Satan ...'saved' ...by Your Gospel Beliefs ?

[PDoug]

Our free will is not taken away, and we do not become robots by faith so we "unconsciously" do good works. That is nowhere in the bible.

Read James:

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Not to boast, but as a proof that you are legitimate if your faith is in question or if some one else teaches "faith alone" in some corrupted, abstract form of mere "belief".

Let me start out by noting the following scripture:

Galatians 5

4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

The scripture above clearly states that if you pursue righteousness through works while having faith, you will forfeit your salvation. This scripture clearly destroys the salvation by works doctrine. Further, when you look at the scripture below, you see that your faith is supposed to produce good works in you - not that you are supposed to pursue good works directly:

(NASB)

James 2

17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

Therefore what James in James 2:18 was saying is that claiming to have faith that bears no evidence of its authenticity via (naturally arising) works is meaningless, because the only legitimate faith there is, is the one attests of its legitimacy through the (natural) production of works.

We are not robots. We can still sin (even if we still "believe"). We are not mindless instruments of unconscious works. Know why Abraham offered Isaac and was circumcised? Know why we are baptized? Know why we preach and help the poor and the orphan/fatherless and the widow?

Because we lose ourselves in some sea of spiritual unconsciousness? No. Because we, loving Yahweh, do as he says as obedient servants. You are promoting "morale" in the wrong sense, it seems.

If we never heard of baptism, nothing, in any form of faith or the Spirit of Yahweh, could "make" us know to go get baptized. We have to be told. And after we are told, we have to make a conscious, loving effort to do it. Baptism is a "work".

What if Yahweh told you to go to some of the lost in some remote country somewhere and preach? Do you have to make the decision to obey? Or do you, at the moment he tells you, lose your personhood and unconsciously go by a ticket for whatever method of transportation, and unconsciously pack a bag and get maybe a group of trusted friends to go with you, and do you unconsciously go get on the plane/boat/whatever and unconsciously get off and do your job and unconciously return to your home and then finally wake up from the "spiritual laspse" period and be like, "hey must have been a dream!"???????

:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

Sorry. Just a little rant there...

Please note the following scriptures:

Romans 7

18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
.
.
.
22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law;
23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.
24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?
25 Thanks be to Godâ€â€through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Romans 8

9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

Philippians 2

13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

It can be seen from the above scriptures, that someone who has faith: has no direct control over his behavior (Romans 7:18, 22-23, Romans 8:9); is both a slave to God's law and to his sinful nature at the same time (Romans 7:25); and is actually directed by God to do His will. Now if someone is a slave to God's law, it means that he is forced to act according to God's law - which is the same being controlled by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:9). Therefore what I was saying was not ludicrous - as it is supported by the scriptures.

 

[gingercat]

Why are you people who are against "working for salvation", persecuting faithful ones? You are fighting against God when you persecute faithful ones. Jesus gave us so much work to do. It seems that you are jealous of people who can follow Jesus without complaining. We don't see any faithful and godly ones who are lazy in the Bible. Not even one. Being good witnesses is our main job for His glory. Without doing good works we can never be good witnesses. When we have Jesus in us He urges us to do good deeds. It is so simple even young people can understand. Do you know why we have lots of hypocricy in free countries? Because we don't accept the work Jesus assigned us to do. We are experts in making excuses. Most of us enjoy debating the Bible just like Pharisees and Scribes in the NT. And Jesus called them hypocrites.

Per Galatians 5:4 you are not supposed to try and achieve righteousness through works - while having faith. If you try to do so, you will lose your salvation. What you are supposed to do, is ensure that your faith is authentic. The way that you know your faith is authentic, is by the natural appearance of righteousness seen in your behavior, as a result of your having faith (Romans 9:30).

What is your point? Did I say something unbiblical? I haven't seen anyone who works hard for the Lord seem unauthentic. We work hard because of what Jesus is telling. Is it so hard to understand? Do you know that Jesus is giving us a lot of work to do? The NT is filled with the work.

EDIT: I see what was wrong. My apologies. I meant not "working for salvation" but "the saved working".

