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Bible Study Satan: There before Adam & Eve?

By the time Jesus would have spoken, if he said these words at all, the idea of Satan being a fallen angel from heaven was well established. Jesus would have thought nothing of using it in this manner and his listeners would have understood.

In my humble opinion, of course.
 
Re: Satan

Bob666 said:
Here's an interesting thread from over at the Internet Infidels website that discusses this very topic. Pleas note the part where 18th, 19th, and even 20th century christian theologians disagree with the idea of Lucifer in Isaish 14 being the devil.

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/archive/index.php/t-56457.html

For the encyclopedia article I mentioned, here is one from MSN Encarta:

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761570625/Devil.html

Please note:

In later Jewish tradition, and thus also in early Christian thought, the title becomes a proper name; Satan begins to be seen as an adversary not only of human beings but alsoâ€â€and even primarilyâ€â€of God. This development is probably a result of the influence of Persian dualistic philosophy, with its opposing powers of good (Ahura Mazda) and evil (Angra Mainyu).
Click to expand...

Most other encylcopedias will agree with this.

There is also this from Religious Tolerance.org:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_sat2.htm#bce

Happy reading.

Bob
Click to expand...

*******
Who in the world needs this stuff??? :sad Not me for sure, no wonder we see Revelation 17:5 ones the ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH.
The Word of God is its OWN hermeneutics.
Below is my take on God's Word by [my] study! See Romans 8:14 & 1 John 4:6
_______

---The Word identifies 's'atan & his chief attacks!---

As Christ Tel's Peter.. "Get behind me satan", He now gives the message behind the message. In Ezekiel 28 we can see the same usage by the Word of God portraying the prince of Tyrus as Lucifer (satan) before his fall. Unless one has some off the wall 'wisdom' that the guy of Tyrus was created perfect & was in heaven at one time?? :o See on Isaiah 14:12-14 for the !,!,!,!,!'s bottom line trouble.

One can compare & see that this is conformably understood by most folk.

I want to check out a couple of the many thoughts that these verses bring out.
'Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. ' ... Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; ... Thou wast perfect in the days that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee'. ... And it also says: .. 'the workmanship of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.'

Just ask yourself, seeing that Lucifer was as stated in the chapter, as having the highest position in heavens throne room, before the Godhead themselves! where would he after his fall, now center his most ferocious satanic attack? Surely satan would use his 'agents' (see Genesis 4:7) to call all of his 'evil' work, 'fiction', huh? THAT WORK IS ETERNALLY SICK! See Revelation 22:18-19 WARNING!

Anything to get God's creation eyes off of the Christ of the Gospel!!
As was pointed out, satan's work is & was always CENTERFOLD against Christ! (the Lamb of God) Also remember that Lucifer was one of the covering Angel's over the Ark of God's Royal-Eternal-Covenant, the 10 Commandment Law of the *Universe! (Hebrews 13:20 - James 2:8-12 - Revelation 11:19 - Revelation 22:9)

And, one can readily see the attack on the Doctrine of Christ God! (2 John 1:9-11) Then comes His Covenant Law the ten commandments! (Isaiah 8:20 - Daniel 7:25 1 John 2:4)

And there is yet more! The 'lovers of pleasure more than the lovers of God'?? These above are prime targets of satan & his Genesis 4:7 'Desired' helpers, but remember Ezekiel 28:13! And with the above perversion in place, now is needed some excitement, we see in today's setting, another good tool being used as a perverted tool of satan! That of supposed music! Right out of the jungle, with drums & emotions, huh?? (jumping 'beans'(?) or you name it?????) Great noise, hollering, shouting, clapping with 'professed' music! And in the name of Christianity!

Then see Revelation 17:5's 'leadership' using the educated PH.D. ones(?) with their reams & reams of printed commentary 'stuff', directly out of satans abominal junkyard to accomplish his mission! Where no two hardly agree on anything.
Then, take note of Revelation 18:4 with the Master's WARNING, and the reason why!!!!

And we are again hearing satan telling us that his REBELLION in heaven is only a fictitious myth! What is new God asks? Nothing! Ecclesiastes 1:9-10
Naw, these 'posts' can all go back to the trash can of Obadiah 1:16.

---John
 
Boy thats Dumb,
he can raise himself from the dead but he cant figure out, satans just a myth. He can chase demons out in his name, and they recognize him for who he is, yet the demons who cry out against him not 2 send them 2 the abyss dont know so! So, the tempation and his suffering is a lie also?

