SALVATION

[Panin]

You said the work of grace and works is based entirely on the holy spirit (which I agree with) then you ended with saying works is essential for salvation. You have not clarified (in this post at least) if these works are manifested by the holy spirit or if these works are manifested out of a motivation to earn/keep/maintain your salvation and you have made it clear that the later is self motivation in other post, which is clearly a contradiction. So stop playing around, you know the fundametal differences in the debate that has been going on for nearly 7o pages now. If you are no going to play dumb I see little point in continuing a discussion with you.

Please do not blame me for your failure to exercise care in your reading.

I have repeatedly stated, including in a recent direct answer to you, that it is the Spirit who produces these works. Where have I ever said anything that suggests otherwise? I believe I have been entirely consistent about this.

Yes you have quoted scripture, and the scripture is clear, but you have added an incorrect interpretation by adding works as an essential part of salvation. I and others on the other hand have clearly stated (in agreement with the scripture) That works are a supernatural occurence of salvation, IE the fruit of the spirit that resides within. You have clearly been stating along the lines that said works are manufactured in an attempt to maintain and earn your salvation.

Are you now running and ducking for cover or what??? You've been pegged down, deal with the issue clearly and precisiely. You can not have grace alone and then add works to it, now this may only be a matter of semantics, but I very much doubt that, given the past history of this debate.

Aslo please define works, you have ignored this again aswell.

 

[Drew]

Yes you have quoted scripture, and the scripture is clear, but you have added an incorrect interpretation by adding works as an essential part of salvation.

Surely you must understand that I not believe this interpretation of mine is incorrect. And I have provided detailed arguments as to why I think it is correct. You are begging the question.

I and others on the other hand have clearly stated (in agreement with the scripture) That works are a supernatural occurence of salvation, IE the fruit of the spirit that resides within. You have clearly been stating along the lines that said works are manufactured in an attempt to maintain and earn your salvation.

I am only following Paul:

7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Tell me, Panin, what do you think Paul means by this statement? It certainly appears to sustain the very position for which I have been arguing.

Are you now running and ducking for cover or what??? You've been pegged down, deal with the issue clearly and precisiely. You can not have grace alone and then add works to it,

Not on your model, no. But I am interested in what Paul has to say. And Paul says the works are the inevitable accompaniment of grace (Romans 8). So, while you may see a contradiction between grace and works, Paul certainly does not.

And I really do not see in what sense I am “running for cover†or have been “pegged downâ€. You think I have been caught in some sort of contradiction. But it is only a contradiction in your eyes, not Paul’s.

Aslo please define works, you have ignored this again aswell.

When Paul refers to “worksâ€, he usually is referring to the practices associated with the Law of Moses as given to the Jews at Mount Sinai. Sometimes, he uses “works†to refer to “good moral conduct†without specific reference to the written code of the Law of Moses. When Paul talks about being “saved by worksâ€, as he does in Romans 2, and Romans 8, and 2 Corinthians 5, he is talking about “good works†in general, and not about the works of the Law of Moses.

 

[shad]

Huh? We arent the ones saying we can save oursleves, you are? What efforts are you making and how do you now your efforts are good enough to get you into heaveni?

Why do you correct Jesus' word? Jesus says to make every effort to get into God's kingdom. You have been saying you cannot be saved by good works. Without making effort (work) you will not make into heaven or He will not tell us to make every effort. This is Jesus' word. You guys are making up your own salvation.

 

[glorydaz]

Huh? We arent the ones saying we can save oursleves, you are? What efforts are you making and how do you now your efforts are good enough to get you into heaveni?

Why do you correct Jesus' word? Jesus says to make every effort to get into God's kingdom. You have been saying you cannot be saved by good works. Without making effort (work) you will not make into heaven or He will not tell us to make every effort. This is Jesus' word. You guys are making up your own salvation.

Show me the verse you keep harping on, Shad. I'm thinking it may be the only one you know.

If you're talking, Seek ye first the kingdom of God, you got it wrong.
This "make every effot" just isn't ringing any bells....I want to see the verse.

 

[shad]

Show me the verse you keep harping on, Shad. I'm thinking it may be the only one you know.

If you're talking, Seek ye first the kingdom of God, you got it wrong.
This "make every effot" just isn't ringing any bells....I want to see the verse.

Here you go which I already showed you but you have been ignoring. that's why I have been repeating.

Luke 13:24
He said to them, "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.

.

