F
fResH
Guest
This, "fallen angel" was obviously here before Adam & Eve, because it was he who tricked them into sinning. SO does this suggest that there was life before Adam & Eve? At a time in which Satan was once human?
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ChristineES
Guest
It was a serpent that lied to Eve. It does not actually say that it is Satan.
F
fResH
Guest
Well I gotta question how it was able to talk, and the only reasonable theory I see is that either all animals could talk at one point, or that it was demon possesed.
C
ChristineES
Guest
I just don't know. Maybe the serpent was a symbolism of something else.(Satan, as most say) Eve did not seem surprised that the serpent could talk, so maybe animals could talk then.
Opinions, anyone?
Opinions, anyone?
S
Sothenes
Guest
fResH said:
Satan is a cherub. There is no evidence that I know of that he was human.
Genesis 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/ ... -1921.html
According to the Blue Letter Bible, the word "to keep it" is shamar and it means to protect, guard, etc. it. Protect it from what?
According to theologians there is a gap theory and that is where they get these extra biblical theories. As to whether or not theese theories are true or not, I'm not sure.
F
fResH
Guest
Well, look at it this way.
Eve is human, put in the image of god.
The serpent obviously had a decietful personality to betray Eve, either that, or the serpent itself ate an apple of wisdom...
Eve is human, put in the image of god.
The serpent obviously had a decietful personality to betray Eve, either that, or the serpent itself ate an apple of wisdom...
A
ArtGuy
Guest
ChristineES said:
If you're a literalist, then the serpent has to be a little serpent, and can't really represent anything else. If you're not, there's no reason to believe there was even an Adam and an Eve to begin with.
I
Imagican
Guest
Satan was an angel. The Word indicates that the 'most beautiful angel in heaven'. Given so much that he decided that to submit to God was to be placed in a 'lower' position and therefore he revolted. His pride had him 'cast out' of heaven and for this cause he has worked his best to destroy what God created and have it worship him instead of the Father.
YES, satan existed 'before' Adam and Eve. Ane the Bible does NOT say that Eve was created in the 'image of God'. It says that Adam was created in the 'image of' and that Eve was created 'from' Adam, 'for' Adam. This is the cause of Satan 'tempting' Eve instead of Adam. For Eve was desirous of the postion of Adam and is to this day. So, when Satan was able to offer that not only would Eve be 'equal' to Adam, but 'equal' to God Himself, she couldn't resist the temptation. For it was NOT Adam that was deceived but EVE. Adam simply ate what his wife gave him and there is NO indication that ANYTHING that could have been offered would have enticed him other than the simply desire to please his wife.
Both were punished but look at WHO received the greater condemnation. Eve, for it was her that surcomed and her that God placed in submission to Adam. For God IS the head of Christ, as Christ is the head of Man, and man is the head of woman. These are truths that are openly offered in the Word.
YES, satan existed 'before' Adam and Eve. Ane the Bible does NOT say that Eve was created in the 'image of God'. It says that Adam was created in the 'image of' and that Eve was created 'from' Adam, 'for' Adam. This is the cause of Satan 'tempting' Eve instead of Adam. For Eve was desirous of the postion of Adam and is to this day. So, when Satan was able to offer that not only would Eve be 'equal' to Adam, but 'equal' to God Himself, she couldn't resist the temptation. For it was NOT Adam that was deceived but EVE. Adam simply ate what his wife gave him and there is NO indication that ANYTHING that could have been offered would have enticed him other than the simply desire to please his wife.
Both were punished but look at WHO received the greater condemnation. Eve, for it was her that surcomed and her that God placed in submission to Adam. For God IS the head of Christ, as Christ is the head of Man, and man is the head of woman. These are truths that are openly offered in the Word.
J
John the Baptist
Guest
--No, the serpent was not originaly a physical snake!--
Wow! It is hard for me to believe where these ones here are at?? It is not saying much for the fold that you were reared in, (or the preacher??
)
But.. read Revelation 12:3-9. In the K.J. you will see some of the names for the devil used all through God's Word.
