Saul

[XTruth]

1 Samuel 9:1 - 31:4
Example of Saul from the book on www.conditionalsalvation.com

This is undeniable proof of a man anointed of God (1 Sam.9:15-17; 10:1), who had the new man (1 Sam.10:9; 2 Cor.5:17), and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (1 Sam.10:9-13; 11:6), which is only given to a saved man (Rom.8:14-17), falling from God?s mercy and grace (1 Sam.16:14; 2 Sam.7:15). This consistently happens to the disobedient servant of God (Ex.32:33; Dt.28:63). Besides the many verses giving the warnings and conditions that are set in place for God?s promises and judgments to be manifested, there are also many great personal examples such as Lucifer (Isa.14:12-15; Eze.28:11-17; Mat.25:41; Lk.10:18; Jn.8:44; Rev.20:1-10), holy angels (Gen.6:1-4; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:4-7; Isa.24:21; Mat.25:41; 2 Pt.2:4; Jude 6; Rev.12:3, 7-12), demons (Mat.8:29; Mk.5:7; Lk.8:28-32; Jas.2:19), Adam and Eve (Gen.2:17; 3:1-19; Lk.3:38; Rom.5:12-21; 2 Cor.11:3), many Israelites (Ex.15:13; 32:32-33; Lev.20:8; Dt.32:18; Ps.19:7; 1 Cor.10:1-18; Gal.4:28-29; Heb.2:1-4; Jude 5), Judas (Ps.41:9; 69:25-28; Mat.10:19-20; Lk.6:13; 22:3; Jn.12:6; 13:2; 17:2; Acts 1:20, 25), Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Tim.2:17-19), Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 4:32-5:11), and many other clear examples. But I believe the most compelling with the most detailed evidence is the story of the first king of Israel, named Saul. Saul eventually went into spiritualism (Lev.19:31; 20:6; 1 Sam.28), lost the Holy Spirit (1 Sam.16:12-23), died by way of suicide (1 Sam.31:1-6; 1 Cor.3:16-17), and was utterly cursed of God (1 Chr.10:13-14). To use Saul as an example, which conclusively disproves the doctrine of eternal security, we have to first establish without the shadow of a doubt that he was a saved and righteous man of God who later died a cursed man that?ll spend his eternal existence in eternal death by flame and fire. So first things first; we?ll prove that Saul was a man who had received freely the gift of eternal life that is presented at initial salvation; therefore, a born again child of God. Saul was chosen to be the first king of Israel and anointed by the main prophet of God at that time, whose name was Samuel and was the father of the prophets of that day (1 Sam.10:5, 12). Though that alone isn?t conclusive evidence of being a righteous man, it should make you wonder why God would choose an ungodly man to lead His sanctified people.
But 1 Samuel 10:9 does give us conclusive enough proof of a saved man; so much evidence is this that we could stop the search right now, but there?s more, so we won?t. Verse 9 says God gave Saul
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another heart. This is supported by Paul in 2 Corinthians 5:17-18 when he states that all redeemed men are new creatures. The new creature and new heart comparison isn?t figurative, but very literal. When all sins have been forgiven, the wages of what we?re owed for sin is gone, which is spiritual death. This brings life to our spirit, which was under the death penalty. All will die physically, save the Rapture saints, but only the ones who can be presented blameless before God will see eternal life (Eph.5:27; Jude 24). Being without sin makes us innocent and spiritually alive, void of the death penalty. Men were born again by faith through grace in Old Testament times, as they are now (Dt.32:18-19; Rom.4; Gal.3:8; 4:28-29; Heb.4:1-2; 11). Saul was welcomed by Samuel in 1 Samuel 9:15-27 where he