Santa!

[destiny]

Soma-site is that you in the avatar? :smt107

 

[bibleberean]

BB, you're really starting to tick me off. I suppose if I take my children to Disney World and don't tell them there's really a freckle faced kid behind that mouse costume and that Cinderella is actually a girl making money for college then I'm lying to them. Why don't we just destroy all children's fantasies. When my child says they're going to be an astronaut, I'm going to say, "Well, probably not because very few people who even have the qualifications for being an astronaut ever become one and the odds are very unlikely. But if you try there's a slim chance you can be one."

I mean, I'd hate to be lying to my kids...

BL

Greetings Blue Lightning,

When you take your kids to Disneyland or read them a story you are not lying to them unless you tell them a lie.

I have read ficitonal stories to my kids but they knew that they were fictional just like they know a cartoon character isn't real.

All I said was that deliberately telling kids Santa is a real person with supernatural powers is a lie.

I didn't intend to "tick you off".

I am simply saying that it is wrong to lie to your children.

It wasn't directed at you personally.

In His service,

Robert

 

[Soma-Sight]

The Bible condenms Christmas Trees!

Jeremiah 10, verses 2-4, where God says "the customs of the peoples are delusion, because it is wood cut from the forest, the work of the hands of a craftsman with a cutting tool. They decorate it with silver and gold, they fasten it with nails and a hammer so that it will not totter."


In Massachusetts, the following law was passed in 1659 and was enforced on the people for 22 years before it was finally repealed.

"Whosoever shall be found observing Christmas, either by forbearing of labor, feasting, or any other way, every such person shall pay as a fine five shillings to the county."

The reason that the pilgrims were forbidding the celebration of Christmas (and the festivities that went with it) was because they were wise enough to realize that the Bible did not condone such customs of the early heathen that had nothing to do with the teachings of Christianity. In fact, they had many scriptures that made it quite clear that God was not pleased with such idolatrous celebrations. One such command was found in Jeremiah 10:2,3.

"Hear you the word which the Lord speaks unto you, 0 house of Israel. Thus says the Lord. Learn not the way of the heathen [non-Israelite nations], and be not dismayed at the signs of the heaven; for the nations are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain."

The pagan customs of the Gentile peoples were held in contempt by the people of God who lived in the biblical periods. This has not been the case, however, in modern times. It is usually reckoned by modern Christian authorities that the many customs of our early pagan forefathers can be innocent forms of frivolity and celebration and that God in no way condemns such practices. The vast majority of church leaders of the various denominations not only condone the Christmas and Easter celebrations that they know come directly from pagan religious ceremonies, but they actively encourage the use of them in the churches themselves and in the homes of the people. Among such customs is the setting up of Christmas trees. This custom is nothing more than a retention of pagan "tree worship" (which anthropologists and historians have for centuries informed the general public), but the setting up of Christmas trees continues unabated in multitudes of Christian churches around the world.

http://askelm.com/doctrine/d911101.htm

 

[evanman]

Jeremiah was describing the worship of the god Tammuz. Tammuz was often represented as an evergreen tree in ancient times.

 

[bibleberean]

Jeremiah was describing the worship of the god Tammuz. Tammuz was often represented as an evergreen tree in ancient times.

The "Christmas tree" tradition came from somewhere.

 

[plath_fan]

In all honesty, parents lie to their children all the time. My mother told me when I was little that her and my dad had been married for a year before they had me. Come to find out my mother was four months pregnant with me when her and my father got married. Why did she lie? Probably because she honestly wanted to set a better example for me. I was told santa was real. After all, if a child cannot have faith in simple, seeminly tangible things how will they ever grasp faith in Jesus Christ? I believed in Santa until I was nine. I don't think I turned out messed up because of it.

 

[will]

Im not sure what i will tell my childern when if i ever have any. I like the game idea that sounds like a good approach. I will want to focus on what the day actually means however. I have had a few things pointed out to me recently however santa and satan is just swaping the a and the n around coincidence?. Also whats this Xmas thing all about 'X'ing out christ isnt that highly wrong?. Its Christ mas turned to christmas turned to xmas anyone see a pattern?. The world is trying to remove christ from his own birthday. Which makes me a little sceptical about how many of its games we should be getting involved with.

 

[Diencephalon]

Santa was a nice fantasy to indulge in. As confused and upset that I was when I found that he was not real, I was happy to keep the stories alive with my siblings... to see the looks on their faces. It warms the heart. The confusion wears off.