Mark 5:2-17
2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:
4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.
5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.
6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.
9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.
10 And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.
11 Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.
12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.
13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea.
14 And they that fed the swine fled, and told it in the city, and in the country. And they went out to see what it was that was done.
15 And they come to Jesus, and see him that was possessed with the devil, and had the legion, sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.
16 And they that saw it told them how it befell to him that was possessed with the devil, and also concerning the swine.
17 And they began to pray (demand) him (jesus) to depart out of their coasts.
 
ÃÂoppleganger said:
"Boy thats Dumb,
he can raise himself from the dead but he cant figure out, satans just a myth. ..."

****
I agree with your above assessment, if you are talking about the post?!

(or is that a tongue in cheek posting??)

See Jude 1:12, but these surely are not this 'theology' of your 'post', huh?

Notice the K.J. with ".. feeding themselves [without] fear; clouds [they] are without water, [carried about of winds;] trees whose fruit withereth, [without fruit], [twice dead], (prophesied second death in other Words! Revelation 20:14 :sad ) plucked up by the roots; .. "

---John
Click to expand...
 
I don't see satan as a real thing, but more temptation and bad things tempting us to sin. When Jesus was in the wilderness I see him as casting away evil and temptation and devoting himself to god.
 
RichardE40K said:
I don't see satan as a real thing, but more temptation and bad things tempting us to sin. When Jesus was in the wilderness I see him as casting away evil and temptation and devoting himself to god.
Click to expand...

*******
Hay, you are on a forum that some really do believe what Christ says! You seem to want to know truth???? So why not use the Word of God to be its OWN hermeneutics?
Had you ever read Psalms 77:13? (K.J.) If you believe the verse, then this is the study that you need, even if you do not believe? this still is where all Bible truth is taught 'bottom line' from.
---John
 
Come again. I belive what Jesus said. And yes it would be wierd if all people on here didnt seeing as it is a christian forum. Anyway I just see Satan or the devil as a symbol for the actual evil in the world and temptation, whats so wrong with that. Am i getting attacked over this now? Does this ever end?
 
RichardE40K said:
Come again. I belive what Jesus said. And yes it would be wierd if all people on here didnt seeing as it is a christian forum. Anyway I just see Satan or the devil as a symbol for the actual evil in the world and temptation, whats so wrong with that. Am i getting attacked over this now? Does this ever end?
Click to expand...

****
Richard, I have been addressing your posts I think??? But now am wondering how you as a person get the thought ... "Am i getting attacked over this now?" [and] "Does this ever end?" (and yes, I John, see the question marks!)

You had come across as looking for truth to me? that was why I asked the questions that I did.
But, it is hard for me to reply to some 'postings' when most 'even' seem to take it personal, and seem to think that I am perhaps attacking the poster?

I am not on here (this forum) to defend myself wasting Christ's time.

--John
 
Boy thats Dumb,
he can raise himself from the dead but he cant figure out, satans just a myth. He can chase demons out in his name, and they recognize him for who he is, yet the demons who cry out against him not 2 send them 2 the abyss dont know so! So, the tempation and his suffering is a lie also?
Click to expand...

Jesus' resurrection, the casting out of devils, the temptation, and such come from oral tradition. None of which are meant to be taken as historical fact. This does not mean that they are "lies," because when the writer wrote them, he probably believed them to be true. They would fall under the catagory of legend.

As I stated, according to Jesus, at the time he said these things, (if he said these things to begin with), he would have truly thought Satan was a real entity because the people of his time thought Satan to be a real entity.

There is no way to tell wither or not the real Jesus believed in Satan or not. All we have are books based on copies of copies of stories based on stories that was told for twenty to fifty years after the actual events took place. Stories that have been wrapped in myth and legend through oral tradition.

Bob
 
Its not legend its a fact, these verses were in a historical context not an allegorical 1, why do u think they got so upset at him for driving 2000 pigs into the sea? Why did they send jesus away? Because of what he did! I beg u dont send his spirit away from ur heart with this foolish talk? These things maybe a couple 1000 of yrs old but there as true 2day as they were then!
Its amazing how many are deceived in this "christian forum"!?! I mean its like this place attracts demons almost!

Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. (Allegorical but treated as true to the fictional facts)

Luke 4:33-37
And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice, Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God. And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him. And when the devil had thrown him in the midst, he came out of him, and hurt him not. And they were all amazed, and spake among themselves, saying, What a word is this! for with authority and power he commandeth the unclean spirits, and they come out. And the fame of him went out into every place of the country round about. (Fact not Fiction in front of those who would later him kill him, as a testimony of His power against them)

Luke 9:38-44
And, behold, a man of the company cried out, saying, Master, I beseech thee, look upon my son: for he is mine only child. And, lo, a spirit taketh him, and he suddenly crieth out; and it teareth him that he foameth again, and bruising him hardly departeth from him. And I besought thy disciples to cast him out; and they could not. And Jesus answering said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you, and suffer you? Bring thy son hither. And as he was yet a coming, the devil threw him down, and tare him. And Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the child, and delivered him again to his father. And they were all amazed at the mighty power of God. But while they wondered every one at all things which Jesus did, he said unto his disciples, Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men. (Just as before but in the context of his eminent demise - Not Fiction But Fact)

Maybe you need to go to Ed and Lorraine Warrens Site. Supernatural literally means more natural. In Satans case though its just the opposite!
 
Bob666 said:
Boy thats Dumb,
he can raise himself from the dead but he cant figure out, satans just a myth. He can chase demons out in his name, and they recognize him for who he is, yet the demons who cry out against him not 2 send them 2 the abyss dont know so! So, the tempation and his suffering is a lie also?
Click to expand...

Jesus' resurrection, the casting out of devils, the temptation, and such come from oral tradition. None of which are meant to be taken as historical fact. This does not mean that they are "lies," because when the writer wrote them, he probably believed them to be true. They would fall under the catagory of legend.

As I stated, according to Jesus, at the time he said these things, (if he said these things to begin with), he would have truly thought Satan was a real entity because the people of his time thought Satan to be a real entity.

There is no way to tell wither or not the real Jesus believed in Satan or not. All we have are books based on copies of copies of stories based on stories that was told for twenty to fifty years after the actual events took place. Stories that have been wrapped in myth and legend through oral tradition.

Bob
Click to expand...

******
OK, I 'see' now, you were the dumb one that the posters 'post' was talking about. Amen to his message! :wink:

But let me just add, that until one has been actually raised from the dead.. being BORN AGAIN, they will never understand Matthew 4:4 & 2 Timothy 3:16 either.
So the end result is Obadiah 1:16 for an eternity of 'as though they had never been', think on this as [your] so called 'myth' before retiring in sleep tonight!

I will pray the Lord's Spirit gives you some conviction before falling into unconsciousness> see Genesis 6:6! Remember though, that it is not possible to really believe until a change takes place! One MUST BE BORN AGAIN! See Acts 9 (READ IT OK?) What made the person change from an unbelieving killer to a follower of the ones that he too(?) was butchering??? (you do understand what Hebrews 6:6 does to some of us, right?)

Anyhow: And if nothing better comes from you tomorrow? I will leave you with the Titus 3:9-11 thought for more of your 'myth' and your 'posts' great wisdom. See Ephesians 6:12 :sad

---John
 
Im Confused JtheB do u believe in Satan or not? U tend to ramble on a bit also? What are u saying, exactly? The message doesn't seem to clear?
 
ÃÂoppleganger said:
Im Confused JtheB do u believe in Satan or not? U tend to ramble on a bit also? What are u saying, exactly? The message doesn't seem to clear?
Click to expand...

*****
John here: See if this old post helps?
____

What was BEFORE the creation Adam?? Much! But nothing was before the EVERLASTING GOSPEL & the EVERLASTING COVENANT of Rev. 14:6 & Heb. 13:20.
Yet, Adam was created, but the Everlasting Gospel & Covenant are as the mind of the Godhead, Eternal! Immortal! See 2 Corinthians 3:3.

It seems that with FAITH or BELIEF, one can still be 'spoon-fed with the Truth, yet, that of Heb. 5's 'milk' is reaching out for meat obtained by [Faith & Belief!!]
The above questions ARE ANSWERED by the GodHead, 'if' (Conditional, huh!) one REALLY BELIEVES the WORD OF GOD! IF ONE REALLY HAS FAITH IN THE MASTER'S WORDS!

Notice: "THE THING THAT [HATH BEEN IT IS THAT WHICH SHALL BE]; AND THAT [WHICH IS DONE IS THAT WHICH SHALL BE DONE]: AND THERE IS [NO NEW THING UNDER THE SUN.]" Even a young un/converted kid can understand that TRUTH!

And then what do we hear from us mature adults?? Well maybe Lord! Or that this is not 'Inspiration'! Or look at the 'arm of flesh', huh? (their words & the reams & reams of mans Ph. D. Matt. 25 FOOLISH junk!!) This, one belives!?

Well: Because there are SO FEW times that this is not to God's providence, He tell us of these rather the other way around. (if you can follow that?) He tells us that there will never be another world flood! He tells us that 'sin WILL NOT ARISE A SECOND TIME' Na. 1:9 And but very few others, such as the rain shall fall on the just & the unjust alike.