was told to feast with him today, and tomorrow Samuel would tell Saul what was in his heart (vs.19). In 1 Samuel 10:1-8, Samuel anointed Saul?s head with oil and kissed him with a holy kiss, and then prophesied unto Saul with four signs that would confirm God?s choice as king. King Saul is noted throughout history as the most prideful, selfish, and jealous man written of in the Bible. To be told by a prophet of God of your future kingship over the people of God is a major thing. But notice in 1 Samuel 10:15 that Abner, Saul?s uncle (1 Sam.14:50), had a feeling that Samuel and Saul had some understanding between them; hence, he inquired of what was said. Saul kept it a secret, which is not in the nature of a prideful, self-exalted man. Saul showed humility and modesty, which was his nature before his fall of sinful, jealous, and selfish rages against God?s ways and humanity. So in summary of the evidentiary proof that Saul was a saved man, lets recap. The Spirit of God came upon him (1 Sam.10:6, 10-13; 11:6). Nowhere in recorded Scripture does God intercept a demon speaking through a man and substitute the Holy Spirit. God only uses the righteous to prophesy. He was turned to another man, which is the new man (1 Sam.10:6; 2 Cor.5:17-21; Eph.4:20-24; Col.3:8-10). God was with him (1 Sam.10:7) and was given a new heart (1 Sam.10:9). None of the above has ever been said about an unregenerate man. Saul was a born again and righteous man who according to those who believe the “once saved, always saved†doctrine, could not have lost his salvation. It?s now time for the overwhelming proof that?ll completely annihilate that false doctrine. God was with Saul, as stated in 1 Samuel 10:7, as long as Saul stayed with God; but when Saul sinned and rejected Him (1 Sam.13:8-14; 15:16-30), the Lord departed and took the Holy Spirit from him (1 Sam.16:14; 18:12). God promises to deny, forsake, and cast off anyone who denies Him and forsakes Him in the New Testament (2 Tim.2:12) and in the Old Testament (Dt.31:17; Josh.24:20; 2 Ki.21:14; 1 Chr.28:9; 2 Chr.15:2). Saul built his first altar in 1 Samuel 14:35, but before this, he intruded into the priest?s office (1 Sam.13:1-15). Saul and Samuel were supposed to meet at Gilgal in seven days, but Samuel was a little late. Saul then intruded into the priest?s office and sacrificed a burnt offering. When he had finished, Samuel appeared and rebuked him for his folly. If men could only learn to obey God, then the need for a book proving you can lose your salvation would be completely unnecessary. If we could learn from the very first example (Gen.2-3), then we would fear God?s judgment like we?re supposed to (1 Pt.1:17) and live in complete obedience without fear of falling from grace (Gal.5:4). By looking into the passage of 1 Samuel 13:1-15 a little closer, we?ll find that in verse 12, Saul confesses to having forced himself in religion. Saul?s excuse of self-sufficiency, failure of others, justification of self, and seeming necessity are pleads of many who force themselves and their efforts in religion without being divinely called, purged, and prepared for work. Saul was clearly backslidden, cold to God, lukewarm in zeal, impatient in spirit, self-sufficient in mind, carnal in conduct, and fearful of the future. Revelation 3:15-16 says, “I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.†These words were given by Jesus in the year 96 A.D., but only echo the truths of the gospel from the beginning. God never changes (Mal.3:6; Heb.13:8; Jas.1:17). Anyone who becomes lukewarm is rejected of God.