And do you remember Matthew 4:4?? Re/read the verse by Christ. And there is another name for satan seen in Isaiah 14:12-14 where he was named Lucifer before he fell 'from heaven', it even tells of his problem that caused his fall, if one can grasp it? (again read it in the K.J.) 'I,I,I,I,I, ... will be like the most High'. And how do you think that he is doing??? See Matthew 4:9.
And Ezekiel 28:12-19 gives the prince of Tyrus by name, with satan seen in him, and where satan went wrong in heaven. (unless one thinks that the prince was in heaven?) Anyway, it is like Christ telling Peter, 'Get behind me satan' one time.
Wow! It is hard for me to believe where these ones here are at?? It is not saying much for the fold that you were reared in, (or the preacher??
)But.. read Revelation 12:3-9. In the K.J. you will see some of the names for the devil used all through God's Word.
And do you remember Matthew 4:4?? Re/read the verse by Christ. And there is another name for satan seen in Isaiah 14:12-14 where he was named Lucifer before he fell 'from heaven', it even tells of his problem that caused his fall, if one can grasp it? (again read it in the K.J.) 'I,I,I,I,I, ... will be like the most High'. And how do you think that he is doing??? See Matthew 4:9.
And Ezekiel 28:12-19 gives the prince of Tyrus by name, with satan seen in him, and where satan went wrong in heaven. (unless one thinks that the prince was in heaven?) Anyway, it is like Christ telling Peter, 'Get behind me satan' one time.
F
fResH
Guest
Well i'm curious now as to how God saw Satan as the most beautiful angel in heaven.
J
John the Baptist
Guest
fResH said:
*****
Hi, here is part of a post from another site, I say:
Hi, I will stick with what 'Inspiration' says.
The K.J. on Revelation 20:1-3. (in part)
"And he laid hold on the dragon, [that old serpent, which is the devil, and satan], .."
And again:
Revelation 12:1-10 if you care to read it?
Now about your curiosity? God gives all the answers in the complete book. Matthew 4:4 & 2 Timothy 3:16. Lucifer is the name of the Covering cherub (satan) before he fell. Sin started in heaven with him. Again Ezekiel 28, if it was not posted? The verses say that Lucifer was created perfect. Yet, it is obvious that he was not perfectly MATURE! Nahum 1:9 The prince of Tyrus is a type compared to satan. The K.J. is the best read for this as I see it.
See if this helps? ---John
J
John the Baptist
Guest
Removed the double post!
J
John the Baptist
Guest
John the Baptist said:
******
Hay, don't run off! If 'i' can understand some of this anyone can! :fadein:
What Bible do you use?
Ã
ÃÂoppleganger
Guest
Yes Satan Fell BEFORE Adam & Eve which is Why He caused the division between God and man and the origin of earthly sin! To gap theorists Gen 1:1-2 is the fall and RECREATION of earth (like viewing in from the earth). He then commands Adam & Eve to REPLENISH the earth after there fall. And The 2 Cherubim On The Ark Of The Covenent are Micheal And Lucifier!WOW Yep! Satan hasn't suffering in the flesh 'DE Facto' yet thats coming soon. But where ever Christ is, Satan is soon 2 follow just like in Jesus's temptation. And Vica Versa!
BibleDictionary_Fausset
-----------------------
The serpent being known as subtle, Eve was not surprised at his speaking.
The “cunning craftiness, lying in wait to deceive,†marks the particular
serpent rather than snakes in general.
the serpent was crafty above every behemoth in the field Genesis 3:1.
They have sharpened their tongues to give a deadly wound like a serpent Psalm 64:3.
Abstract Of Systematic Theology Boyce
-------------------------------------
As to the reality of an external agent in the temptation, there has been no little
dispute. Some have held that there was no actor, but that the temptation was the
result merely of the emotions and desires of the woman. But the Scriptures say
distinctly that there was a serpent, present and active. Temptation, through a
serpent might have occurred in several ways.
1. A serpent might innocently and alone have been the occasion of the suggestion
of the thoughts to Eve.