 

[glorydaz]

This is an example of your logic. Paul makes a point to say we are all labourers together in the harvest and yet, you say he was not talking "human beings in general". You're simply wrong, and yet you seem so surprised that we all don't just jump and accept what you say as Gospel.

I doubt that I am wrong. The very text you provided shows that Paul is talking about those charged with ministry of the gospel - he is not talking about humen beings in general here and he is not talking about good works in general. The subject here is the responsibility of church leaders to faithfully tell the gospel.

Now as to the "every man" in verse 5, which you underline. I do not know what version you are using, but note the NASB rendering. It does not use the term "every man", but rather "each one" in a context where it is otherwise clear that church leaders, in particular are being addressed. In this respect, note how verse 6 very specifically identifies the role of Paul and Apollos as leaders.

What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one. 6I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth.

And again, later in the passage, your translation has "every man" receiving a reward. But that is not what the NASB says - in this rendering it is crystal clear that Paul is confining his analysis to those who are performing the tasks of churh leadership:

So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth. 8Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will (O)receive his own reward according to his own labor.

Translation issues aside, it is fascinating here that you seem to think the "everyone" means literally everyone, when you make precisely the opposite move in Romans 2, to evade the application of the Romans 2 judgement to believers.

Problem is that in Romans 2, context gives no justification for restricting scope, whereas this is not the case in this text from 1 Cor 3 - Paul has clearly established a context where the behaviour of church leaders, in particular, is at issue.

Everyone and every man...same thing. (I use KJV...not a thing wrong with my translation) In Romans 2, it does not say either of those. It says Those who seek by doing good....as opposed to those who obey the law...either way, they have to be PERFECT to obtain eternal life by either method.

 

[glorydaz]

Hi Ed. I do like your response. I was going to lock this thread but I'd to like to see some responses to your post. :yes

John 6:28,29

Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

I'd like to see that, too. We've used this verse many times and it's kinda ignored.

 

[Drew]

Everyone and every man...same thing. (I use KJV...not a thing wrong with my translation) In Romans 2, it does not say either of those. It says Those who seek by doing good....as opposed to those who obey the law...either way, they have to be PERFECT to obtain eternal life by either method.

You have not addressed your inconsistency wherein, in Romans 2, you take this statement:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done."

...and introduce an unstated qualifier to transform it into this:

God "will give to each person, except Christains, according to what he has done."

And yet here, in the 1 Corinthians text, you say "every one" means "all believers" when the context shows that he is clearly talking about leaders in particular, such as himself and Apollos. If readers look at all the translations, you will see that the KJV is in the distinct minority in respect to the phrase that the KJV has rendered as "every man". The overwhelming majority of translations render this as "each one" or some variant. And in context, it is clear that Paul is limiting his treatment to leaders. The NET translation is this:

The one who plants and the one who waters work as one, 1 but each will receive his reward according to his work.

I am sorry gd, but if you show this statement to any literate english person, they will say that "each one" is limited in scope to "those who plant and water" - that is, church leaders and evangelists.

 

[Drew]

Everyone and every man...same thing. (I use KJV...not a thing wrong with my translation) In Romans 2, it does not say either of those. It says Those who seek by doing good....as opposed to those who obey the law...either way, they have to be PERFECT to obtain eternal life by either method.

No. I havea addressed the "every man" issue in my previous post. And I have no idea what you are saying about Romans 2. I agree that in Romans 2:7, Paul says that it is those who "do good" who get eternal life.

But you then make this bald statement that "either way, they have to be perfect to obtain eternal life". I challenge you to defend the assertion that people need to be "perfect", in respect to good works, to obtain eternal life.

 

[Drew]

Hi Ed. I do like your response. I was going to lock this thread but I'd to like to see some responses to your post. :yes

John 6:28,29

Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

I'd like to see that, too. We've used this verse many times and it's kinda ignored.

It has not been ignored. Please read the thread.

I addressed this text in full.

 

[Free]

John 6:28,29

Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. (ESV)

If works merely means believing in "the one he has sent," then what is the faith that James is referring to?

 

[Drew]

either way, they have to be PERFECT to obtain eternal life by either method.

While we wait to see if anyone can support the idea that we need to be "perfect" in respect to good works to be saved, here is a statement from Revelation that directly challenges such a view:

Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

The life to come is itself a continuation of God's work - the nations are still subject to healing. This is kind of hard to reconcile with the notion that "everything is perfect" in the world to come.

 

[glorydaz]

Instead of implying that the likes of me be muzzled, why not engage the substance of my arguments. For example, do you think Eph 2:8-9 denies ultimate justification by good works? Well, if you are right in such an interpretation, it should be an easy task to engage my argument and disclose where I have gone astray.

