Satan winning battle for souls

[bleitzel]

One cannot choose God unless God has opened his eyes. Otherwise he just can't. (Romans 8:7)

Just two verse earlier though in Romans 8:5 Paul points out the opposite, that men have both natures and choose which nature to serve.

 

[Unlimited]

Ok, you're right that He does not delight in the deaths of the wicked and wants everyone to be saved. But I can't agree with you when you say no one wants to choose God, period. You're painting man as not having the ability to choose God and that flies in the face of scripture.

I totally disagree with you. The Bible is very clear that a being tainted by sin cannot choose God.

Yes, everyone has betrayed God, and every person deserves eternal punishment, the good thing is God has justified us, set aside the sins of the whole world (everyone, not just some 'elect' group) if we'll just accept His sacrifice and humble ourselves and repent.

I disagree. Justification means that God has saved us. Saving everyone means universalism, a heresy. And as most people do not accept Jesus, his sacrifice has for the most part been wasted.

God did choose a people unto Himself but by saying it was just His plan you're essentially saying you have no idea why he did it. The reason He picked Israel to be His people, the reason why he picked the nomadic, poor gypsies of the desert, the lowliest people anywhere, people without a land to call home, as His people was because He wanted to show His glory to all the nations of the earth. By working in them and through them to raise them up to be a great nation He knew that there couldn’t be any doubt that in the end everyone would have to say ‘it was God who did this, not the Israelites.’ The reason choosing Abram was part of His plan was so that we would have evidence that God is merciful, God is just, and maybe most importantly in this context that God does have sovereignty over our lives and can do whatever He wishes with us, if He so chooses.

I'm sorry if I sounded like that was what I was saying. But, yeah, what you just said was his plan.

Salvation is for the glory of God, not man, but to say that God has chosen to save some and not save others blasphemes the very character of the God who is love.

If God chooses to save those who will forward his divine plan, it glorifies him the most. Quality over quantity.

 

[Orion]

Hey, I'm not running from the debate, but I have to leave my computer for the evening. Probably will be back tomorrow.

Besides, I bet $20 it will turn into a "Calvanism vs. Saved by grace" debate. ;)

 

[Unlimited]

One cannot choose God unless God has opened his eyes. Otherwise he just can't. (Romans 8:7)

Just two verse earlier though in Romans 8:5 Paul points out the opposite, that men have both natures and choose which nature to serve.

Paul says that there are two natures that can be found in man. One controlled by the Spirit, one controlled by sin. It never says that men choose which nature to serve. You have the first nature: the default, evil nature of man as inherited from Adam. Then you have the second nature: the restored, good nature of man bestowed on man by the Spirit of God.

The Soteriological debate is not a question of choice but how that choice can be made.

@Orion. See you later. And yep, that's what's going to happen, resulting in the topic's locking. :yes

 

[bleitzel]

1. If God is omniscient, he knows what has happened, what is happening, and what will happen. That does not necessarily mean he is the cause of all that is done.

Unlimited, omniscience does not mean God has to know everything, but if He does, you’re right in a way. Being all-knowing does not make god the author of evil, what would make such a god responsible for all evil that is done is if he would also be the creator of all things. You can’t have a god who creates all things, good and evil, who knows all things including that which he’s creating evil and then not be responsible for the evil that he created; which could do nothing other than be evil. Any attempt to say that god can do unjust things and yet still be just because he is god is a faulty argument. So is trying to say that god’s definition of justice is higher than our definition.

c. Is what he's [Luther] saying contradictory to the Bible? (Nope. Nothing in the Bible contradicts his point.)

Many of Luther’s points were very contradictory with scripture, as were Augustine’s.

 

[Unlimited]

Unlimited, omniscience does not mean God has to know everything, but if He does, you’re right in a way. Being all-knowing does not make god the author of evil, what would make such a god responsible for all evil that is done is if he would also be the creator of all things. You can’t have a god who creates all things, good and evil, who knows all things including that which he’s creating evil and then not be responsible for the evil that he created; which could do nothing other than be evil. Any attempt to say that god can do unjust things and yet still be just because he is god is a faulty argument. So is trying to say that god’s definition of justice is higher than our definition.