So, does that cause you to now BELIEVE GOD? (naw!) We are bent on not believing God's Word! (regardless of what we profess, huh?) Or that.. God did not say that there was something that was not NEW, clear enough!! ??

But 'think', just [IF] you could [BELIEVE THE WORD OF GOD], think of how easy it would be to understand the book of Revelation! Or the first history of Israel of old! OR THE REBELLION THAT [*ORIGINATED] (first) IN HEAVEN!! (Rev. 12:7-12) Or even the first pro/created of Adam & Eve's son, Cain, who fell while in 'MATURITY on earth! Gen. 4:6-7.

Now, who was it that was BEFORE Cain's [MATURE] Apostasy? Well, read the verse, he was right there beside his subject Cain, that Christ was talking with! The satan serpent of Rev. 12! The one cast out of heaven. See Eze. 28. Cain was Adams first son who rebelled, so God has told us that Lucifer was the Godheads first created one in heaven that rebelled!

OK: One more verse! Will you believe it?? In Eccl. 3:14-15 some 'see' again the [SECOND TIME] God telling us a shortcut for the understanding of His Truth (WORD) to us. Notice first the verse 14 Word, for this Word reiterates the closing Words of His complete Word to us. Check the last few verses of Rev.'s verses 18-19 of how mankind has his name [REMOVED FROM THE BOOK OF LIFE]. (remember, that to be removed, it had to be there in the FIRST place)

And verse 15 of Eccl. 3 tells it SO CLEARLY [AGAIN THE SECOND TIME] that you would need the Ph. D's stuff, that none agree on anyhow, to be in the Babylon confusion of Rev. 17:5

The GODHEAD RECORDS *AGAIN:
"THAT WHICH [HATH BEEN IS NOW] AND THAT [WHICH IS TO BE IS ALREADY BEEN]: AND [GOD *REQUIRES THAT WHICH IS PAST]". Now what?
Even the 'BLIND' ones of Rev. 3:16-17 are fulfilling this Truth! Not just the ones of Rev. 17:5.
In closing, read Eze. 33:30-32 for the last time prophecy!
 
John here with another old post:
___________________________


---The Word identifies 's'atan & his chief attacks!---

As Christ Tel's Peter.. "Get behind me satan", He now gives the message behind the message. In Ezekiel 28 we can see the same usage by the Word of God portraying the prince of Tyrus as Lucifer (satan) before his fall. See on Isaiah 14:12-14 for the !,!,!,!,! bottom line trouble.

One can compare & see that this is conformably understood by most folk.

I just want to check out a couple of the many thoughts that these verses bring out.
'Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. ' ... Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; ... Thou wast perfect in the days that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee'. ... And it also says: .. 'the workmanship of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.'

I just want to ask, seeing that Lucifer was as stated in the chapter, as having the highest position in heavens throne room, before the Godhead themselves! where would he after his fall, now center his most ferocious satanic attack?

As was pointed out, CENTERFOLD was against Christ! (the Lamb of God) Also remember that Lucifer was one of the covering Angel's over the Ark of God's Royal-Eternal-Covenant, the 10 Commandment Law of the *Universe! (Hebrews 13:20 - James 2:8-12 - Revelation 11:19 - Revelation 22:9)

And, one can readily see the attack on the Doctrine of Christ God! (2 John 1:9-11) Then comes His Covenant Law the ten commandments! (Isaiah 8:20 - Daniel 7:25 1 John 2:4)

And there is yet more! The 'lovers of pleasure than the lovers of God'?? These above are prime targets of satan & his Genesis 4:7 'Desired' helpers, but remember Ezekiel 28:13! With the above perversion in place, now is needed some excitement, we see in today's setting, another good tool being used as a perverted tool of satan! That of supposed music! Right out of the jungle, with drums & emotions, huh?? (jumping 'beans'(?) or you name it?????) Great noise, hollering, shouting, clapping with 'professed' music! And in the name of Christianity! See Revelation 17:5 & Revelation 18:4 !!!!
 
Its not legend its a fact, these verses were in a historical context not an allegorical 1, why do u think they got so upset at him for driving 2000 pigs into the sea? Why did they send jesus away? Because of what he did! I beg u dont send his spirit away from ur heart with this foolish talk? These things maybe a couple 1000 of yrs old but there as true 2day as they were then!
Its amazing how many are deceived in this "christian forum"!?! I mean its like this place attracts demons almost!
Click to expand...

