Salvation/Works Question...

[elijah23]

If salvation is not by works, and we can do nothing to earn our way into God's family, how am I supposed to deal with verses that demand all people to repent and obey Christ's commandments? If we obeyed and repented, we would have something to boast about and we would've earned, or worked our way up the spiritual ladder to God (which is impossible).

Can we therefore conclude that it is impossible to do those things which Chist commands and demands without his will and him first drawing us? (John 6:44) This makes our free will in salvation impossible right?

We get ourselves into trouble because of our sin and need to be saved because of that. That has nothing to do with works.

However, once we’ve been saved a few times, we might get smart and stop sinning, so we don’t need to be saved so often. This is works.

 

[Drew]

We get ourselves into trouble because of our sin and need to be saved because of that. That has nothing to do with works.

Paul says otherwise:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

 

[elijah23]

Paul says otherwise:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

We all have sinned. Jesus saved us from our sins by dying on the cross.

 

[Alabaster]

We get ourselves into trouble because of our sin and need to be saved because of that. That has nothing to do with works.

However, once we’ve been saved a few times, we might get smart and stop sinning, so we don’t need to be saved so often. This is works.

What do you mean by, "saved a few times"?

Once we are truly saved, it is forever.

 

[dadof10]

I'm afraid I don't know how to explain it more clearly. I don't do works for the sake of salvation. I do works because I have been saved.

I love my wife and I do things for her all the time. I don't do them because I want her to love me back. I do them because she loves me and I want to please her. Does that make sense?

I understand your view, I just need some clarification. I'll be more specific with my questions.

Is "accepting Jesus" a "work"?

Is Baptism?

Is keeping the commandments?

Is charity?

 

[dadof10]

What I am asserting is this:

1. In places like Romans 2, 2 Corinthians 5, and elsewhere, it is clear that there will be a future judgement, at which all will appear, and where eternal life will be granted based on the "good deeds" that our lives manifest. You and I are both aware that many protestant evangelicals do not believe this, but I suggest they are misreading scripture - watch the way these people try to dismiss Romans 2:6-13 as "hypothetical;

2. Having said this, it is also clear that "deeds" done by the power of moral self-effort are not salvific. Instead, it is only through the "free grace" gift of the Holy Spirit, given on the basis of faith alone, that we are enabled to do the good works that will ultimately save us.

I hope this clarifies my position. If not, please ask again.

The bolded above is really the only confusing part. The way it's written might lead someone to think you believe that "faith alone" is not a "gift of the Holy Spirit". I think the words "on the basis of" imply that Grace is given ONLY if a person has faith first, and that faith is outside of Grace.

I've read enough of your posts to know you don't believe this to be the case.

 

[Elijah674]

The bolded above is really the only confusing part. The way it's written might lead someone to think you believe that "faith alone" is not a "gift of the Holy Spirit". I think the words "on the basis of" imply that Grace is given ONLY if a person has faith first, and that faith is outside of Grace.

I've read enough of your posts to know you don't believe this to be the case.

The Bible is the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Acts 5:32 says that you are wrong.
Gen. 6:3 finds the Holy Spirit STRIVING to enter ones heart! If there were submission? There would have been more than 8 souls written.. that went into the Ark! All have faith, all do not have SAVING Faith. Saving FAITH comes from being Born Again, it is then & ONLY Then that Obedient Works of being 'LED' follow! Rom. 8:14

--Elojah

 

[dadof10]

The Bible is the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Acts 5:32 says that you are wrong.
Gen. 6:3 finds the Holy Spirit STRIVING to enter ones heart! If there were submission? There would have been more than 8 souls written.. that went into the Ark! All have faith, all do not have SAVING Faith. Saving FAITH comes from being Born Again, it is then & ONLY Then that Obedient Works of being 'LED' follow! Rom. 8:14

--Elojah

Acts 5 talks about Drew's views on Grace?

I believe (as does Drew, I think) that we are justified by Grace alone, and that it is only by the Grace of God that we can have faith. His sentence structure was confusing to me, which is why I want clarification.

I also believe that unless we cooperate with that Grace we can lose our salvation, and that the deeds we either do or refuse to do directly effect that salvation, whether we consider ourselves "saved" or not.

If you disagree with this, then just answer the question posed above. We must "accept Jesus as Lord and Savior" to be saved. Is this a "work"?