Don't worry. I don't plan on using any of those arguments. In my opinion, it all boils down to the definition of evil. I'd argue that evil is not a "thing". It is the result of any action contradictory to God in the sense that it is not created by God.

Many of Luther’s points were very contradictory with scripture, as were Augustine’s.

I am not familiar with all of their points. (Though I agree with a good deal that I do know). I was just saying that on the point that I mentioned, there is nothing in Scripture contradictory to it.

By the way, I got to go for a while. I'll probably be on later.

 

[bleitzel]

I totally disagree with you. The Bible is very clear that a being tainted by sin cannot choose God.

Romans 6:16 is just one of many passages that talk about our ability/responsibility to choose God, not sin.
“Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obeyâ€â€whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?â€Â

I disagree. Justification means that God has saved us. Saving everyone means universalism, a heresy. And as most people do not accept Jesus, his sacrifice has for the most part been wasted.

Only if you look at things from a closed, Calvinist perspective. Justification needs to be understood from a historical, biblical perspective. OT Jews were taught that sacrificing a goat would set aside their sins in God’s eyes, justifying them before God, for a time. They had to repeat this sacrifice over and over though, to cover over more and more of their sins. Christ’s death took the place of those sacrifices once and for all. But just like those previous sacrifices with animals, if we accept God’s redemption of our sins and go on sinning, we spit in His face. Justification does not mean eternal salvation, not if we acknowledge God’s gift and then throw it away.

Universalism is a heresy, many people WILL throw away the sacrifice of Christ.

But that does not mean that His sacrifice was wasted! God wanted to justify everyone so that we could choose whether or not to accept it. And that’s exactly what has happened. Christ’s sacrifice has perfectly achieved exactly what God’s plan was from the very outset.

 

[Unlimited]

Romans 6:16 is just one of many passages that talk about our ability/responsibility to choose God, not sin.
“Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obeyâ€â€whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?â€Â

I don't see how that contradicts anything that I said. We offer ourselves to sin as slaves because it is our corrupted nature to do so. Our actions are the result of our nature. We also offer ourselves to obedience as slaves because God enables us to.

Only if you look at things from a closed, Calvinist perspective. Justification needs to be understood from a historical, biblical perspective. OT Jews were taught that sacrificing a goat would set aside their sins in God’s eyes, justifying them before God, for a time. They had to repeat this sacrifice over and over though, to cover over more and more of their sins. Christ’s death took the place of those sacrifices once and for all. But just like those previous sacrifices with animals, if we accept God’s redemption of our sins and go on sinning, we spit in His face. Justification does not mean eternal salvation, not if we acknowledge God’s gift and then throw it away.

Ouch. Regardless, let's look at the word "justified". In the NIV, it appears in only one OT book, Psalms. In the KJV, it also appears in Job, Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel. None of these usages of the word have the same meaning when used in the NT. Paul teaches that salvation has 3 parts: Justification (we have been saved), Sanctification (we are being saved), and Glorification (we will be saved). This concept is used by Arminians too.

Universalism is a heresy, many people WILL throw away the sacrifice of Christ.

But that does not mean that His sacrifice was wasted! God wanted to justify everyone so that we could choose whether or not to accept it. And that’s exactly what has happened. Christ’s sacrifice has perfectly achieved exactly what God’s plan was from the very outset.

I see no evidence in Scripture of the concept of prevenient grace.

Quit frankly, neither of us are going to change our position, and this is starting to get really off-topic.

 

[azlan88]

What seems to be forgetten here is that whether people go to heaven or hell, God made us for His glory regardless of our eternal destiny. The Lord will glorify Himself alongside our salvation and in spite of our failures. So God has won. His will is always done.

 

[Heidi]

God wills that every soul be saved and come to heaven. Satan wants every soul to come to hell and spend eternity with him. Being that the Bible says that a large majority of people will go to hell, is Satan winning the battle for souls. Is God ok with losing this battle? Thoughts?

Wrong. John 6:40, "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life." So every other verse (and there are only a few) in the bible that says that God wants everyone to be saved is talking about His elect.

However, since only God knows who His elect are, then salvation is open to anyone who wants it. Psalm 146:19-20, "He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws."

So who is Israel? Romans 9:8 tells us, "In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are Abraham's offspring."