What Jay T keeps talking about is salvation by works. Good works that are produced from faith happen naturally - without your making a conscious effort to do them for the sake of salvation (Romans 9:30). Someone who has great faith will be naturally driven within himself to do great works. He will also be outfitted by God to do what he sets out to do. The man who does works that are caused by his faith, will labor even when there seems no obvious point to doing what he is doing. He will labor when he is assailed by evil. He will labor to expose the ways of God, even though God has exposed him to great distress. To an extent the man who has real faith will be assured he belongs to God, because he will find himself doing all these things, when under normal circumstances he just plain wouldn't do them. Also, the man who has real faith will be assured he belongs to God, by the good deeds he finds himself constantly doing (most of the time without realizing it), amid the various situations he finds himself in.

I don't believe Jay T is talking about salvation wihtout faith. We have so many churches that hardly ever give respect what our Lord Jesus is commnading us to do. He is trying make out how inconsistant our faith is. Far too many people disregard our responsibilities as His followers. We have to stop this disgraceful practice. At least I will keep on speaking up against this kind of practice.

 

[wavy]

Let me start out by noting the following scripture:

Galatians 5

4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

The scripture above clearly states that if you pursue righteousness through works while having faith, you will forfeit your salvation. This scripture clearly destroys the salvation by works doctrine.

Alrighty then. No one is arguing salvation by works, however, so the quoting of this irrelevant...

Further, when you look at the scripture below, you see that your faith is supposed to produce good works in you - not that you are supposed to pursue good works directly:

We'll see...

(NASB)

James 2

17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

Therefore what James in James 2:18 was saying is that claiming to have faith that bears no evidence of its authenticity via (naturally arising) works is meaningless, because the only legitimate faith there is, is the one attests of its legitimacy through the (natural) production of works.

No, you just inserted your opinion into the scripture again. Of course works are a natural (commone sense) expression of our faith because if you believe something, you'll do it! (consciously).

You superimpose "unconsciously" into the context with no backing.

Please note the following scriptures:

Romans 7

18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

"Cannot" is not in the text. Yet again another case where translation is appealed to to support one's opinion. But it doesn't matter. One trapped in sin needs deliverance by the Spirit of Yahweh through Messiah (not to be overtaken by "control").

Anyway, there is a context to all this. He's speaking of flesh vs. walking in the Spirit (Torah is Spiritual; Romans 7:14).

What the flesh did, however, with it's desires was seek to break Torah. So what we should have done, we have not done. A lifestyle of this traps us in sin and makes it harder to repent and turn to the good (because we love our sin and fleshly ways so much).

So how are we delivered (Romans 7:24)? The answer is Romans 7:25. Rejuventation. A hope for something. A will to deny the flesh because of the rejuvenation (not control) of the Spirit.

22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law;
23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.

Irrelevant to your point...

24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?
25 Thanks be to Godâ€â€through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Romans 8

9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

Again, an appeal to translation. Find the word for "control" in the Greek. Also, Romans 7:25, which you highlighted as support, refutes what you're trying to say:

So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God;

Not in the flesh to find loopholes to fulfill desires. But you desire not to sin anymore, but desire (consciously a.k.a. with your mind) to serve Yahweh (not become a robot).

Philippians 2

13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

Please read the previous verse, and this ties into a new heart and Spirit, not a method of unconcious control to where if we don't "feel" it in our spiritual lapse period to do it, then it shouldn't be done (which is what you are truly promoting because Jay T's point is about keeping the commandments).

It can be seen from the above scriptures, that someone who has faith: has no direct control over his behavior

Not one scripture says that and this is an abominable lie. You also ignored the rest of what I said with my little scenario there...

and is actually directed by God to do His will.

Directed, not made/forced.

Now if someone is a slave to God's law, it means that he is forced to act according to God's law - which is the same being controlled by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:9).

This means it is impossible to sin. This is absolutely ridiculous because this means the Spirit fails in you. He controls you to sin. No one is "forced". This is the most absurd thing I have ever heard, truly.

Therefore what I was saying was not ludicrous - as it is supported by the scriptures.

:shocked!: :

 

[gingercat]

But we are not obedient in so many ways in the things we already know. Why don't we focus on how we can glorify God with what we already know? It's not wise to confuse people with mysticle words. We are already confused enough!