Please, go ahead and do so.

Okay...here ya go. Looks pretty straight-forward to me. Even the most simple of men would be able to understand what this verse is saying. I doubt the Lord's intention is to expect the reader to see some reference to the Torah here.

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Paul is addressing these...the gentiles claimed good works and the Jews claimed following the law. He's already told them all men sin and railed on both sides for being sinners. He's said they're the same ...whichever method they use there is still sin to be dealt with. Paul has hearers that heard the entire message...not just this one verse. They knew what Paul was saying, just as most hearers do.
BTW...This verse does not say, as you claim, they "will be given eternal life". Eternal life is simply a description of immortality...the word preceeding it. They seek after glory and honor and immortality.

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

 

[glorydaz]

I've noticed this on other threads, as well.
These works-based faith people do like to judge.

How am I judging?

Oh...let's see.

You do nothing but judge, Shad. Don't make me go back and quote you, it's too much work.
If we wait a half a second, you'll do it again. :biglaugh

 

[Son of Israel]

I'M SAVED BY FAITH!

(just had to say that, in case anyone cared)

 

[Solo]

All who know the blessed salvation of God by His grace through faith in Christ Jesus work recognize the futility in debating with fools for they will never hear or see the truth of God's Word. Works of sinners never brings salvation, and the Word of God does not teach Salvation by works. Only by the work of Jesus Christ can one be saved; and that salvation is gained by believing in Jesus Christ. Good works follow those who are born again, born of God, as it is the new creature who cannot sin who performs these good works. Only those born of God can produce good works. Again, good works follow those who are born again after they are saved.

 

[Drew]

Okay...here ya go. Looks pretty straight-forward to me. Even the most simple of men would be able to understand what this verse is saying. I doubt the Lord's intention is to expect the reader to see some reference to the Torah here.

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I have addressed this in gory detail. Torah is explicitly mentioned in about verse 15 and, as per an argument that no one will actually engage (Interesting, I have posted it twice and no one has engaged it.....I wonder why?).

I will not repeat what I have already repeated twice.

 

[Solo]

I'M SAVED BY FAITH!

(just had to say that, in case anyone cared)

As are all who are born of God. No one is saved by works.

 

[Son of Israel]

I'M SAVED BY FAITH!

(just had to say that, in case anyone cared)

As are all who are born of God. No one is saved by works.

Nice footer solo...
I confess that Jesus Christ is come in my flesh!

 

[Panin]

Yes you have quoted scripture, and the scripture is clear, but you have added an incorrect interpretation by adding works as an essential part of salvation.

Surely you must understand that I not believe this interpretation of mine is incorrect. And I have provided detailed arguments as to why I think it is correct. You are begging the question.

I and others on the other hand have clearly stated (in agreement with the scripture) That works are a supernatural occurence of salvation, IE the fruit of the spirit that resides within. You have clearly been stating along the lines that said works are manufactured in an attempt to maintain and earn your salvation.

I am only following Paul:

7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Tell me, Panin, what do you think Paul means by this statement? It certainly appears to sustain the very position for which I have been arguing.

Are you now running and ducking for cover or what??? You've been pegged down, deal with the issue clearly and precisiely. You can not have grace alone and then add works to it,

Not on your model, no. But I am interested in what Paul has to say. And Paul says the works are the inevitable accompaniment of grace (Romans 8). So, while you may see a contradiction between grace and works, Paul certainly does not.

And I really do not see in what sense I am “running for cover†or have been “pegged downâ€. You think I have been caught in some sort of contradiction. But it is only a contradiction in your eyes, not Paul’s.

Aslo please define works, you have ignored this again aswell.

When Paul refers to “worksâ€, he usually is referring to the practices associated with the Law of Moses as given to the Jews at Mount Sinai. Sometimes, he uses “works†to refer to “good moral conduct†without specific reference to the written code of the Law of Moses. When Paul talks about being “saved by worksâ€, as he does in Romans 2, and Romans 8, and 2 Corinthians 5, he is talking about “good works†in general, and not about the works of the Law of Moses.

Your drawing avery long Bow, no scratch that, your lieing by saying Paul preaches salvation through works. Shame on you. I know multitudes if non christians who persist in doing good, not to mention 99 percent of the relgious minded people of the world.

There is no salvation in works. NONE else Christ would not have come and died a horrendous death on the cross. You are wrong and I hope your eyes are being from this thread.