Salvation

[Nathan]

You are confused. Salvation is a noun, not a verb. Nouns don't have tenses. In this case it's a noun based on the outcome, result or completion of the verb "to save".

"to destruct" (verb) - destruction (noun).
"to redeem" (verb) - redemption (noun)
Etc.

But here's what an expert on the Greek grammar of what our Lord God said in the 1st Century (what you call "NT writings", which Peter and the rest of us calls NT Scripture but you also are confused over and refuse to call Scripture):

Mark 5:34 (YLT) and he said to her, `Daughter, thy faith hath saved thee; go away in peace, and be whole from thy plague.'​

Here the verb saved (perfect tense)

"is in the perfect - the saving is complete - it happened in the past and is now being viewed as completed, giving rise to the state of salvation"​

Salvation is the noun form of the perfectly completed action.

​

http://a.co/4LZY9Mt

Thoughts???

I have a lot of thoughts, not least of which is my disgust in your feeble attempt to accusingly lure me into an argument. I'd like to stick to the topic of salvation.

I was not asking what the tense of the word is, but rather is it a past, present, future, or combination of all three - reality. King David was a noun, but we can say if he was a past, present, future, or combination of all three - reality.

 

[chessman]

I was not asking what the tense of the word is, but rather is it a past, present, future, or combination of all three - reality.

And I posted a quote from a NT Greek Scripture schloar (Jeremy Duff, The Elements of NT Greek) that precisely answers your question.
http://a.co/4LZY9Mt

King David was a noun

David is a noun (not was). So is salvation.

I'd like to stick to the topic of salvation.

Me too. It's an interesting topic for any Theology student. Which is why my reply addresses the topic

Duff says the NT presents salvation as:

" the saving [in it's perfect verb tense form] is complete - it happened in the past and is now being viewed as completed, giving rise to the state of salvation"

Thoughts?

 

[Nathan]

And I posted a quote from a NT Greek Scripture schloar (Jeremy Duff, The Elements of NT Greek) that precisely answers your question.
http://a.co/4LZY9Mt


David is a noun (not was). So is salvation.


Me too. It's an interesting topic for any Theology student. Which is why my reply addresses the topic

Duff says the NT presents salvation as:

Thoughts?

" the saving [in it's perfect verb tense form] is complete - it happened in the past and is now being viewed as completed, giving rise to the state of salvation"

What is the saving - that happened in the past?

What is the "state" of salvation?

 

[chessman]

What is the saving - that happened in the past?

The action (the verb), that occurred
In this case healing (saving):

What is the "state" of salvation?

The changed (and completed by the way) condition a saved person finds himself/herself in after being "saved" (i.e. SalvaTION, the noun resulting from the verb).

Notice, how I will now provide the necessary Scriptural evidence (the very words from God, The Son's revealed Scripture to Mark in this particular case) for my answer to your questions:

Mark 5:34 (YLT) and he [Jesus, God] said to her, `Daughter, thy faith hath saved thee; go away in peace, and be whole from thy plague.'​

This "daughter" is now (not might be later) in a condition of "peace" and "wholeness" (i.e. she has "Salvation") after being "saved" from her plaque.

It's the same for "everyone" who is "saved" through Him, too:

John 3:16-18 For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world in order that he should judge the world, but in order that the world should be saved through him. The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God. ​

Again, you asked in your OP what salvation is. I've answered the question and provided the Scriptures to support it.

What is salvation according to you??? Your OP should have stated your position on the topic and provided Biblical support for it but didn't.

Would you do that now? I'm interested on your thoughts on what salvation is, especially if you bring Scripture to the conversation.

[BTW, we are not adversaries nor arguing opponents. I appreciate (and agree with) 95% of your posted comments on this forum (not that that makes either of us right). And have enjoyed your contributions. I wonder why you broached the subject of "What is salvation?" if it's something you've studied and have Biblical insight to share.]

 

[Kidron]

Salvation is the gift-act of God reestablishing you into relationship with Him, by accepting your faith to then redeem you with His Blood.
He does all of it.
Your part is to be redeemed and to be thankful and live holy.
= After you are redeemed, you are to behave as if you are.
"Salvation".

Within the fact of your salvation, you are to understand that you are now a "joint heir" with Jesus, and you have access to all God has, all God is, and all God can do for you and through you.
Not understanding your "position" as a joint heir and what this has attained and established for you, is why most Christians live way below in spirituality and power and prosperity and blessing what was made possible via their atonement.