And in your words above you present the perfect example of contradiction out of confusion.


How can you expect to glorify God when in your own words you are "confused"?


Gingercat, simplicity is a wonderful thing, but God did not create man to be simple, God created man to have dominion over every living thing on the earth. Does that sound like a simple endeavor?


Does living through death sound simple?

God is not simple Gingercat, and He does not expect us to be simple.

In fact, God tells us this through Paul's words,.... grow up and eat meat means stop being simple-minded.


Fact is Gingercat, I believe that most of what I say is simple.

What's not simple is the convulted reasoning behind one's opinion deeming what I say as being complicated.

Got that?


In love,
cj

Jesus tells us to love one another. Do you think we are showing love towards each other with our deeds? How about your church? Are they showing Jesus' love with their deeds? Do you know if they are even being fruitful? They are simple and basic things we have to know to love one another. Why don't you focus on simple things like these? Most churches are drinking milk forever with their practices. It seems that you are keeping your eyes away from real basic problems. It seems that all you are doing is just debating words and more words.

 

[PDoug]

Please note the following scripture:

Romans 9

30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;
31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it.
33 As it is written:
"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

If the Gentiles in the above scripture do not consciously pursue righteousness, but achieve it anyhow, what other way than naturally / unconsciously can they achieve it?

This has nothing to do with "consciously". This has to do with the past. Why do they have right standing even though in past times they were walking outside of the boundries of righteous Torah?

Because they have faith and so righteousness is imputed to them just like it was to Abraham before he (consciously) did works (obeyed Yahweh).

Consider the following:

Galatians 5

4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

If the scripture above says we are not to pursue works of righteousness directly / consciously, how else can we pursue righteousness (Romans 2:13) but naturally / unconsciously?

 

[wavy]

Consider the following:

Galatians 5

4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

If the scripture above says we are not to pursue works of righteousness consciously, how else can we pursue righteousness (Romans 2:13) but naturally or unconsciously?

How many times will you superimpose you idea of consciously/unconsciously into the scripture?

This would only make sense if Paul was arguing whether or not we are controlled by the Spirit.

Also, this has to deal with justification through law (in the perverted form as presented by the "works of law" group), not obedience to true faith.

I'm done. I can't argue with this "mindlessness" anymore. Perhaps you are not in control of your eyes and fingers as you read and type these things.

Not to end in on an unfriendly not for the future. But it's just I can't debate this. This is a waste of time.

 

[PDoug]

Consider the following:

Galatians 5

4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

If the scripture above says we are not to pursue works of righteousness consciously, how else can we pursue righteousness (Romans 2:13) but naturally or unconsciously?

How many times will you superimpose you idea of consciously/unconsciously into the scripture?

This would only make sense if Paul was arguing whether or not we are controlled by the Spirit.

Also, this has to deal with justification through law (in the perverted form as presented by the "works of law" group), not obedience to true faith.

I'm done. I can't argue with this "mindlessness" anymore. Perhaps you are not in control of your eyes and fingers as you read and type these things.

Not to end in on an unfriendly not for the future. But it's just I can't debate this. This is a waste of time.

How can you say that Galatians 5:4 has to do with those who are faithless, when Paul warns those to whom he is speaking, that if they pursue works of righteousness they will fall away from grace - which (grace i.e.) can only gained by having faith (Ephesians 2:8-9)? Therefore it is the faithful Paul warns that if they pursue works (consciously) in order to achieve righteousness, they will lose their salvation. It must follow therefore that the only way for someone to legitimately do good works, is to do so unconsciously, or consciously in a natural fashion, while having faith. I see no way around it.

Note also I am talking from experience that is borne out by scriptures.

 

[PDoug]

Why are you people who are against "working for salvation", persecuting faithful ones? You are fighting against God when you persecute faithful ones. Jesus gave us so much work to do. It seems that you are jealous of people who can follow Jesus without complaining. We don't see any faithful and godly ones who are lazy in the Bible. Not even one. Being good witnesses is our main job for His glory. Without doing good works we can never be good witnesses. When we have Jesus in us He urges us to do good deeds. It is so simple even young people can understand. Do you know why we have lots of hypocricy in free countries? Because we don't accept the work Jesus assigned us to do. We are experts in making excuses. Most of us enjoy debating the Bible just like Pharisees and Scribes in the NT. And Jesus called them hypocrites.