Actually I believe your mistaken. If it were a fact, then there would be evidence to point towards it. Unfortunatly, there is no such thing. We have no writings of the apostles themselves saying, "Our Lord and saviour cast out demons into a heard of swine today, and I saw it with my own eyes." nor do we have letters from the swines owner saying, "Some guy from over across the way did a miracle that cost me money today when he ran my pigs into the river and caused them to drown." There is no ancient historian of the first century citing the incident as fact. All we have, as I stated, is hearsay upon hearsay, passed on for years after the fact by people who never even knew Jesus himself, who died a generation or two before anybody thought to write anything down. Even then the writers had an agenda, since they were trying to propagate their religion, and incentive to imbelish whatever stories they heard, to compete with pagan religions that thrived along side christianity.

Sorry to say that as history, this story does not stand up.

For seeing one point as how this story might be considered as allegory:


http://atheism.about.com/od/biblegospelofmark/a/mark05b.htm

As for the supernatural, the problem is, once you factor it in, then anything goes. Let me give you an example: Lets say that I say that the planets of our solar system are being pushed by invisible angels. In a world where supernatural things happen, this statement could be taken at face value. There would be no need to explain anything else and I would have to have no evidence to justify my claim. But, we don't live in a supernatural world and since this is true, I would need to justify my claim about angels pushing the planets. The same applies to anything supernatural, be it ghosts, angels, or gods. If you have evidence to show that such things exists, and the evidence stands up to critical thinking and examination by experts in the field, then please show it. In fact, earn yourself a cool million dollars by doing so:


http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

As to you, John. I would love to comment on your posts, but I have NO idea what you are saying. If you have an argument or post that you think undermines my own, please state it so that I can understand it and respond in kind. Otherwise, it looks like you are just throwing out bible verses at random and rambling on about anything that comes to mind.

And as for 'the post' as you like to call it. You are the one who stated that I need to do more research, and when I show you some of my research to back up my claims, you simply dismiss them entirly with "who needs this stuff? not me." Not the greatest way to try to understand the bible, John.

Another thing I would like to add is that you state:

So why not use the Word of God to be its OWN hermeneutics?
Click to expand...

The problem with this stance is that almost every holy book can be proven by this method. The Gita and the Quran are just two of the books that claim to be the Word of God, which means that these books as well can be used by their "own hermeneutics" just like the Bible.


Bob
 
JtheB ? Nevermind, just take ur Litium or Paxol its running low!

Bob666 i know why that # is after your name! :P ppfffffffffffff

Tell Mary Magdelene or Lazarus, They were fictional too i suppose!

Bye :evil:

Clear references by Thallus and Julias Africanus to the miraculous darkness surrounding the Crucifixion of the Lord documented even to the hours by Phlegon is powerful evidence for the existence of Jesus. The reliability of the gospel accounts that describe that phenomena show in the public records of the day a fearful darkness during the cruxifiction and man's rejection of the Light of the World. Remind you of anything today?

I wont get into the Talmud yet but I'll leave you with this ->

John 9:24-34
Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner. He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see. Then said they to him again, What did he to thee? how opened he thine eyes? He answered them, I have told you already, and ye did not hear: wherefore would ye hear it again? will ye also be his disciples? Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' disciples. We know that God spake unto Moses: as for this fellow, we know not from whence he is. The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and yet he hath opened mine eyes. Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth. Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind. If this man were not of God, he could do nothing. They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.

And This ->

Luke 13:1-5
There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
 
ÃÂoppleganger
123 Christian Friend


Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 147

Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:15 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

JtheB ? Nevermind, just take ur Litium or Paxol its running low!

********

I rarely do this forum, :wink: but, with a handel like Doppleganger?? I truly wonder about this above 'prescribed' stuff?

And then again, this prove's the Lord's point of there being satanic 'very little' helpers of satan, with his 'desire'. Gen. 4:7 ='s Matthew 10:25 or some kind of belittling remark :roll:
 
Sorry, your just rambling on? I got this name because i use to use it as a player character in a game i use to play! Then when the expansion came out they named a game character after me, though they spelled it different!Doppelganger. Anyways if you've ever played Dungeon Siege check it out! I just cant figure out what ur saying? Its just like alphabet soup to me? What is your thesis in a few simple lines? And Do u believe in the Devil Yes or No?
 
To say that Satan was in the garden of Eden before Adam and Eve is an absoulute nonsense. The garden was created for "Adam" not the devil. Who in their right mind would suggest that God would place Satan into the garden so that he could tempt man. God never planned the fall of Adam and Eve and he certainly never placed Satan in the garden to instigate it.

with love and respect, Andy153
 
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