Salvation/Works Question...

[Hitch]

I actually agree with you. While I have gotten into this at length, I am convinced that Paul's view of salvation has a "tense" structure - there is a sense in which we are saved at the point of faith, and there is also a sense at which we are saved at the coming judgement as described in Romans 2.

The real problem is when people approach the Bible with a model of salvation that requires the entire thing to collapse onto a single point in time. And for most evangelicals, that point of time is the moment a person professes faith.

The problem is that Paul simply cannot be read that way without doing violence to what he actually wrote. And yet many evangelicals screen out Romans 2:6-7 (which clearly connects the awarding of eternal life to the "good deeds" we have done). Just you watch - the most common strategy is to say that, in Romans 2, Paul is describing a path to salvation which is only hypothetically possible. Another strategy is to suggest that Christians will not be present at the judgement, and are saved on grounds other than the content of their "good deed". Neither of these strategies really work.

Again, watch the elaborate dance many will engage in to try to dimiss Romans 2.

I think we're seeing things as one or the other when that is not the case ,clouded by over application of grace.

Clearasmudeh?

Evegelicals often say the church will not be judged.Which is in a sense true. Eternal life is our birthright. We cant add the the perfect sacrfice Jesus made on our behalf. Rewared, by definition is based on works. We will be rewarded accordingly . So we are not in danger of judgement as regards life or death. While we are liabel for our actions.
Evengelicals will and rightly so point to the thief on the cross when speaking of 'works'. And what they say is true he did nothing . But the application is limited to individuals in similar circumstances, the majority have a life full of actions and choices, after conversion, clearly Paul is conserned with the norm over the exception.
I reckon the heart of the probelm is our American evngelical fatalism, the rapture (sic) will probbly be tomorrow, And no matter what is said, if one believes that to whatever degree, it affects daily living and usually not in agood way.

 

[Drew]

Alabaster:

Exactly.

It says: 'whosoever believeth'.

Please note: This text does not change the truth of Romans 2:6-7 - that eternal life is granted according to "persistence in doing good". Do you believe that Romans 2:6-7 is not scripture, farouk?

Here is the reason why John 3:16 and Romans 2:6-7 harmonize. As per John 3:16, whoever believes will have eternal life. And whoever believes will get the Holy Spirit (Romans 8 and elsewhere), and the Holy Spirit will produce the good works that will count to eternal life at the Romans 2:6-7 judgment.

So John 3:16 in no way undermines what Paul says - final salvation is indeed based on good works.

 

[Drew]

Evegelicals often say the church will not be judged.Which is in a sense true. Eternal life is our birthright. We cant add the the perfect sacrfice Jesus made on our behalf. Rewared, by definition is based on works. We will be rewarded accordingly . So we are not in danger of judgement as regards life or death.

But Paul means what he says:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

How is this not a clear expression of a view that eternal life itself, not just "other rewards", are awarded based on "what we have done" and / or "persistence in doing good"?

 

[Drew]

You MUST take that into consideration. It is obvious that people who do good and do not know Christ are not going to receive eternal life, but damnation.

We're done - this statement shows that either you are not reading my posts, not able to understand what I am saying, or deliberately misrepresenting me.

I see no point in further interaction with you on this matter. To have a proper discussion, both parties need to read, understand, and properly represent what the other has posted.

And I have more than clear on this on repeated occasions: Only those who have faith in Christ will get eternal life.

 

[francisdesales]

But Paul means what he says:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

How is this not a clear expression of a view that eternal life itself, not just "other rewards", are awarded based on "what we have done" and / or "persistence in doing good"?

You know, it's not like this is the only verse in the Bible that says this sort of thing, for example:

And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: 1 Peter 1:17


And yes, the context is eternal life/death, not "greater or lesser rewards"...

Regards

 

[Hitch]

And I have more than clear on this on repeated occasions: Only those who have faith in Christ will get eternal life.


I'll alter this a little ,tell me what you think.