2. Some evil being might have accompanied the innocent acts of the serpent to
suggest to her mind the thoughts by which he would tempt her to sin.
3. This evil spirit, in the form of a serpent, or taking possession of an actual
serpent, might have used and uttered the language or suggested the thoughts
attributed to him in the narrative.
4. A fourth explanation advocated by Turner's Commentary on Genesis supposes that
the devil was the only agent, and that all reference to the serpent is allegorical.
The Scriptures seem to accord more nearly with the third of these theories. There
appears to be no valid objection to the acceptance of it.
(1) It is not inconsistent with the power ascribed to Satan that he should
thus enter the form of a creature already in existance, or even assume the
appearance of a creature. "For even Satan fashioned himself into an angel of light."
2 Cor. 11:14. The temptation of Jesus shows that Satan can assume a bodily form.
Mere mental suggestion cannot account for all that then occurred. It is necessary
to believe that he appeared in a physical form to our Lord and addressed him in words
uttered with the voice. This is involved in the offer recorded in Luke 4:7. "If
thou therefore wilt worship before me it shall all be thine."
(2) The force of the objection from the curse against the serpent, as against an
innocent animal,vanishes with the light thrown by modern science upon creation.
This shows that the serpent has always had its present form. The curse, therefore,
so far as uttered against the animal is merely equivalent to an assertion of the
continuance of what had always been, and only places before man a constant and dreaded
memorial of the first sin. This is consistent with God's method ofcursing and blessing
as seen in the bow of Noah, Gen. 9:8-17, and Jacob's language as to Simeon and Levi in
Gen. 49:5-7.
(3) This third theory is favoured by the following facts:
1. The title serpent and dragon is given elsewhere in Scripture to Satan. Rev. 12:3-9,
12-17 & 13:2-4. The old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan. Matt. 3:7,
where John calls the Pharisees "an offspring of vipers," and compare it with John 8:44,
our Lord's language: "Ye are of your father the devil." The narrative in Genesis demands
more than mental suggestion through a mere animal. A characteristic special subtlety is
ascribed to the serpent. If the temptation of Eve arose from mere mental suggestion to
her by the purposeless acts of a purely irrational animal, the mention of this subtlety
is unaccountable. The thoughts suggested could not have arisen in the mind alone. These
are that death would not ensue and that the knowledge of good and evil would elevate them
to godlike status. The subsequent references in the Scriptures to this transaction show
that this was the beginning of the great struggle of Satan for the ruin of man, which was
to end in his destruction by the man Christ Jesus, through the seed of the woman.
4. In the New Testament it is directly asserted that in various forms Satan seduced our
first parents into sin. In Rev. 12:9, it is said, 'The great dragon was that old serpent,
called the Devil, and Satan.' In 2 Cor. 11:3, Paul says, 'I fear lest ... as the serpent
beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so also your minds should be corrupted from the
simplicity that is in Christ.' By that the serpent is understood to be Satan from
2 Cor. 11: 14, and what is said in Rom. 16:20, 'The God of peace shall bruise Satan under
your feet,' is an obvious allusion to Gen. 3:15. In John 8:44, our Lord calls the Devil a
'murderer from the beginning, and the father of lies, because through him sin and death
were introduced into the world,'- Hodge Systematic Theology.
BibleDictionary_Fausset
-----------------------
The serpent being known as subtle, Eve was not surprised at his speaking.
The “cunning craftiness, lying in wait to deceive,†marks the particular
serpent rather than snakes in general.
the serpent was crafty above every behemoth in the field Genesis 3:1.
They have sharpened their tongues to give a deadly wound like a serpent Psalm 64:3.
Abstract Of Systematic Theology Boyce
-------------------------------------
As to the reality of an external agent in the temptation, there has been no little
dispute. Some have held that there was no actor, but that the temptation was the
result merely of the emotions and desires of the woman. But the Scriptures say
distinctly that there was a serpent, present and active. Temptation, through a
serpent might have occurred in several ways.