The only problems I have with the tale of Santa Claus is the extreme material value it brings. Religious or not, if kids don't get everything they want from 'santa' they have a possibility of getting very greedy and angry that this big bearded fellow didn't bring them what they wanted most.

Kids are well enough though... such cute tales.

And that was a nice church lady reference with SANTA - SATAN. he he.

 

[bibleberean]

Children can cope with a lot of stress and deception.

That doesn't make lying to them Okay.

Do you think Jesus would play along with the idea of telling children about an overweight man dressed in red with supernatural powers who knows everything about them?

People can rationalize just about anything...

1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

 

[Eve777]

usually reckoned by modern Christian authorities that the many customs of our early pagan forefathers can be innocent forms of frivolity and celebration and that God in no way condemns such practices.

Modern Christian authorities are the sort of people I tend to turn a deaf ear too. Any Saint of God who reads and understands their Bible usually knows more than these so-called authroities.....

 

[Khristeeanos]

First and foremost, Christ came long after Jeremiah, so that is not describing a "Christmas tree"

Here is an email that I got a few years back.....

(1) No known species of reindeer can fly. However there are 300,000 species of living organisms yet to be classified, and while most of these are insects and germs, this does not completely rule out flying reindeer which only Santa has ever seen.

(2) There are 2 billion children (persons under 18) in the world. However, since Santa doesn't appear to handle most Muslim, Hindu, and Buddhist children, that reduces the workload to 15% of the total -- 378 million according to Population Reference Bureau. At an average rate of 3.5 children per household (according to the census bureau), that makes 91.8 million homes. We'll presume that there is at least one "good" child in each.

(3) Santa has 31 hours of Christmas to work with thanks to the different time zones and the rotation of the earth, assuming he travels east to west which seems logical). This works out to 822.6 visits per second. In other words, for each Christian household with "good" children Santa has 1/1000th of a second to: park, hop out of the sleigh, jump down the chimney, fill the stockings, distribute the remaining presents under the tree, eat whatever snacks have been left, get back up the chimney, get back into the sleigh, and move on to next house. Assuming that each of these 91.8 million stops are evenly distributed around the earth (which, of course is false but for the purpose of our calculations we will accept), we are now talking about .78 miles per household, a total trip of 75.5 million miles, not counting stops to do what most of us must do at least once every 31 hours. This means that Santa's sleigh is moving at 650 miles per second, or 3000 times the speed of sound. For purposes of comparison, the fastest man made vehicle ever invented, the Ulysses space probe, moves at a poky 27.4 miles per second. A conventional reindeer can only run 15 miles per hour, tops.

(4) The payload on the sleigh adds another interesting element. Assuming that each child gets nothing more than a medium-sized Lego set (2 pounds), the sleigh is carrying 321,300 tons, not counting Santa, who is already overweight and stuffed by the end of the night with milk and cookies from 91.8 million homes. On land a conventional team of reindeer can pull no more than 300 pounds. Even granting that "flying reindeer" can pull ten times that amount, Santa needs 214,200 reindeer to do the job. This increases the payload -- not even counting the weight of the sleigh itself--to 354,430 tons. Again, for purposes of comparison, this is four times the weight of the cruise ship Queen Elizabeth II.

(5) 353,000 tons traveling at 650 miles per second creates enormous air resistance, which will heat the reindeer up in the same fashion as a spacecraft reentering the earth's atmosphere. The lead pair of reindeer will each absorb 14.3 quintillion (14,300,000,000,000,000,000) joules of energy per second, instantaneously bursting into flames, creating deafening sonic booms in their wake, and exposing the reindeer following them to the same forces. The entire reindeer team will be vaporized within 4.26 thousandths of a second. Meanwhile, Santa will be subjected to acceleration forces over 17,500 times greater than gravity. A 250 pound Santa will be pinned to the back of his sleigh by 4,315,015 pounds of force.

The only sound conclusion from the above is, if Santa ever did deliver presents on Christmas Eve,
he's now certainly dead. I beg you! "Stop child abuse. Tell your children the truth." Jesus is the "Reason for the Season",not Santa. Most children start out having confidence in their parents to tell them the truth. It is often a tremendous shock to children to find out that their parents have been lying to them. Often it is the children at school who have been laughing at your child as your child holds his ground in his belief in Santa while defending his parents -- only later to find out that the "Laughing Kids" were "telling the truth," - not mom and dad. No wonder kids don't want to accept Jesus as they get older. Perhaps they're afraid that if they put their trust in Jesus, He'll turn out to be a hoax as well. - If they have been good for the reward of presents and not bad for the fear of coals in the stocking - and now understand that that was a lie also - why should they ever believe you when you tell them that only Jesus saves and about the reward of heaven for accepting Jesus and the punishment of hell for rejecting Jesus. Please tell your kids the truth.