 

[Elijah674]

Acts 5 talks about Drew's views on Grace?

I believe (as does Drew, I think) that we are justified by Grace alone, and that it is only by the Grace of God that we can have faith. His sentence structure was confusing to me, which is why I want clarification.

I also believe that unless we cooperate with that Grace we can lose our salvation, and that the deeds we either do or refuse to do directly effect that salvation, whether we consider ourselves "saved" or not.

If you disagree with this, then just answer the question posed above. We must "accept Jesus as Lord and Savior" to be saved. Is this a "work"?

When one (accepts) submits, what does he submit to? See Gen. 4:7's CONDITION! Acts 9:6 is a CLEAR REQUIRED CONDITION also. And James 2:24 ask's you your question, huh!;) & verse 20 ibid. documents that.. 'FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.'

And not only that, but ones who hear only, and are without works of OBEDIENCE are in a very bad way! Rom. 2:13!'For not the hearers [of the law are just before God], [but the DOERS OF THE LAW SHALL BE JUSTIFIED].'

--Elijah

 

[dadof10]

When one (accepts) submits, what does he submit to? See Gen. 4:7's CONDITION! Acts 9:6 is a CLEAR REQUIRED CONDITION also. And James 2:24 ask's you your question, huh!;) & verse 20 ibid. documents that.. 'FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.'

And not only that, but ones who hear only, and are without works of OBEDIENCE are in a very bad way! Rom. 2:13!'For not the hearers [of the law are just before God], [but the DOERS OF THE LAW SHALL BE JUSTIFIED].'

--Elijah

Then we agree. We are not justified by faith alone. Our salvation is contingent upon how we live our lives.

Baptism, keeping the Commandments, charity, etc. (all done in faith) are NECESSARY for salvation.

 

[Alabaster]

Then we agree. We are not justified by faith alone. Our salvation is contingent upon how we live our lives.

Baptism, keeping the Commandments, charity, etc. (all done in faith) are NECESSARY for salvation.

That is not really true. Salvation is contingent on God's promise to remove our sin by the blood of Jesus Christ by our faith. Our faith THEN produces righteousness which is manifested by our works.

Works are not necessary for salvation, but if we are not on our deathbed, then our deeds will reflect our faith to the world.

 

[dadof10]

That is not really true. Salvation is contingent on God's promise to remove our sin by the blood of Jesus Christ by our faith. Our faith THEN produces righteousness which is manifested by our works.

Works are not necessary for salvation, but if we are not on our deathbed, then our deeds will reflect our faith to the world.

Is faith necessary for salvation? If so, do you consider having faith a "work"? Is "accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior" a "work"?

Scripture constantly tells us we must HAVE FAITH. If "having faith" is an act of the will and is NECESSARY for salvation, how can you logically set it apart from all other "acts of righteousness" which you don't consider salvific? Where do you draw the line and why?

 

[Elijah674]

Is faith necessary for salvation? If so, do you consider having faith a "work"? Is "accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior" a "work"?

Scripture constantly tells us we must HAVE FAITH. If "having faith" is an act of the will and is NECESSARY for salvation, how can you logically set it apart from all other "acts of righteousness" which you don't consider salvific? Where do you draw the line and why?

???? There is NO SAVING FAITH without OBEDIENT WORKS! It is Not Possible! James 2:20 +26

 

[Alabaster]

???? There is NO SAVING FAITH without OBEDIENT WORKS! It is Not Possible! James 2:20 +26

LOL! Saving faith comes first. Therefore it is possible to have saving faith without the works to testify to that faith. Cases in point: the thief on the cross, and people who receive Christ on their deathbeds.

 

[Alabaster]

Is faith necessary for salvation? If so, do you consider having faith a "work"? Is "accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior" a "work"?

Faith in Christ is not a work--at least not by us. It is a gift of God that we receive.

Scripture constantly tells us we must HAVE FAITH. If "having faith" is an act of the will and is NECESSARY for salvation, how can you logically set it apart from all other "acts of righteousness" which you don't consider salvific? Where do you draw the line and why?

It is an act of the will to obey God, which nurtures our faith.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Someone could simply say that faith is necessary for salvation and works are necessary to faith, therefore, works are necessary to salvation.

