all as far as Jesus is concerned. In Matthew 12:25; the verse starts with, "Jesus knew their thoughts". Jesus excersized this kind of awareness throughout His ministry.

The context does not fit what you are saying here. You would have me think those men did nothing while Christ perceived their thoughts, that is, they just thought about removing the roof and thought about lowering the sick man down and Jesus read their thoughts. The context says the men did works, Jesus saw [eidō] with His sense of sight the work the men did and that work is called faith.

James 2:24 says; You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. Adding words or your thoughts to this scripture, is NOT acceptable. James is talking to believers, who have already been saved. He not talking to unbelievers.

James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

James is saying a faith that justifies is a faith that has works...."Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"

You would have me think Abraham was NOT justified by works but by faith only which is the exact opposite of what James said.

Again you ADD words and concepts that are NOT in the scriputre, just to try and emphasize your POV. Faith is faith, NOT works. Works is works. James does say works MUST accompany faith, so obviously they are two totally different things. Your logic states that "Works must accompany Works." This is NOT a concept supported in scripture that is properly exegeted.

James said man is NOT justified by faith only.
Stan53 says man is justified by faith only.

A faith without works is DEAD and you would have me think a dead faith can save...a dead faith cannot do anything for it is dead. As I showed before:


(1) faith only>>>>>>>(2)saves>>>>>>>>(3) then do works

Above is how you would have me think salvation takes place. Yet your initial faith only (1) is dead being empty of works. A dead faith cannot produce anything much less salvation or works. So your process of salvation begins and ends at (1) and cannot advance from there for it is dead on arrival at (1).

It would help to actually quote the scripture you are referring to when making these kind of assertions. I have no idea in what context you are talking about here. I see nothing about masters in Romans 10, so this just sounds like your own self suiting POV.

I did post the verses, even put them in red color. Here is what I posted that you did not address:



""Faith is a work for if it is not it is dead. In Eph 2:9 when Paul said "not of works" he is referencing works of merit. If one could save himself by doing works of meirt then he would have something to boast about. Faith is not a work of merit but a work of righteousness God has given man to do, Jn 6:27ff.

The same Paul that wrote Eph 2:8,9 also wrote Rom 6:16-18 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."

First, Paul said you serve one of two masters, you either serve (1) sin unto death or (2) obedience unto righteousness. I serve #2, obedience unto righteousness. Note Paul did not say obedience because of righteousness but one obeys to obtain righteousness. Seconldy Paul said the Romans obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine (water baptism for remission of sins) then they were made free from sin (justified). Obedience lead to their justification. ""

The point of me posting what Paul wrote in Rom 6 was to prove that when Paul said "not of works" in Eph 2:9 he did NOT include all types works for in Rom 6 Paul shows obedience is necessary to be justified.

 

[rainbows]

Faith or works or reconciliation through Christ?

Christ has the preeminence in all doctrine and theology.

Scripture explains the reconciliation of mankind to God through Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:19
namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Christ was predestined from all eternity not us.

1 Peter 1:20 (NASB)
20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you

We may only submit to the Holy Spirits conviction.

1 Thessalonians 1:5
for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction; just as you know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.

God has not favorites amongst humanity, no one is predestined.

Galatians 2:6
6 But from those who were of high reputation, what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality, those who were of reputation contributed nothing to me.

It is not God's wish that any miss out on salvation.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Paul's great revelation was that the gentiles have been
grafted into the reconciliation of Christ. This is only
through the kindness of God (Grace), the gentiles may be grafted
back out again. Read Romans 10.

It was never freewill or individual predestination.

It is choosing under conviction to submit to
the predestined Christ, who died for all humanity.

Jesus is the only name under heaven whereby
reconciliation to God is available.

Christ first, above all, all else has secondary significance.

Good deeds or works are the result of faith which is a gift.

Sanctification is a gift, repentance is a gift,
all is from above not from us.

God is sovereign, Christ was predestined.

Choose this day whom you will serve.

 

[Elijah674]

Are we seeing a real Faith in these below ones or not? These were real believers it says, and the problem was & is even today, that mankind puts something ahead or before Christ. Meaning that real Saving Faith In Christ has 'WORKING' OBEDIENCE!

John 12
[42] Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
[43] For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

And even this type of sick FAITH is prophesied by Christ in choosing 'anything but Obedience over Him'

Isa. 5
[3] And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.

And to make this choice found a faith to choose either Loving Obedience or the false satanic Faith of a Christless Vineyard! The same freedom that the Rev. 17:1-5 ones have all choosen before it ENDS.

 

[John O]

Our salvation is at the mercy and grace of God of faith and not works but once faith has caused us to come alive in Christ the Holy Spirit comes and teaches us to become mature in Christ showing us that to be mature in Him we need to do good works not to save us but to grow us from a child of God to the role of son of God approved of Him.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

John O

 

[Drew]

1. Christians in the reformation tradition have misread Paul as denying the role of good works in ultimate salvation. More specifically, when Paul is trying to tell the Jew that he is not saved by virtue of his membership in the community that does the works of the Law of Moses, many readers think Paul is saying "good works do not play a role in salvation;

2. Texts like Romans 2:6-7 clearly establish that good works are indeed the basis on which salvation is granted.

3. Because only those with the Holy Spirit are empowered to do such good works, and because the Spirit is only granted on the basis of faith alone, nothing I am saying contradicts the notion that we are saved through faith.

Relevant arguments can be provided, but if past evidence is any indication, many posters are simply not willing to accept the sober verdict of the text, and accept that while the reformers got a lot of things right, they were not perfect.

 

[John O]

Rom 13:11 This also, knowing the time, that it is already time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we believed.

Interesting verse. It appears Paul is now speaking of another salvation which is nearer than the first salvation. Also if we first believed is that a response to something or did one moment we not believe and the next we did.

Your thoughts would be most interestingly received.

John O