Per Galatians 5:4 you are not supposed to try and achieve righteousness through works - while having faith. If you try to do so, you will lose your salvation. What you are supposed to do, is ensure that your faith is authentic. The way that you know your faith is authentic, is by the natural appearance of righteousness seen in your behavior, as a result of your having faith (Romans 9:30).

What is your point? Did I say something unbiblical? I haven't seen anyone who works hard for the Lord seem unauthentic. We work hard because of what Jesus is telling. Is it so hard to understand? Do you know that Jesus is giving us a lot of work to do? The NT is filled with the work.

EDIT: I see what was wrong. My apologies. I meant not "working for salvation" but "the saved working".

What Jay T keeps talking about is salvation by works. Good works that are produced from faith happen naturally - without your making a conscious effort to do them for the sake of salvation (Romans 9:30). Someone who has great faith will be naturally driven within himself to do great works. He will also be outfitted by God to do what he sets out to do. The man who does works that are caused by his faith, will labor even when there seems no obvious point to doing what he is doing. He will labor when he is assailed by evil. He will labor to expose the ways of God, even though God has exposed him to great distress. To an extent the man who has real faith will be assured he belongs to God, because he will find himself doing all these things, when under normal circumstances he just plain wouldn't do them. Also, the man who has real faith will be assured he belongs to God, by the good deeds he finds himself constantly doing (most of the time without realizing it), amid the various situations he finds himself in.

I don't believe Jay T is talking about salvation wihtout faith.

I didn't say that Jay T was talking about salvation without works. I said that Jay T tends to advocate justification by works. The problem is that Jay T tends to advocate the pursuit of works (along with faith) in order to achieve righeousness - in direct violation of Galatians 5:4.

We have so many churches that hardly ever give respect what our Lord Jesus is commnading us to do. He is trying make out how inconsistant our faith is. Far too many people disregard our responsibilities as His followers. We have to stop this disgraceful practice. At least I will keep on speaking up against this kind of practice.

Please re-read what I wrote about the direct pursuit of works in order to attain righteousness, vs. righteous works that naturally arise in someone as a result of his (legitimate) faith.

 

[gingercat]

[quote="gingercat":3d5ed]Why are you people who are against "working for salvation", persecuting faithful ones? You are fighting against God when you persecute faithful ones. Jesus gave us so much work to do. It seems that you are jealous of people who can follow Jesus without complaining. We don't see any faithful and godly ones who are lazy in the Bible. Not even one. Being good witnesses is our main job for His glory. Without doing good works we can never be good witnesses. When we have Jesus in us He urges us to do good deeds. It is so simple even young people can understand. Do you know why we have lots of hypocricy in free countries? Because we don't accept the work Jesus assigned us to do. We are experts in making excuses. Most of us enjoy debating the Bible just like Pharisees and Scribes in the NT. And Jesus called them hypocrites.

Per Galatians 5:4 you are not supposed to try and achieve righteousness through works - while having faith. If you try to do so, you will lose your salvation. What you are supposed to do, is ensure that your faith is authentic. The way that you know your faith is authentic, is by the natural appearance of righteousness seen in your behavior, as a result of your having faith (Romans 9:30).

What is your point? Did I say something unbiblical? I haven't seen anyone who works hard for the Lord seem unauthentic. We work hard because of what Jesus is telling. Is it so hard to understand? Do you know that Jesus is giving us a lot of work to do? The NT is filled with the work.

EDIT: I see what was wrong. My apologies. I meant not "working for salvation" but "the saved working".

What Jay T keeps talking about is salvation by works. Good works that are produced from faith happen naturally - without your making a conscious effort to do them for the sake of salvation (Romans 9:30). Someone who has great faith will be naturally driven within himself to do great works. He will also be outfitted by God to do what he sets out to do. The man who does works that are caused by his faith, will labor even when there seems no obvious point to doing what he is doing. He will labor when he is assailed by evil. He will labor to expose the ways of God, even though God has exposed him to great distress. To an extent the man who has real faith will be assured he belongs to God, because he will find himself doing all these things, when under normal circumstances he just plain wouldn't do them. Also, the man who has real faith will be assured he belongs to God, by the good deeds he finds himself constantly doing (most of the time without realizing it), amid the various situations he finds himself in.