Reading the "science" part of this really cracks me up!!! :

 

[Vic C.]

First and foremost, Christ came long after Jeremiah, so that is not describing a "Christmas tree"...

That may be true, but he is almost definitely talking about tree worship; something that seemed to be a problem with many Hebrews and pagans alike in Jeremiah's time.

The first question that should be asked in regard to this subject is the following: Is there a command anywhere in the Holy Scriptures that a human should cut a tree out of the forest, set it up in one's home at the time of the Winter Solstice, deck it with trinkets and various decorations, and then place a star on its topmost part to show an association of the tree with the signs of the heavens? There is, of course, no such command nor suggestion that such a thing should be done.

In spite of this, there are millions of Christian believers who do this very thing at the time of the Winter Solstice. It is well recognized by all educated people today that the practice is purely and simply a retention of pagan doctrines in the Christian home and church and the custom has nothing to do with the teachings of the Holy Scriptures....

...They should have had no worry. Jeremiah is really talking about pagan "tree worship" that the Israelites of his time had taken up. The palm tree (which is an evergreen like most Christmas trees today) was being decorated with gold and silver spiral ribbons like those that come forth from the working of a lathe and also with blue and purple cloth ribbons. Such trees were known as asherahs. They are mentioned several times in the Old Testament and often are translated by the English word "grove." But the word asherah has been shown to refer to a single tree that can be living, cut out of the forest, or depicted in various abstract forms. Indeed, the most ancient form of all pagan religion is simple "tree worship." Long before most nations of the world took up depicting their gods and goddesses in human or animal form, it is known that well-nigh the whole of the world's population (civilized or savage) were thoroughly engrossed in various forms of "tree worship." The Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics has a large article that shows the universal proclivity of all ancient peoples (including the Hebrews) to indulge in the worship of living trees and those they had cut out of the forest for religious reasons (vol.12, pp.448-457).

Such "tree worship" was well known in the time of Jeremiah and later. The oak was universally held in esteem. In mountainous areas cedars and firs were worshiped. In more desert regions the palm was the tree most worshiped. As the The Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics states: "Tree worship pure and simple, where the tree is in all respects treated as a god, is attested for Arabia in the case of the sacred date-palm in Nejran. It was adorned at an annual feast with fine clothes and women's ornaments" (vol.12, p.449). The encyclopaedia goes on to say that the biblical mention of the women of Judah draping the asherah with their garments near the Temple at Jerusalem is another example of tree worship (II Kings 23:7)....

...One wonders what Jeremiah, if he were alive today, would say about all the Christmas trees that now decorate our Christian homes and Christian churches? Would he sound a similar alarm like he did among the ancient Jewish population in Jerusalem? He probably would. And knowing how the apostles of Christ said to flee idolatry, the apostles would probably be equally against perpetuating these heathen customs. But as for the preachers and religious leaders today, they condone the whole thing and delight in the pagan festivities.

http://askelm.com/doctrine/d911101.htm

 

[evanman]

The point is not whether Jeremiah is describing a Christmas Tree or not.

Christmas Trees were not commanded by God. The Christmas Tree finds its origins in ancient pagan rites that date back all the way to ancient Babylon.

The Tree of Tammuz.

Tammuz was the son of Nimrod and Semiramis. Tammuz was often represented as an evergreen tree. This tradition was carried on over the centuries and appears as the Christmas Tree.

 

[Khristeeanos]

It is true that we aren't commanded to get a tree.

But it is also true that we aren't commanded to meet at a church building.

In the original and early church they met in people's homes.

There are no commands to use musical instruments in worship as well. How about abandoning them?

Or how about having Bible school? No command there!

We could go on and on, but you just won't find much of a traditional church service commanded in the Word, just like you won't find a command to decorate a tree.


But we do have an example set by God to celebrate Christ's birth because of the great detail in the Gospel accounts. People came from far away to celebrate the birth of Christ and today I as well celebrate the birth of Christ. Was it December 25th? No, most likely not.

But if God didn't want us to celebrate the birth of Christ, would He have spent so much time talking about it?

 

[Blue-Lightning]

Slanglep says:

Disney characters or made up characters are fine but not when they interfere or take the focus of of the birth of our Lord and Saviour.

It just amazes me how many "Christians" would rather feed their kids this fairy tale.