 

[XTruth]

Verses 13-14 give a five-fold indictment of Saul by Samuel. His charges are as follows: he had done foolishly, he had not kept the commandments of the Lord, his kingdom won?t continue, Jehovah sought Him a man after His own heart, and He commanded him to be captain over His people. There are 124 curses God promises for disobedience along with the 21 blessings for obedience to His commandments from Deuteronomy 27:14-28:68. The same is true in Psalms 37 with a list of 25 blessings and 17 curses. Deuteronomy 28:63 says God will pluck off His people that disobey. With the contrast of the popular passage found in John 10:25-29, which says God will never pluck away His people who follow Him, we can see that obedience is the only way to have assurance of salvation with eternal security. Jesus says no one loves Him who won?t keep His commandments. So I ask you, in view of Samuel?s charges against Saul, was he saved from the judgment of God and accounted among the righteous? In 1 Samuel 14:37-46, the Lord didn?t answer Saul that day when he sought God?s counsel, but He did the next day. Saul continued to sin until the next time God refused to answer him (1 Sam.28:6; 1 Chr.10:13-14). But we all sin everyday, don?t we? That is the common cop out for fully submitting to God?s will (Rom.12:1-2). This is what God has to say about the sin of the righteous: “And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book (Ex.32:33).†“Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand (Eze.3:20).†Chapter 15 gives us the three-fold commission of Saul. He was to go and smite the Amalek, utterly destroy all they owned, and to spare them not. He was to slay men, women, children, infants, oxen, sheep, camels, and donkeys. This was in fulfillment of God?s purpose stated about 500 years prior. “And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven. And Moses built an altar, and called the name of it Jehovahnissi: For he said, Because the LORD hath sworn that the LORD will have war with Amalek from generation to generation (Ex.17:14-16).†But Saul was disobedient to the Word of God and failed in six things. He saved Agag alive and spared the best of his sheep, oxen, fatlings, lambs, and all else that was good. This was in direct disobedience to the command of God, which was to destroy utterly all that the Amalekites had. This command was so clear that there was no excuse for Saul or any of the people to violate it through covetousness, which was the breaking of not only the one to destroy all, but also the breaking of the tenth commandment (Ex.20:17; Lev.18:21; Dt.5:21). Saul then lied to Samuel, which as we know, no liars will inherit the kingdom of God (Rev.21:8; 22:15). Saul told Samuel, “I have performed the commandment of the Lord (vs.12-13).†When confronted by Samuel as to what was meant by sheep bleating and the cattle lowing if he had obeyed God?s commandment, Saul excused himself and blamed the people for sparing the best of the stock to use as sacrifices to the Lord (vs.14-15). The last time before this that Samuel rebuked Saul, it was for disobedience, at which time he was rejected as king. Samuel was who Saul had blamed at that time for not showing up on time as he had promised (1 Sam.13:1-15). Jesus said the meek would inherit the kingdom of God (Mat.5:3-12). Only a prideful liar would not accept responsibility for his failures. The fallen can always be redeemed as long as they are willing to humble themselves and repent from their sins.
Here again, Samuel announces the sin of Saul, but he again maintained that he had obeyed the voice of the Lord and that he did destroy all the Amalekites except the king, and the people were to blame for saving the best of the stock (vs.16-21). Once again, Samuel announced the rejection of Saul as king (vs.22-23). After all this, Saul acknowledged he had sinned; the reason being that he feared the people and obeyed their voice (vs.24). He begged for a pardon, asking Samuel to turn again to him so