The issue to me seems to be a misunderstanding of with faith/trust really is from a scriptural standpoint. Faith is scripture is ALWAYS attached to one's way of living and what one does in relationship to obeying GOD. Faith is never portrayed as mere mental acceptance. I believe that when we come to a proper understanding of what faith is, this argument will become moot.

 

[mondar]

Is faith necessary for salvation? If so, do you consider having faith a "work"? Is "accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior" a "work"?

Scripture constantly tells us we must HAVE FAITH. If "having faith" is an act of the will and is NECESSARY for salvation, how can you logically set it apart from all other "acts of righteousness" which you don't consider salvific? Where do you draw the line and why?

Can I chime in? I suspect you already know my views, but anyway....

I would agree that faith is a work. Faith is pleasing to God. Something pleasing to God is a work. In fact faith is more then a work, it is "THE" work.
Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to be well-pleasing unto him; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that seek after him.
Faith is not something neutral, but it is pleasing to God. So then faith is not only a work, but works flow from true faith.

This does not mean works save. Works merely "show me" your faith. I hope you remember the discussions on James 2.

Of course I would also agree with alabaster that faith is a gift. On the other hand, I would not agree that "we receive" the gift of faith. Faith caused by regeneration and we do not receive regeneration. Regeneration is simply the work of God apart from human will.
John 1:13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. In this verse, we again see a birth, or "born." This is the same concept as found in 1 John 2 and 5 (below) that we are "begotton of him."


Faith is our response to the work of God in our heart. When God changes our nature (regeneration) the scriptures calls that "begotten of God.
1John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God: and whosoever loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

This is the same thing as found in the OP when the author mentioned John 6:44, and that the Father "drew" some men.

Back to 1 John 5:1, the same thing occurs in 1 John 2:29
29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one also that doeth righteousness is begotten of him. The idea is that we are "begotten of him" and this causes righteousness.

Of course as with faith and righteousness, while they are both caused by regeneration or being "begotten of him" we neither cooperate with regeneration, or do we in any way cause regeneration. God simply changes our nature, and then we believe.

So then, the grace of God's is prevenient (preceeding) and irresistable in causing regeneration. However, regeneration is not universal.

While both faith and works are generated by the new nature, I would of course maintain that it is the faith that is the human requirement for salvation.

I would love to comment more, but I have to go now.

 

[Drew]

The bolded above is really the only confusing part. The way it's written might lead someone to think you believe that "faith alone" is not a "gift of the Holy Spirit". I think the words "on the basis of" imply that Grace is given ONLY if a person has faith first, and that faith is outside of Grace.

I've read enough of your posts to know you don't believe this to be the case.

Good point. Although I have perhaps not thought this through as much as I might, I will clearly assert the following: I believe that the Bible allows for the view that fallen human beings have some degree of freedom to "reach out and accept" the gift of grace.

So even though God is the substantial author of our rescue, we do indeed have to "freely" accept this gift from God.

 

[Drew]

This does not mean works save. Works merely "show me" your faith. I hope you remember the discussions on James 2.

Although I have not read the James 2 discussion, I suggest that the following text, all by itself, undermines any idea that there is not at least a sense in which "works" - in the sense of good works - do indeed "save". You will almost certainly know which text I will post - we have discussed it repeatedly in the past:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

As you know, I think this text is the "Achilles heel" of the "works are not involved in salvation" position. However, I invite you to present the reasons why we should not take this text at its "plain face value" - which is clearly an assertion that eternal life is given based on "what we do".

Now let's be clear- I am the last one to say that a text should always be taken "literally" and without reference to context.

But, please, let the readers know what sense you make of this particular text.

 

[mondar]

Although I have not read the James 2 discussion, I suggest that the following text, all by itself, undermines any idea that there is not at least a sense in which "works" - in the sense of good works - do indeed "save". You will almost certainly know which text I will post - we have discussed it repeatedly in the past:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

As you know, I think this text is the "Achilles heel" of the "works are not involved in salvation" position. However, I invite you to present the reasons why we should not take this text at its "plain face value" - which is clearly an assertion that eternal life is given based on "what we do".

Now let's be clear- I am the last one to say that a text should always be taken "literally" and without reference to context.

But, please, let the readers know what sense you make of this particular text.

Drew, are you sure you dont wish to simply provide links to other threads where we have discussed this?