All those who have faith in Christ will get eternal life.

 

[Alabaster]

Please note: This text does not change the truth of Romans 2:6-7 - that eternal life is granted according to "persistence in doing good". Do you believe that Romans 2:6-7 is not scripture, farouk?

Here is the reason why John 3:16 and Romans 2:6-7 harmonize. As per John 3:16, whoever believes will have eternal life. And whoever believes will get the Holy Spirit (Romans 8 and elsewhere), and the Holy Spirit will produce the good works that will count to eternal life at the Romans 2:6-7 judgment.

So John 3:16 in no way undermines what Paul says - final salvation is indeed based on good works.

...for Christians.

 

[Elijah674]

And I have more than clear on this on repeated occasions: Only those who have faith in Christ will get eternal life.


I'll alter this a little ,tell me what you think.

All those who have faith in Christ will get eternal life.

Man is Saved by Loving Working Obedient Fath. Heb. 11:13 Their last Mature act of life. 'Not having received the promises..'

--Elijah

 

[francisdesales]

Man is Saved by Loving Working Obedient Fath. Heb. 11:13 Their last Mature act of life. 'Not having received the promises..'

--Elijah

You hit the nail on the head.

Regards

 

[Scotth1960]

S:

Works are as a result of faith. In fact, the Lord Jesus said, 'By their fruits ye shall know them'.

But this is very different from thinking our good works will somehow earn us favor with God, from the perspective of the believer's salvation.

Truthfully (and nicely) said. We can't earn salvation but true faith will eventually produce some good works. Daily, little by little, here a little, there a little. Growing in grace and the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. It takes time to do the right thing, but we need to repent and do good works in keeping with faith in Christ.:nod

 

[Hitch]

Man is Saved by Loving Working Obedient Fath. Heb. 11:13 Their last Mature act of life. 'Not having received the promises..'

--Elijah

And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

 

[Hitch]

And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

I must do WHAT to be WHAT??

 

[Hitch]

You hit the nail on the head.

Regards

Your 'good works' dont count, you dont go to church on Saturday.

 

[Elijah674]

Re: Salvation/Works Question...

Originally Posted by Elijah674
Man is Saved by Loving Working Obedient Fath. Heb. 11:13 Their last Mature act of life. 'Not having received the promises..'

--Elijah


Me again: And one postor says:
And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Elijah replies: BELIEVE??? First see John 12:42-43 for many who BELIEVED an eternal LOST Belief! And these were REAL Believers!

Again any believer in Christ will HAVE LOVING OBEDIENT WORKING FAITH!

And he wil either DIE IN THAT Heb. 11:13 [[LIVING FAITH,]] or be alive when Christ returns LIVING THAT LOVING WORKING FAITH.

OR?? just be a professed 2 Peter 2:22 'dog turned to his own vomit again..' or a blubbering workless fluke in denial of Christ's Grace & Power.. that'is sufficient for thee'!!! Phil. 4:13 + 2 Cor, 12:9
​

 

[Hitch]

Re: Salvation/Works Question...

Originally Posted by Elijah674
Man is Saved by Loving Working Obedient Fath. Heb. 11:13 Their last Mature act of life. 'Not having received the promises..'

--Elijah


Me again: And one postor says:
And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Elijah replies: BELIEVE??? First see John 12:42-43 for many who BELIEVED an eternal LOST Belief! And these were REAL Believers!

​

Exactly where does it say many who believed {BELIEVED an eternal LOST Belief!} You added that. Do you often add to Scripture? It is possible even one of these men got another chance? Ya know like Peter who denied him ? It doesnt say iether way does it ? And you have no right to add to Scripture.

And
Again any believer in Christ will HAVE LOVING OBEDIENT WORKING FAITH!

And he wil either DIE IN THAT Heb. 11:13 [[LIVING FAITH,]] or be alive when Christ returns LIVING THAT LOVING WORKING FAITH.