Ask yourself...."What is Christ NOW"?
What is He now?
Well, He's not the suffering slain lamb.......but rather He is the KING of GLORY who is about to return.
So, you are established by His Blood as His "joint Heir"....so, you are the heir of a KING.
And not just any King.
This is why your bible tells you " as Jesus IS (right now) so are YOU on this earth".

If you can believe your bible, and begin to see that you are already a Child of Heaven with access to "Abba", then you can become in your own mind what God has determined you are in His view.
Once you do that, all thoughts about losing it, and living in poverty as His will, and all sorts of JUNK you've been led to believe by the devil, will leave your life and your point of view.

 

[Nathan]

The action (the verb), that occurred
In this case healing (saving):


The changed (and completed by the way) condition a saved person finds himself/herself in after being "saved" (i.e. SalvaTION, the noun resulting from the verb).

Notice, how I will now provide the necessary Scriptural evidence (the very words from God, The Son's revealed Scripture to Mark in this particular case) for my answer to your questions:

Mark 5:34 (YLT) and he [Jesus, God] said to her, `Daughter, thy faith hath saved thee; go away in peace, and be whole from thy plague.'​

This "daughter" is now (not might be later) in a condition of "peace" and "wholeness" (i.e. she has "Salvation") after being "saved" from her plaque.

It's the same for "everyone" who is "saved" through Him, too:

John 3:16-18 For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world in order that he should judge the world, but in order that the world should be saved through him. The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God. ​

Again, you asked in your OP what salvation is. I've answered the question and provided the Scriptures to support it.

What is salvation according to you??? Your OP should have stated your position on the topic and provided Biblical support for it but didn't.

Would you do that now? I'm interested on your thoughts on what salvation is, especially if you bring Scripture to the conversation.

[BTW, we are not adversaries nor arguing opponents. I appreciate (and agree with) 95% of your posted comments on this forum (not that that makes either of us right). And have enjoyed your contributions. I wonder why you broached the subject of "What is salvation?" if it's something you've studied and have Biblical insight to share.]

My intent was to find out what everyone else viewed salvation as. We have been having quite a few discussions on it, so I wanted to get a baseline for what people thought it was. I really did not intend to have a ongoing discussion about it, but rather just an idea of others beliefs.

As far as what I know - 'salvation' is the state of being saved. That is the literal definition of the word that we read. A one word definition would be "deliverance". However, salvation is an act that is carried out ONLY by a savior - it is not a combination of more than one thing. Salvation implies complete(not partial) helplessness and need of complete(not partial) saving.

It can be used for many different things actually;

Moses used it in describing that God would "save" or "deliver" the children of Israel from the Egyptians. When Moses used the word, it was to describe what God was going to do in removing the Egyptian threat from them completely - and by Himself alone. This was done when the children of Israel thought there was no way to be saved from the Egyptians. Exodus 14

Saul used it in describing that God would "save" or "deliver" the children of Israel from the Ammonites, when they believed(again) there was no way to be saved from them. 1 Samuel 11

These are just two examples, but there are many more. The point is that "salvation" is being saved/delivered from something.

So the question is, does God only save us from death/perishing? Or is His salvation on us more than that?

 

[Cygnus]

Romans 2:5 - 11 tells us we store up wrath for ourselves. In other words, God doesn't send us to Hell , we send ourselves.

So, what does God save us from? Perhaps he saves us from ourselves.

If we look at the whole of scripture, God is in the business of transformation. In other words, we used to lie but now we tell the truth. We used to steal, but now we work and give to those in need. Yes, when we have faith that the way of Jesus is the best way to live, we no longer conform to this world and we are transformed. Some would call this sanctification.

When we sin Against our neighbor, there is a price to pay. When we learn what it means to love our neighbor and we live it out, then we no longer sin against our neighbor, and we are saved from the wrath we store up against ourselves. On some cases, we are saved from road rage, or getting shot, or brutally injured. Yes, we are saved fro. These types of calamities by Jesus because we obeyed the Holy Spirit who guided us through it.

Sorry StoveBolts but I have to disagree with this post.
I thought it was the blood of Christ that washes away our sins. From your post it sounds like your saying all we have to do is stop sinning and do good, forgive and we avoid the wrath.
Secondly, We are born condemned. Perhaps the only way we send our selves to hell is because we are all in Adam.

 

[Cygnus]

So the question is, does God only save us from death/perishing? Or is His salvation on us more than that?