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he could worship the Lord, but Samuel refused and still another time announced his rejection as king (vs.25-26). When Samuel turned to go away, Saul laid hold of his mantle and rent it (vs.27). Samuel then told Saul that the Lord rent his kingdom from him that day, giving it to his neighbor, and assured him that God would not change His mind in the matter (vs.28-29). Saul again repented, begging Samuel at least to honor him before the elders and permit him to worship the Lord once more. Samuel relented this much and permitted Saul to worship (vs.30-31), then commanded that Agag be killed before he left (vs.32-33). Samuel went home mourning for Saul and did not come back to him as long as he lived (vs.34-35). Is this the reaction from a prophet of God toward a man who is faithful and righteous in the eyes of God? But a prophet of God isn?t God, so what?s He have to say about Saul?s state of righteousness? Five times it was stated that God rejected Saul (1 Sam.15:23, 25-26, 28-29; 13:11-14; 16:1). Twice by Saul?s admission it was said that he had sinned and once he confessed that he transgressed the commandments of the Lord (1 Sam.15:24, 30). Saul had also confessed failure to obey Samuel?s words, which spoke for the Lord. 1 Samuel 16:14 clearly states that the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul. That seems to fly in the face of the holders of the eternal security doctrine. But not only was the Holy Spirit taken from him, but Jehovah Himself departed from Saul (1 Sam.18:12). The same had happened to Samson (Judg.16:20). In contrast with the Spirit of the Lord coming upon David from that day forward (1 Sam.16:13), the same Holy Spirit departed from Saul, and an evil spirit troubled him (vs.14). This is more evidence that proves the one who returns to sin may lose the Holy Spirit. Saul lost Him after having Him upon his life for many years (1 Sam.10:6, 9-13; 11:6; 13:1). David believed such was possible, for he prayed for God not to take the Spirit from him (Ps.51:11). Lucifer, fallen angels, demons, Adam and Eve, and many others are examples of sin causing one to lose what he has been given of the Lord. For more proof of that, review the following list of Divine things that can depart from man: God Himself (1 Sam.18:12; 28:15-16; Judg.16:20; Hos.9:12); the Holy Spirit (1 Sam.16:14; Ps.51:11); God?s glory (1 Sam.4:21-22; Eze.10:18); God?s Word (Dt.4:9; Pro.3:21; 4:21; Heb.2:1); God?s soul (Jer.6:8; Heb.10:38-39); and God?s mercy (2 Sam.7:14). Furthermore, for those who still hold to the interpretation from John 10:26-29 that no man, not even yourself, can depart from the hand of God, please take the time to review what the Word of God has to say about what man can depart from: God Himself (Jer.17:5, 13; Isa.59:13; Hos.1:2; Heb.3:12); God?s Word (Pro.5:7); following the Lord (2 Chr.34:33); the way of the Lord (Mal.2:8); and the faith (1 Tim.4:1). Lets jump back to 1 Samuel 16:14 and finish up. The last of the verse claims the evil spirit, now dwelling in Saul, was from the Lord. Lets examine this. The truth is that evil spirits come from God only in the sense of being permitted by Him to trouble those who are backslidden and persist in sin and rebellion (vs.14; 1 Ki.22:21-24; 2 Chr.18:20-23). The idea is that God does not protect such a person from spirits as He otherwise would if he yielded to Him and obeyed Him. God gave Saul over to an evil spirit as punishment for his sins and self-will. Naturally, when the Holy Spirit left him, he was open to an evil spirit of torment from Satan. It is written, “Thou shall not kill (Ex.20:13; Dt.5:7).†Genesis 9:5-6 gives the physical death penalty for murder and that was confirmed in Exodus 21:12. Again, the book of Numbers confirms this. A murderer will surely be put to death (Num.35:16-17, 30). Lets flip over to the new covenant to see if the same message is confirmed for us. Jesus said murderers have defiled themselves (Mat.15:19; Mk.7:21) and God promises to destroy all who defile themselves (1 Cor.3:16-17). Romans 1:29-32 claims the judgment of God is against all murderers. Galatians 5:19-21 declares that no murderer will inherit the kingdom of God, and Revelation 21:8 says all murderers will have their portion in the lake of fire. This is the point; Saul tried to murder David 21 times. Is God a liar or a respecter of persons that He would save the soul of one murderer, but damn another?