Galatians 3:29, "Anyone born of Christ is Abraham's seed."

So the real Israel are God's elect, chosen before the creation of the world. Again, since no one knows who they are, then salvation is open to anyone who wants it. It's a beautiful plan because it keeps God sovereign, yet opens up salvation to anyone who wants it because no person can say that God is not drawing him.

So Satan is not winning the souls that belong to God, nor can he ever over-ride the power of God. He is simply winning the souls who always belonged to him.

 

[jasoncran]

heidi that last line sounds a little calvinist, could you explain

jason

 

[Unlimited]

God wills that every soul be saved and come to heaven. Satan wants every soul to come to hell and spend eternity with him. Being that the Bible says that a large majority of people will go to hell, is Satan winning the battle for souls. Is God ok with losing this battle? Thoughts?

Wrong. John 6:40, "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life." So every other verse (and there are only a few) in the bible that says that God wants everyone to be saved is talking about His elect.

However, since only God knows who His elect are, then salvation is open to anyone who wants it. Psalm 146:19-20, "He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws."

So who is Israel? Romans 9:8 tells us, "In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are Abraham's offspring."

Galatians 3:29, "Anyone born of Christ is Abraham's seed."

So the real Israel are God's elect, chosen before the creation of the world. Again, since no one knows who they are, then salvation is open to anyone who wants it. It's a beautiful plan because it keeps God sovereign, yet opens up salvation to anyone who wants it because no person can say that God is not drawing him.

So Satan is not winning the souls that belong to God, nor can he ever over-ride the power of God. He is simply winning the souls who always belonged to him.

I'd say that God wants everyone to be saved, but his will is that everyone who looks upon him will be saved.

I'd agree completely with you on every other point. :D

 

[Heidi]

God wills that every soul be saved and come to heaven. Satan wants every soul to come to hell and spend eternity with him. Being that the Bible says that a large majority of people will go to hell, is Satan winning the battle for souls. Is God ok with losing this battle? Thoughts?

Wrong. John 6:40, "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life." So every other verse (and there are only a few) in the bible that says that God wants everyone to be saved is talking about His elect.

However, since only God knows who His elect are, then salvation is open to anyone who wants it. Psalm 146:19-20, "He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws."

So who is Israel? Romans 9:8 tells us, "In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are Abraham's offspring."

Galatians 3:29, "Anyone born of Christ is Abraham's seed."

So the real Israel are God's elect, chosen before the creation of the world. Again, since no one knows who they are, then salvation is open to anyone who wants it. It's a beautiful plan because it keeps God sovereign, yet opens up salvation to anyone who wants it because no person can say that God is not drawing him.

So Satan is not winning the souls that belong to God, nor can he ever over-ride the power of God. He is simply winning the souls who always belonged to him.

I'd say that God wants everyone to be saved, but his will is that everyone who looks upon him will be saved.

I'd agree completely with you on every other point. :D

You can say anything you want. But the bible says differently. ;) Your words will die when you die; only God's words will last throughout eternity. :yes

 

[Unlimited]

You can say anything you want. But the bible says differently. ;) Your words will die when you die; only God's words will last throughout eternity. :yes

Ouch.

The Bible says nothing in contrast to what I said. I reached a conclusion based on what the Bible was saying. But, whatever.

 

[Heidi]

You can say anything you want. But the bible says differently. ;) Your words will die when you die; only God's words will last throughout eternity. :yes

Ouch.

The Bible says nothing in contrast to what I said. I reached a conclusion based on what the Bible was saying. But, whatever.

Yes it does, "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated." Psalm 146:19,"He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. He has done this for no other nation." So I suggest you read the whole bible before you claim you know what it does or doesn't say. :halo

 

[Unlimited]

You can say anything you want. But the bible says differently. ;) Your words will die when you die; only God's words will last throughout eternity. :yes

Ouch.

The Bible says nothing in contrast to what I said. I reached a conclusion based on what the Bible was saying. But, whatever.