I would say...yes, but technically speaking God through His providence could cause your car to slow down and cause you to avoid an accident...saving you...from injury.

 

[Nathan]

I would say...yes, but technically speaking God through His providence could cause your car to slow down and cause you to avoid an accident...saving you...from injury.

Yes to which question?

 

[stovebolts]

Sorry StoveBolts but I have to disagree with this post.
I thought it was the blood of Christ that washes away our sins. From your post it sounds like your saying all we have to do is stop sinning and do good, forgive and we avoid the wrath.
Secondly, We are born condemned. Perhaps the only way we send our selves to hell is because we are all in Adam.

First, I don't buy into the idea we are born condemned. If you believe so strong in your heart that we are, then our differences would only cause division between us. On the matter, let us just move along.

For your second point, you seem to be reading a works based salvation tone on my post. Rest assured that it is of your own concern. And so I shall address that concern.

We are saved by Grace, and not of works for we are His workmanship created for good works that He would be glorified.

Our faith has much to do with our salvation. Do we believe Jesus is the son of God? Even the demons believe and shudder. Yet they do not have a saving faith for they willingly do contrary to the will of the Father.

Peter had faith that He could do what Jesus was doing, and by faith he stepped out of the boat. But we all second guess ourselves don't we? We all have doubts and fears. How can we be like Jesus? And our faith is weakened. When we falter, Jesus is there to keep us from drowning in our own doubts and insecurities and to remind us that we can have a strong faith.

This plays out in our day to day life. When we are cursed, we bless. This is contra to the flesh that wants to curse those who curse us. It takes faith to bless those who curse us, and that faith is the same saving faith that saves in so many ways because it's a transformative faith.

So no, we do not earn our salvation, but we do live into the faith that saves us and that saving grace is seen by the fruit it bears.

 

[Cygnus]

First, I don't buy into the idea we are born condemned. If you believe so strong in your heart that we are, then our differences would only cause division between us. On the matter, let us just move along.

Thank you for your reply. Your original post sounded like works played a part in our salvation.

As to the condemned issue.....I starts a new thread asking that question.

 

[chessman]

As far as what I know - 'salvation' is the state of being saved.

2 Peter 3:15 And regard the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as also our dear brother Paul wrote to you, according to the wisdom that was given to him,​

Both Peter and Paul and other Bible believers (such as myself and Jeremy Duff) reading (and importantly believing) the wisdom that God gave to us in the NT Scripture, regard salvation as "the patience of our Lord".

How does our definition fit in with yours, if it does?

 

[Nathan]

2 Peter 3:15 And regard the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as also our dear brother Paul wrote to you, according to the wisdom that was given to him,​

Both Peter and Paul and other Bible believers (such as myself and Jeremy Duff) reading (and importantly believing) the wisdom that God gave to us in the NT Scripture, regard salvation as "the patience of our Lord".

How does our definition fit in with yours, if it does?

[edited]

Peter actually said count the patience of our Lord as salvation, not count salvation as the patience of our Lord. There is a difference.

Think of it this way, if I told my wife "I did the laundry today because of my love for you", she very doubtfully would believe that only through doing laundry is how I love her. In other words, she would not think in her mind that I said "my love for you is when I do laundry".

In order to get a solid grasp on what Peter was saying we only need to look at what he followed this statement up with;

2Pe 3:17
You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.

We see that Peter is saying, that one 'way' God shows us His salvation is through His patience with us. It is in His patience He is saving us. We have to remember what the very basic definition of salvation is - saved/delivered.

Another way, in which Paul said the same thing, is this;

Act 17:30
The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,

 

[Jim Parker]

What is salvation to you?

What does it mean to me???
Who cares?
What does scripture say salvation is?
From the beginning:

The disease:
Adam and Eve were told that they would die if they ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. (Gen 2:17)
They ate it and they died and their bodies decayed and returned to the dust from which they were created. (Gen 3:19)
The disease is death.

The cure:
God the Logos became man, lived in perfect obedience to the Father, and was crucified and died never having sinned. (Any Gospel)
Since He had no sin, death could not hold him and He was raised to life.
By doing so He destroyed the power of death to hold mankind.
All will be raised from death immortal and incorruptible (won't decay, get old, break down, wear out. etc.) (1Cor 15: 52-57)
The cure is immortality and incorruption and we (all mankind) are saved from death.