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Here are the Scripture references for proof of all 21 attempts to kill David. Note that not all of the following could fit into the category of an act of war: two attempts by a javelin (1 Sam.18:11); he schemed to have him killed by the Philistines (18:17-19); through Michael and the Philistines (18:20-30); trying to get Jonathan and all his own servants to kill him (19:1-7); third attempt to kill him with a javelin (19:8-10); by messengers to his house (19:11-14); again by messengers to his house (19:15-16); messengers to Ramah (19:17-20); again by messengers to Ramah (19:21); and again (19:21); by personally going to Ramah (19:22-24); planning to kill him the first day of the feast (20:24-26); second day of the feast (20:27-30); commanding that he be brought home to die (20:31-42); making war on Keilah to kill David (28:8-13); seeking him in the wilderness of Ziph (23:14-18); sending spies to find him (23:19-24); sending his own army after him (23:25-29); again going after David with 3,000 selected men, but falling into his hands and being spared (24:1-22); and still again going after David with a selected army, but falling into his hands a second time to be spared (26:1-25). Refer to 2 Samuel 11 and Psalms 51 for proof of David?s lost salvation. Jesus said in Matthew 5:21-22 that those who murder are liable to the judgment, but those also that just hate their brother are dealt with as murderers (1 Jn.2:9-11; 3:14-15). The hatred in Saul?s heart couldn?t be more visible than that of the story from 1 Samuel 22, where he killed 85 priests of the city of Nob over his hatred of David, as well as all the men, women, children, infants, and all livestock. Is this the action taken by a righteous man of God? Saul knew very well that God had departed from him, which is why he sought after a witch for counsel from a familiar spirit (28:7). Saul knew he was inquiring from a familiar spirit and not from God, for God had ceased to speak to him (28:3-6; 1 Chr.10:13-14). He knew this to be wicked, notice how he disguised himself so the witch wouldn?t know his identity and would feel free to inquire the familiar spirit (28:8-9). Saul knew the law of God and willfully disobeyed. Witches were to be put to death (Ex.22:18; Lev.19:31; 20:27; Dt.18:9-14). Witchcraft was as the sin of rebellion (1 Sam.15:23; 2 Ki.9:22; 2 Chr.33:6; Nah.3:4; Gal.5:20). Witches were to be killed because they turned people away from God by claiming to have hidden secrets by contact with God and the invisible world (Isa.8:19). Was this the righteousness required from the holy God of creation? Would not a person consulting a witch, to entertain this sin, be just as guilty and liable to the judgment of God? God always finds a man to execute His will. When one fails, such as Saul, He finds another to replace the ungodly one. After God gave Saul another heart and the Holy Spirit (10:9-13; 11:6), he sinned by intruding into the priest?s office and was rejected. The Holy Spirit was taken from him and an evil spirit came upon him instead (13:8-14; 15:11, 23-26; 16:14-23). Saul died in sin against God (1 Chr.10:13-14). Thus, he remained in God?s grace as long as he obeyed, and when he sinned, he incurred the death penalty like all beings through all ages, whether under the law or grace. Saul and all of Israel could have rejoiced for many years if he had not permitted the sin of pride, selfishness, and jealousy to dominate his life and cause him to break the laws of human decency and relationship with fellowmen. He began as a very promising king, but proved to be a most disappointing leader. It might be asked if he ever repented to God at the end and was redeemed once more. The answer is no. Saul committed suicide with his last breath, not restoration to the God he had abandoned (31:4). He was the temple of the Holy Spirit at one point, but he had defiled himself. In order for God not to be a liar (Tit.1:2; Heb.6:18), He must destroy all who are left defiled at the time of their death (1 Cor.3:16-17). Another translation from the Greek word used in the New Testament (1 Cor.3:16-17) for „defile,? is „destroy.? If suicide isn?t the ultimate means by which one would destroy him or herself, then I don?t know what is. What could be clearer? Saul was a partaker of the Holy Spirit and genuinely converted, born again, redeemed, and made a new creature at one time (1 Sam.10:6). Afterward, God had departed from him due to sin (1 Sam.18:12), just as He claims He does toward all who sin. No sinner?s name is found written in the book of life, even if it once was (Ex.32:33).

