Satan winning battle for souls

[Heidi]

No you aren't. You're omitting Romans 9:11-25 & John 6:63-64. So try again. ;)

Those verses pertain to this debate in absolutely no way. And I still don't see how I am:

1. Making Scripture contradict itself.

2. Making it sound like God chooses everyone (something I vehemently oppose by the way).

Please tell me why you got these impressions and I will explain.

Romans 9:11, "Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God's purpose in election might stand, not by works, but by him who calls, she was told, 'the older will serve the younger. Jacob I loved, Esau I hated."

God had already determined that Esau was not one of his chosen any more than Ishmael was. So your claims that God chooses everybody are incorrect because they contradict scripture.

 

[Unlimited]

No you aren't. You're omitting Romans 9:11-25 & John 6:63-64. So try again. ;)

Those verses pertain to this debate in absolutely no way. And I still don't see how I am:

1. Making Scripture contradict itself.

2. Making it sound like God chooses everyone (something I vehemently oppose by the way).

Please tell me why you got these impressions and I will explain.

Romans 9:11, "Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God's purpose in election might stand, not by works, but by him who calls, she was told, 'the older will serve the younger. Jacob I loved, Esau I hated."

God had already determined that Esau was not one of his chosen any more than Ishmael was. So your claims that God chooses everybody are incorrect because they contradict scripture.

Ok.

Let me say this once again:

God does not choose everybody.

 

[Heidi]

Then we're in agreement.

 

[Unlimited]

Then we're in agreement.

Yes. Now that we've gotten that out of the way...

 

[Orion]

Well, at least we now have an answer to the OP. God isn't losing the battle for souls, . . . he just plays favorites, and in no apparent reasoning, . . . . and in a highly racial kind of way. Thanks for the insights.

 

[bleitzel]

Romans 9:11, "Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God's purpose in election might stand, not by works, but by him who calls, she was told, 'the older will serve the younger. Jacob I loved, Esau I hated."

God had already determined that Esau was not one of his chosen any more than Ishmael was. So your claims that God chooses everybody are incorrect because they contradict scripture.

Heidi, the understanding you've gotten from these verses is incorrect. Paul is showing that God indeed HAS chosen everybody (not to salvation, I'm not preaching universalism, it's to something else) but you're getting out of his words that Paul is saying God has chosen only a few.

Earlier you even said that if that were so the words chosen and elect wouldn't even be in the Bible. But what happened was that all throughout the Old Testament, the Jews thought that their being chosen as God's people meant that they were this select, chosen group. And the Gentiles were not. Just as you are taking the understanding that Chirstians are this new chosen group.

But Paul is actually saying that where the Jews thought they were chosen, the Gentiles were chosen also! (Eph, 1:11) In all his epistles, when Paul is talking about the chosen ones he is using affirmative words to lift up the Gentiles who were told incorrectly for centuries that they were unchosen, unloved by God.

 

[bleitzel]

God does not choose everybody.

I would argue that He in fact does choose everybody.

 

[Heidi]

Heidi, the understanding you've gotten from these verses is incorrect. Paul is showing that God indeed HAS chosen everybody (not to salvation, I'm not preaching universalism, it's to something else) but you're getting out of his words that Paul is saying God has chosen only a few.

Wrong. God has chosen only Israel. He did not choose Ishmael and his descendants any more than he chose Esau. It's no coincidence that Esau abandoned God because God ordained that before Esau was born as He said.

It's also no coincidence that the bible isn't about Esau and his descendants any more than it's about Ishmael and his descendants. It's about Isaac and Jacob's descendants because Israel are God's chosen people.

Psalm 149:19, "He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. He has done this for no other nation." That is not a lie. Romans 9:6-9 explains that the real Israel are not the natural descendants of Abraham but the children of the promise who are Abraham's seed. Galatians 3:29 also says; "If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed."

That means that God's elect, chosen before the creation of the world whether Jew or Gentile are Israel.

So you are incorrect when you say that everyone is chosen. Matthew 22:14, "For many are invited but few are chosen." My interpretation contradicts zero scripture and your interpretation contradicts much scripture so it is incorrect.

 

[mutzrein]

Well said Heidi!