Yes it does, "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated." Psalm 146:19,"He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. He has done this for no other nation." So I suggest you read the whole bible before you claim you know what it does or doesn't say. :halo

Yes. God only revealed himself to Israel with the exception of a few individuals (Melchizedek comes to mind) due to his divine plan to pick said nation as HIS people, until he chose to reveal himself to the Gentiles as well. However, God later says in I Timothy that he "wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth" and in Ezekiel that he takes no delight in the deaths of the wicked. Based on the fact that not everyone becomes saved, I reasoned that while God wants everyone to be saved, he only saves those who call on him. Nowhere in Scripture contradicts this reasoning (including the verses you pointed out).

But, an opinion similar to your's has been in the back of mind for a few years now. In the context of the verse, 1 Timothy 2:4 seems to mean "all kinds of men" instead of "all man" based on verses 1 and 2.

In other words, the reconciliation between 1 Timothy 2:4/Ezekial 18:23 and the fact that not everyone is saved is one of my weaker subjects.

 

[Heidi]

Yes. God only revealed himself to Israel with the exception of a few individuals (Melchizedek comes to mind) due to his divine plan to pick said nation as HIS people, until he chose to reveal himself to the Gentiles as well. However, God later says in I Timothy that he "wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth" and in Ezekiel that he takes no delight in the deaths of the wicked. Based on the fact that not everyone becomes saved, I reasoned that while God wants everyone to be saved, he only saves those who call on him. Nowhere in Scripture contradicts this reasoning (including the verses you pointed out).

But, an opinion similar to your's has been in the back of mind for a few years now. In the context of the verse, 1 Timothy 2:4 seems to mean "all kinds of men" instead of "all man" based on verses 1 and 2.

In other words, the reconciliation between 1 Timothy 2:4/Ezekial 18:23 and the fact that not everyone is saved is one of my weaker subjects.

Again, read Romans 9:6-9 to see who Israel is. It's God's elect chosen before the creation of the world whether Jew or Gentile. So Psalm 147:19-20 is just as true today as it was then as Romans 9:6-9 and Galatians 3:29 explain. God also tells us whom He chooses and doesn't choose in Matthew 11:25-27, and 1 Corinthians 1:27-29, and it's not everybody. If it were everybody, then the words "chosen" and "elect' wouldn't even be in the bible. So you need to put scripture together, not make it contradict itself.

 

[Unlimited]

Yes. God only revealed himself to Israel with the exception of a few individuals (Melchizedek comes to mind) due to his divine plan to pick said nation as HIS people, until he chose to reveal himself to the Gentiles as well. However, God later says in I Timothy that he "wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth" and in Ezekiel that he takes no delight in the deaths of the wicked. Based on the fact that not everyone becomes saved, I reasoned that while God wants everyone to be saved, he only saves those who call on him. Nowhere in Scripture contradicts this reasoning (including the verses you pointed out).

But, an opinion similar to your's has been in the back of mind for a few years now. In the context of the verse, 1 Timothy 2:4 seems to mean "all kinds of men" instead of "all man" based on verses 1 and 2.

In other words, the reconciliation between 1 Timothy 2:4/Ezekial 18:23 and the fact that not everyone is saved is one of my weaker subjects.

Again, read Romans 9:6-9 to see who Israel is. It's God's elect chosen before the creation of the world whether Jew or Gentile. So Psalm 147:19-20 is just as true today as it was then as Romans 9:6-9 and Galatians 3:29 explain. God also tells us whom He chooses and doesn't choose in Matthew 11:25-27, and 1 Corinthians 1:27-29, and it's not everybody. If it were everybody, then the words "chosen" and "elect' wouldn't even be in the bible. So you need to put scripture together, not make it contradict itself.

I'm not making Scripture contradict itself in any way; I'm putting it together. Anyway, while in the OT Israel was God's ambassador to the rest of the world, the NT says that not all of the physical Israelites were spiritual Israelites. The spiritual Israelites, like you said, were chosen before the creation of the world. And I never said that God chooses everybody (universalism). I have no idea how you got that idea.

 

[Heidi]

No you aren't. You're omitting Romans 9:11-25 & John 6:63-64. So try again. ;)

 

[Unlimited]

No you aren't. You're omitting Romans 9:11-25 & John 6:63-64. So try again. ;)

Those verses pertain to this debate in absolutely no way. And I still don't see how I am:

1. Making Scripture contradict itself.

2. Making it sound like God chooses everyone (something I vehemently oppose by the way).

Please tell me why you got these impressions and I will explain.