OR?? just be a professed 2 Peter 2:22 'dog turned to his own vomit again..' or a blubbering workless fluke in denial of Christ's Grace & Power.. that'is sufficient for thee'!!! Phil. 4:13 + 2 Cor, 12:9

 

[Elijah674]

Exactly where does it say many who believed {BELIEVED an eternal LOST Belief!} You added that. Do you often add to Scripture? It is possible even one of these men got another chance? Ya know like Peter who denied him ? It doesnt say iether way does it ? And you have no right to add to Scripture.


​

John 12:42-43 finds Christ's mission to His ex/fold of Isa. 5 [FIRST!] Matt. 10:5-6, then see verse 3 of Isa. 5 for who or what they were to choose between!

Matt. 23:38 finds this EX/Virgin CHURCH of Christ with a NEW master.. DESOLATE mean Christ is NO LONGER there by their free choice. Matt. 25:10 finds the DOOR OF PROBATION CLOSED to this ex/bride!

Who then takes over any church when Christ has been rejected? see Rev. 3:9 [last virgin fold!] who are SPEWED OUT in ibid. 16.. as a whole DENOMINATION! And who was it that had CEASAR execute Christ? and you say 'all is well' for these ones. 'We have NO KING but Ceasar was [THEIR CRY]' (famous last words! see Luke 12:47-48 + Obad. 1:16... and these ones had drank upon Christ's Holy Mountain!)

Do you see this?? ('i' could say something but you are much more mature than 'i' it seems that you think? 1 John 4:6

Regardless, these ones of John 12:42-43 are seen as ones who made that FATAL FREE WILL CHOICE of Isa. 5:3 ',,JUDGE, [I PRAY YOU,] [BETWIXT ME AND MY VINEYARD].' (and if you don't know what Christ's Virgin Doctrinal Vineyare WAS? see verse 7!

Here are the ones that you believe were given another chance? (and 'i' do not!)
I do believe that the ones of Matt. 23:15 had some who might of matured & left before the 70AD slaughter of old Israel though? 39 years gives quite some time for the growth of the 'babes'.

'Nevertheless among the chief rulers also [many believed on him]; but because of the Pharisees [they did not confess him,]...

(it seems that there was to be more than just talk talk & more talk seen there to make up True Agaph Saving FAITH! belief without ACTION is dead!)

... least they should be [put out of their synagogue:] (they Loved Christ, huh!) For [THEY LOVED THE PRAISE OF MEN MORE THAN THE PRAISE OF GOD].'

And you are going to save these ones?? See Matt. 10:5 & 6, and then verse 15 & see the two/fold Prophecy of Eze. 9 for your maybe later ones.

--Elijah

 

[Drew]

And I have more than clear on this on repeated occasions: Only those who have faith in Christ will get eternal life.


I'll alter this a little ,tell me what you think.

All those who have faith in Christ will get eternal life.

I am not sure I can sign up to this without careful qualification. Paul means what he says here (I will continue to hammer home this text since so many Christians screen it out):

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

So does a person who claims to believe that Jesus is lord and saviour and remains in his sinful ways have salvation? I doubt it. I can only agree with your re-formulation if we agree that a person "with faith" is a person with "faith that manifests itself in a transformed life".

 

[Hitch]

John 12:42-43 finds Christ's mission to His ex/fold of Isa. 5 [FIRST!] Matt. 10:5-6, then see verse 3 of Isa. 5 for who or what they were to choose between!

Matt. 23:38 finds this EX/Virgin CHURCH of Christ with a NEW master.. DESOLATE mean Christ is NO LONGER there by their free choice. Matt. 25:10 finds the DOOR OF PROBATION CLOSED to this ex/bride!

Who then takes over any church when Christ has been rejected? see Rev. 3:9 [last virgin fold!] who are SPEWED OUT in ibid. 16.. as a whole DENOMINATION! And who was it that had CEASAR execute Christ? and you say 'all is well' for these ones. 'We have NO KING but Ceasar was [THEIR CRY]' (famous last words! see Luke 12:47-48 + Obad. 1:16... and these ones had drank upon Christ's Holy Mountain!)