1. A serpent might innocently and alone have been the occasion of the suggestion
of the thoughts to Eve.
2. Some evil being might have accompanied the innocent acts of the serpent to
suggest to her mind the thoughts by which he would tempt her to sin.
3. This evil spirit, in the form of a serpent, or taking possession of an actual
serpent, might have used and uttered the language or suggested the thoughts
attributed to him in the narrative.
4. A fourth explanation advocated by Turner's Commentary on Genesis supposes that
the devil was the only agent, and that all reference to the serpent is allegorical.
The Scriptures seem to accord more nearly with the third of these theories. There
appears to be no valid objection to the acceptance of it.
(1) It is not inconsistent with the power ascribed to Satan that he should
thus enter the form of a creature already in existance, or even assume the
appearance of a creature. "For even Satan fashioned himself into an angel of light."
2 Cor. 11:14. The temptation of Jesus shows that Satan can assume a bodily form.
Mere mental suggestion cannot account for all that then occurred. It is necessary
to believe that he appeared in a physical form to our Lord and addressed him in words
uttered with the voice. This is involved in the offer recorded in Luke 4:7. "If
thou therefore wilt worship before me it shall all be thine."
(2) The force of the objection from the curse against the serpent, as against an
innocent animal,vanishes with the light thrown by modern science upon creation.
This shows that the serpent has always had its present form. The curse, therefore,
so far as uttered against the animal is merely equivalent to an assertion of the
continuance of what had always been, and only places before man a constant and dreaded
memorial of the first sin. This is consistent with God's method ofcursing and blessing
as seen in the bow of Noah, Gen. 9:8-17, and Jacob's language as to Simeon and Levi in
Gen. 49:5-7.
(3) This third theory is favoured by the following facts:
1. The title serpent and dragon is given elsewhere in Scripture to Satan. Rev. 12:3-9,
12-17 & 13:2-4. The old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan. Matt. 3:7,
where John calls the Pharisees "an offspring of vipers," and compare it with John 8:44,
our Lord's language: "Ye are of your father the devil." The narrative in Genesis demands
more than mental suggestion through a mere animal. A characteristic special subtlety is
ascribed to the serpent. If the temptation of Eve arose from mere mental suggestion to
her by the purposeless acts of a purely irrational animal, the mention of this subtlety
is unaccountable. The thoughts suggested could not have arisen in the mind alone. These
are that death would not ensue and that the knowledge of good and evil would elevate them
to godlike status. The subsequent references in the Scriptures to this transaction show
that this was the beginning of the great struggle of Satan for the ruin of man, which was
to end in his destruction by the man Christ Jesus, through the seed of the woman.
4. In the New Testament it is directly asserted that in various forms Satan seduced our
first parents into sin. In Rev. 12:9, it is said, 'The great dragon was that old serpent,
called the Devil, and Satan.' In 2 Cor. 11:3, Paul says, 'I fear lest ... as the serpent
beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so also your minds should be corrupted from the
simplicity that is in Christ.' By that the serpent is understood to be Satan from
2 Cor. 11: 14, and what is said in Rom. 16:20, 'The God of peace shall bruise Satan under
your feet,' is an obvious allusion to Gen. 3:15. In John 8:44, our Lord calls the Devil a
'murderer from the beginning, and the father of lies, because through him sin and death
were introduced into the world,'- Hodge Systematic Theology.
Q
quadding101
Guest
God is a spirit beng and God made man and angel in His image. Man and angels r spirit being trapped inside a body. The difference between man and angels r, angels have a different body and have power and authority which man does not have yet. God created the angels to serve Him and fellowship with Him and He had a plan for man but things did not go as He wanted (perfect will) so man has gotten God's permissive will because of disobedience and is suffing for it. Lucifer was God's most beautiful angel and God's top angel as for power and authority. Lucifer once had authority over the earth even life and death but because of his rebellion the Son of God now has that authority. Lucifer is very powerful and no great thing for him to enter and possess an animal (snake) or transform his body into a snake.