You need to grow up. Santa Claus doesn't take the focus off of Christ anymore than parents giving children gifts, or Christmas cards, or the Christmas tree, or any other culture-related acts. And if you ever suggest, however remotely, that I am not a Christian, we will not talk again until I see a major change in you - I take that very seriously. You have greatly offended me.

BB says:

All I said was that deliberately telling kids Santa is a real person with supernatural powers is a lie.

Okay, then you would be okay with letting your kids sit in Santa's lap and tell them what they want for Christmas as long as you don't tell them he's really Santa Claus and he has no magical powers. Right? Because that would be extremely similar to taking your child to see "Mickey Mouse" and letting them get an autograph but never telling them that he truly was Mickey Mouse.

And like I stated, telling your kids that Santa is real is no more a lie than telling them they can be whatever they want to be when they grow up. Because guess what? That's a much bigger lie.

You see, what you guys don't realize is that children don't know the difference between fantasy and reality until they reach a certain age. They see elmo on tv - that's elmo and he is real. And if you want to call Santa a lie and all of that, well you're going to have to do the same with all the other things your children believe in... including elmo, big bird, Mickey Mouse, Blue the dog, Barney, etc. Otherwise you're double talking because you haven't thought something through all the way.

It wasn't directed at you personally.

I understand. But when you attack my family traditions for celebrating the birth of Christ, you attack what I care about.

BL

 

[bibleberean]

This is not a personal attack against anyone. Just the plain facts.

Santa Clause doesn't exist. Jesus does.

I see a problem.

Telling children that Santa is a real person is lying to them.

Lying to children by telling them Santa exists is a tradition.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Lying to children is a serious matter.

Philosophy, excuses, mean nothing to me.

It is obvious to me at least that this vain tradition of deceit cannot be defended from scripture.

 

[Blue-Lightning]

Santa Clause doesn't exist. Jesus does.

Well, the mythological Santa Claus exists as a fictional character while the historical St. Nicholas exists as a person. Jesus Christ exists as our Savior.

Telling children that Santa is a real person is lying to them.

Not really - its a Santa is a real person, he just isn't the real person delivering presents.

Lying to children by telling them Santa exists is a tradition.

Yes, much like how some cultures leave presents from the Kings on Christmas, or how children receive a coin from the tooth fairy. These are all fun little games that different cultures have developed for children during the holidays.

And let's not "cherrypick" the Bible like it appears is happening with the Col passage.

Philosophy, excuses, mean nothing to me.

Until I attack something that you feel is a good thing, and then you will highly value your "excuse"... you might even go as far as calling it reasoning.

It is obvious to me at least that this vain tradition of deceit cannot be defended from scripture.

Well, it would have to be tradition of vain deceit according to scripture, but really I just find this humorous. I mean, c'mon.... we're using this to denounce Santa Claus?

So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. Col 2:6-8

Really, is a belief in Santa Claus taking anyone captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy? I suppose the tooth fairy is also.

And then you've still not answered me about whether or not you would take your children to sit in Santa's lap as long as you didn't tell them he was real... because that was the logic you used for Disneyland. And I'm still pretty confused over how you're going to get your three-year old to understand that Barney is not real since he doesn't have the mental capacity yet to grasp a difference between fantasy and reality.

And now let's touch on the Christmas tree for a minute:

Some here are attacking the use of a Christmas tree... ridiculous once again. Is anybody worshipping a Christmas tree? No - not anybody I know. The Christmas tree is a decoration that was born in Europe some years ago and is completely unrelated to tree worship that is mentioned in Habbukuk. The thinking that we can't use a tree for decoration because some people thousands of years ago used trees for worship is akin to saying we can't plant trees because they were idols thousands of years ago.

In fact, the current Christmas tree is simply an extension of the use of "greens" during the Christmas season. It represents eternal life in Jesus Christ (evergreen). The Christmas lights, which used to be candles, represented the stars on the night of Jesus' birth, and a large star is placed on top of the tree to represent the star of Bethlehem.

BL

 

[bibleberean]

Hello again BlueL,

The Tooth Fairy is a lie too.

I believe we need to tell children the truth.

You are free to lie to yours if you want to.

 

[Blue-Lightning]

What a very juvenile response.

I believe we need to tell children the truth.

Make sure to not forget that when your child asks you if "we're going to see Mickey," when you head to Disneyland next time. I wouldn't want you to forget and lie by saying, "yes." Afterall, we all know Mickey isn't real.

Come back and talk with me when you've got your logic completely thought out.

BL

 

[Judy]

Let's play nice.. And stop with the condescending insults. :-?