Now, where we all spend eternity, that's a different question which is addressed in several places in scripture.
For example:
Mat 25:31-46; Jhn 3:36; 5:28-29; 8:51; Ro 6:2-10; 8:12-14; 2Cor 5:10; 1 Pet 1:17; 1 John 2:17; Rev 20:12-13; 22:12 - 14)

iakov the fool

 

[Douglas Summers]

All this talk back and forth about salvation got me to thinking...........do we even know what "salvation" is?

What is salvation to you?

Is is something absolute or relative?

Can the definition of it change?

Sometimes it helps to start with the basics.

Salvation is the all inclusive word that covers all that God accomplished on the cross through Jesus Christ. It covers Justification, sanctification, propitiation, righteousness, adoption as sons and so on.(Rom. 3:21-25) If you are asking what we are saved from, it is from the wrath of God that on a certain day he will judge all mankind.(Rom. 5:9)

 

[chessman]

Peter actually said count the patience of our Lord as salvation, not count salvation as the patience of our Lord. There is a difference.

Think of it this way, if I told my wife "I did the laundry today ...

I prefer to think of the patience of our Lord as salvation.

Your doing laundry analogy 'lost me' anyway (pun intended) but it's not relevant to what Peter said. We are to regard His patience as salvation (period), all laundry aside.

There is no difference in regarding salvation as His patience versus His patience as salvation (even given your analogy). I can go back and edit my statement if you can show a Biblical contradiction between my statement versus Peter's. But you've not done so with your analogy.

There is no difference in counting 1 + 1 = 2 or counting 2 = 1 + 1 (Same thing, quite literally)

In order to get a solid grasp on what Peter was saying we only need to look at what he followed this statement up with;

Umm, you might want to rethink that "only" part.
Since the verse started with an "and" maybe the previous portion is helpful (not to mention the one you skipped where Peter again refers to Paul's Letters with the "rest of" Scripture they had received from both the prophets and their apostles):

2 Peter 3:14 Therefore, dear friends, because you are waiting for these things, make every effort to be found at peace, spotless and unblemished in him and ...​

V14 and v15 are literally part of one long sentence in the Greek. Many translations don't break his points up into two sentences anyway.

2 Peter 3:14-15 (NASB) Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, ... [v16 is also in the same sentence]​

What things??? And this verse has a "therefore" in it too (tying his thought even further back). Maybe we can get an even fuller understanding of his point from the previous passage too.

2 Peter 3:13 But according to his promise, we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness resides.​

Oh my, what promise and another conjunction? (This Theology stuff is a lot harder than doing laundry).

We see that Peter is saying, that one 'way' God shows us His salvation is through His patience with us.

His patience = salvation. That's my point.

The verse says to regard His "patience" (His lond-suffering) AS salvation.

The word in the Greek literally means long-suffering or long-passion. Get it? We should regard the long-suffering of Christ as salvation. And I do just that.

 

[Nathan]

I prefer to think of the patience of our Lord as salvation.

Your doing laundry analogy 'lost me' anyway (pun intended) but it's not relevant to what Peter said. We are to regard His patience as salvation (period), all laundry aside.

There is no difference in regarding salvation as His patience versus His patience as salvation (even given your analogy). I can go back and edit my statement if you can show a Biblical contradiction between my statement versus Peter's. But you've not done so with your analogy.

There is no difference in counting 1 + 1 = 2 or counting 2 = 1 + 1 (Same thing, quite literally)


Umm, you might want to rethink that "only" part.
Since the verse started with an "and" maybe the previous portion is helpful (not to mention the one you skipped where Peter again refers to Paul's Letters with the "rest of" Scripture they had received from both the prophets and their apostles):

2 Peter 3:14 Therefore, dear friends, because you are waiting for these things, make every effort to be found at peace, spotless and unblemished in him and ...​

V14 and v15 are literally part of one long sentence in the Greek. Many translations don't break his points up into two sentences anyway.

2 Peter 3:14-15 (NASB) Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, ... [v16 is also in the same sentence]​

What things??? And this verse has a "therefore" in it too (tying his thought even further back). Maybe we can get an even fuller understanding of his point from the previous passage too.

2 Peter 3:13 But according to his promise, we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness resides.​

Oh my, what promise and another conjunction? (This Theology stuff is a lot harder than doing laundry).


His patience = salvation. That's my point.

The verse says to regard His "patience" (His lond-suffering) AS salvation.

The word in the Greek literally means long-suffering or long-passion. Get it? We should regard the long-suffering of Christ as salvation. And I do just that.

Your ridicule is not lost on me.

1 John 3:10
By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.