B
Bob666
Guest
ChristineES said:
Your right here, christineES. Satan wasn't in the garden. He hadn't even been invented yet. In fact, Satan was taken from Zoroasterianism after the ancent Hebrews were taken to Babylon. Saten, himself was an idea that developed over time. This is why in some places in the bible, it is said that God sends lying spirits and such, while at other times its Satan who does the evil deeds. It isn't until the New Testament, years after the idea of a evil deity was developed, that we see Satan as the ultimate bad guy to tempt Jesus in the Wilderness. If you check a decent encyclopedia, you should find out more if your interested.
As for the Isaiah 14 passage, when read in context, it is an oracle.
Isaiah 14
1For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.
2And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.
3And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,
4That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
5The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.
6He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.
7The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.
8Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
9Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
18All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
19But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
20Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.
21Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.
22For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
23I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the LORD of hosts.
24The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
25That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.
26This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.
27For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?
28In the year that king Ahaz died was this burden.
29Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent.
30And the firstborn of the poor shall feed, and the needy shall lie down in safety: and I will kill thy root with famine, and he shall slay thy remnant.
31Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times.
32What shall one then answer the messengers of the nation? That the LORD hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it.
According to the Harpercollins Bible Commentary, it has this to say about the above passage:
Isaiah 14:1-27
1-2: The Captors are Captives. Judah and Israel are promised that those who took them into exile will one day become slaves themselves.
3-23: Taunt Against Babylon. The proud boasts of Judah's antagonist are portrayed as so pretentious as to be an assault on heaven itself (vv. 13-14). Hence, Babylon faces complete humiliation. In mockery of Babylon's sense of superiority, the dead in the at once great nation will be left unburied in the streets.
24-27: Israel's Judgment Applied to Assyria. Judah is promised that Assyria will reap the same consequences as did Israel. The refrain in 5:25, 9:12, 17:12, 10:4 found within the framework around the testimony of Isaiah, is taken up and applied to Assyria (14:26-27). Likewise, the author proclaims a fulfillment of the promise in 9:4 reguarding God's breaking of the "yoke" and "burden' that troubles Judah.
28-32Against Philistia. Its title indicates that the date of the oracle in 14:28-32 coincides with the death of Ahaz, even as the commission report in Isaiah 6 is dated to the year Uzziah died. The death of a king represented a momentous and potentialy dangerous period in which some word from God might seem timely. As in 10:5, a Mesopotamian power is called a "rod" of God, Philistia will suffer the effects of famine and destruction.
As you see, there is nothing mentioned about Satan. The term Lucifer is used as a metaphor for the fall of Babylon.
J
John the Baptist
Guest
Hi, you need more study! :roll:
---John
---John
B
Bob666
Guest
What do you mean? Please explain where I'm wrong?
B
Bob666
Guest
Satan
Here's an interesting thread from over at the Internet Infidels website that discusses this very topic. Pleas note the part where 18th, 19th, and even 20th century christian theologians disagree with the idea of Lucifer in Isaish 14 being the devil.
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/archive/index.php/t-56457.html
For the encyclopedia article I mentioned, here is one from MSN Encarta:
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761570625/Devil.html
Please note:
Most other encylcopedias will agree with this.
There is also this from Religious Tolerance.org:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_sat2.htm#bce
Happy reading.
Bob
Here's an interesting thread from over at the Internet Infidels website that discusses this very topic. Pleas note the part where 18th, 19th, and even 20th century christian theologians disagree with the idea of Lucifer in Isaish 14 being the devil.
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/archive/index.php/t-56457.html
For the encyclopedia article I mentioned, here is one from MSN Encarta:
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761570625/Devil.html
Please note:
Most other encylcopedias will agree with this.
There is also this from Religious Tolerance.org:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_sat2.htm#bce
Happy reading.
Bob
Ã
ÃÂoppleganger
Guest
Wow i wonder if Jesus made this up then?
---------
Mark 3:23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
Mark 3:26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
Mark 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
----------
Pa'shaw Ren!
---------
Mark 3:23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
Mark 3:26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
Mark 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
----------
Pa'shaw Ren!