I don't believe Jay T is talking about salvation wihtout faith.

I didn't say that Jay T was talking about salvation without works. I said that Jay T tends to advocate justification by works. The problem is that Jay T tends to advocate the pursuit of works (along with faith) in order to achieve righeousness - in direct violation of Galatians 5:4.

We have so many churches that hardly ever give respect what our Lord Jesus is commnading us to do. He is trying make out how inconsistant our faith is. Far too many people disregard our responsibilities as His followers. We have to stop this disgraceful practice. At least I will keep on speaking up against this kind of practice.

Please re-read what I wrote about the direct pursuit of works in order to attain righteousness, vs. righteous works that naturally arise in someone as a result of his (legitimate) faith.[/quote:3d5ed]

P Doug, Have you met anyone who is trying to earn salvation by works? I haven't met any. Not even one. I don't understand why you people are making such big deal out of this. We dont have many faithful workers of His. You are making it seem like there are so many hard working Christians for the Lord.

 

[PDoug]

P Doug, Have you met anyone who is trying to earn salvation by works? I haven't met any. Not even one. I don't understand why you people are making such big deal out of this. We dont have many faithful workers of His. You are making it seem like there are so many hard working Christians for the Lord.

I keep encountering threads started by Jay T (along with others) in which they advocate justification by works - as I showed in this post.

I don't understand why you people are making such big deal out of this. We dont have many faithful workers of His. You are making it seem like there are so many hard working Christians for the Lord.

I make such a big deal out of this for the same reason Paul made a big deal out of this to the Romans and Galations: because pursuing good works directly is a lethal distraction from the truth. Rather than pursuing legitimate faith, people wind up pursuing good works to their doom! As I've said repeatedly, you should be focused on ensuring that you have a type of faith that causes good works to appear in you in a natural fashion - not trying to accomplish good works directly which Galatians 5:4 warns you not to do, and which Romans 7:18, 22-23 says is fruitless to do.

 

[Klee shay]

For those who do good works through faith; take heart that your joy will be shared in heaven.

For those who do works to prove faith; beware the snare of deception. Not a man can earn his place in heaven; but it is given as a gift by Christ who knows the faithful.

If the purpose of this debate is to prove who has better faith, then we are all in danger of the enemy's snare. Be mindful not only of your understanding of such matters, but also how your heart pursues it. For it is Jesus who placed the stumbling stone before men and those who are humble will not mind the trip. Those who are proud and haughty however, will try to turn others away from the stumbling stone of life.

If men must fall, let it be by Christ's design and not our own doing. For our own confusion can become a stumbling stone of death and not life. Speak only the truth as revealed by Jesus and let pride be given back to the devil.

 

[gingercat]

For those who do good works through faith; take heart that your joy will be shared in heaven.

For those who do works to prove faith; beware the snare of deception. Not a man can earn his place in heaven; but it is given as a gift by Christ who knows the faithful.

If the purpose of this debate is to prove who has better faith, then we are all in danger of the enemy's snare. Be mindful not only of your understanding of such matters, but also how your heart pursues it. For it is Jesus who placed the stumbling stone before men and those who are humble will not mind the trip. Those who are proud and haughty however, will try to turn others away from the stumbling stone of life.

If men must fall, let it be by Christ's design and not our own doing. For our own confusion can become a stumbling stone of death and not life. Speak only the truth as revealed by Jesus and let pride be given back to the devil.

If we persecute hard working Christians without any proof of them being unbiblical we will be in trouble with the Lord. It seems that that's what you are doing. We hardly have enough hard working faithful Christians and you are accusing them of trying to earn salvation by works. How insane.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Um ...what 'good works' are we talking about specifically? And what 'good works' ...specifically ...need we not be doing? In fact, should we perhaps not be doing any 'good works' at all to eliminate the possibility of being accused of 'having a better faith'? I'm somewhat confused ...not that it takes too much to confuse me these days.

By the way, since I haven't checked out the entire thread, does it have anything at all to do with the 4th-commandment?