Do you see this?? ('i' could say something but you are much more mature than 'i' it seems that you think? 1 John 4:6

Regardless, these ones of John 12:42-43 are seen as ones who made that FATAL FREE WILL CHOICE of Isa. 5:3 ',,JUDGE, [I PRAY YOU,] [BETWIXT ME AND MY VINEYARD].' (and if you don't know what Christ's Virgin Doctrinal Vineyare WAS? see verse 7!

Here are the ones that you believe were given another chance?

Hey chump where does my post say that?

(and 'i' do not!)
I do believe that the ones of Matt. 23:15 had some who might of matured & left before the 70AD slaughter of old Israel though? 39 years gives quite some time for the growth of the 'babes'.

'Nevertheless among the chief rulers also [many believed on him]; but because of the Pharisees [they did not confess him,]...

(it seems that there was to be more than just talk talk & more talk seen there to make up True Agaph Saving FAITH! belief without ACTION is dead!)

I dont care what 'seems' to you. Nothing give you th eright to add to scripture and I've noticed in the mind boggleing mishmash of childishly over used editing, that you often and carelessly present your own altered versions of passages to appear as though they were in fact a part of scripture, tsk tsk.

... least they should be [put out of their synagogue:] (they Loved Christ, huh!) For [THEY LOVED THE PRAISE OF MEN MORE THAN THE PRAISE OF GOD].'

And you are going to save these ones?? See Matt. 10:5 & 6, and then verse 15 & see the two/fold Prophecy of Eze. 9 for your maybe later ones.

--Elijah

Yawn; show me where SCRIPTUREs says they did not repent

And can the technicolor will ya?

 

[Hitch]

I am not sure I can sign up to this without careful qualification. Paul means what he says here (I will continue to hammer home this text since so many Christians screen it out):

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. You already know Paul will not contradict Jesus

So does a person who claims to believe that Jesus is lord and saviour and remains in his sinful ways have salvation? I doubt it. I can only agree with your re-formulation if we agree that a person "with faith" is a person with "faith that manifests itself in a transformed life".

By necessity then it becomes a matter of subjective judgement on our part. That is some scary turf. One gets saved and his life is completely changed ,he grows strong and faithful in every way. Another gets saved and lives his life a constant struggle with what ever he was in when called.
If God has called one to be a leader and one to struggle who are we to judge God? Can we see from God's vantage who is more useful ,who is more faithful?
That is not to say that occasionally we will not be required to render a judgement, but this is and must always be based on the outward actions that are clear violations of the Law. Otherwise there is always one who witnesses more ,prays more gvies more than you. Are you then condemned?

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.



Paul will not contradict Chirst just as Paul will not write anything that is not true and valued as the scripture it is. This brings us back to what was first mentioned, its not a matter of one or the other,its both. Certainly the fact that God will grant eternal life to those in faithful obdience do good works has no effect at all on the value and perfection of the vicarious sacrifice. That being what we grasp when we say we believe in Jesus.
Imagine John had died and stands before the throne; How does he respond to the question ;Why should you enter?
As great as John was and as closely as he literally walked with the Lord his response is the same as the thief's.
As the old hymn says; 'But that Thy blood was shed for me.'


Thats a long way to get here, but I reckon you and I are pretty close on this.

H

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

An issue christians have with the concept of works is that somehow it seems that we have been conditioned to believe that works somehow equate to deserving or earning salvation thus nullifying grace.
Just because someone does the work required to get something does not necesarily mean that those works merit that reward. It simply means that the one who offers the reward has decided that should one do the work, He will give him the reward.
Remember that God through Jesus makes a "contract" to save men provided that men will believe in and follow His Son faithfully. Does this mean man deserves salvation? No! What it means is that salvation is available, BUT ON GOD's TERMS!