 

[theTruthful]

ill be honest, i didnt read all of your post. but i didnt have to, to know that you are in great error. you do not understand the difference between the old covenant and the new covenant. the old testament must be read in the light of the new testament.

men could not be born again until the work of Jesus was completed. nor could they receive the Holy Spirit. read john 7:39. there is a difference between the Holy Spirit which was UPON the men of the Old Testament, and the Holy Spirit which is WITHIN the men of the New Testament. Jesus said this new gift of the Holy Spirit, "Will never leave you nor forsake you."

even the greatest of men under the old covenant are accounted of as less than even the least of the kingdom of God. this is by God's grace thru Jesus Christ. read luke 7:28.

anyway, im not even refuting your point. but if you are trying to point to Saul of the old covenant as an example of losing the salvation that is by faith in Jesus Christ... well you are comparing apples and oranges.

keep studying.

 

[XTruth]

ill be honest, i didnt read all of your post. but i didnt have to, to know that you are in great error. you do not understand the difference between the old covenant and the new covenant. the old testament must be read in the light of the new testament.

men could not be born again until the work of Jesus was completed. nor could they receive the Holy Spirit. read john 7:39. there is a difference between the Holy Spirit which was UPON the men of the Old Testament, and the Holy Spirit which is WITHIN the men of the New Testament. Jesus said this new gift of the Holy Spirit, "Will never leave you nor forsake you."

even the greatest of men under the old covenant are accounted of as less than even the least of the kingdom of God. this is by God's grace thru Jesus Christ. read luke 7:28.

anyway, im not even refuting your point. but if you are trying to point to Saul of the old covenant as an example of losing the salvation that is by faith in Jesus Christ... well you are comparing apples and oranges.

keep studying.

This forum is full of people like you...its hilarious and sad. You are refuting the points i made, backed by tons of Scripture, yet wo even reading my post. You think people were saved by some other way in the Old Testament? They had faith in the Christ, just as we do. That had faith in the future coming like we have faith in the past first coming. There are 332 Messianic Scriptures. The wise men were looking for Him and John the Baptist too... just as an example. The Old Testament saints did have the Holy Spirit, just not the fullness of Him. They also had EVERY SINGLE gift that the New Testament saint has. Old Testament saints were born again... you have to be in order to be saved. You just don't understand what it means to be born again. Dont ever disregard all verses references and even confess not to have read the evidence of the Scripture and my entire post and then tell me to keep studying.

 

[Benoni]

BIG Difference between a David anointing and a Saul anointing.

1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come.

Example: NT:5178 a : Strong’s: tupikos (toop-ee-kos'); an adverb related to NT:5179; found only in 1 Cor 10:11: as a warning, by way of example, typologically (i.e. figuratively, as a prophetic type, a typological interpretation of Scripture)

Pro. 25: 2
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter


What you are missing with this long thesis is God is trying to show us something very spiritual about how he anoints His called out. The problem with men in the Church today is they blindly follow men (Saul Anointing) because they either belong to a certain belief system/ denomination for that is all they know. But there is a deeper anointing as demonstrated by David’s life. The OT conceals Christ, where the NT reveals Christ.

We are all supposed to follow Christ; true?

But what does that mean? Where is Christ? Christ is out there in the religious system; He is even in Babylon for:

Jeremiah 51:7 Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD's hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad. Christ is within is, the anointing is with in us like David not Saul.

The word Christ means anointed; so if you are against God’s anointing you are anti Christ. Most are not anti Christ but look to God thought the eyes of other men like a Saul. Their anointing is thought man, and reject the very Spirit of God with in them. They lost their first love.

What does the Bible say how God choices his anointed?

David was anointed by God long before he was king; David was a man who wrote thousands of psalms that are used to inspire so many awesome sermons as well as songs sung in churches all though out the world through many generations since they were written; and you say David was not converted? All you are doing is trying to bring David’s relationship with God down to your limited view of salvation.

The Ark of God was at David’s home, in a tent on His porch; this was not the normal tradition. What was normal was the High Priest once a year entered the Holy of Holies and no man or priest or King had such immanent excess to the presence of God as David.


David was king; He was God’s anointed King; not like Saul who was also anointed by God; but chosen by the people; like many ministries in the church (little c) realm today. David was one of those special people God called, anointed and was anointed as child. Today’s ministry is chosen by men. I have found men of God that I know anointed by the deepness of their understanding not because they have been voted in or out by some church committee. David walked for many years and knew He had an anointing; but he kept it to himself and understood that Saul was God’s anointed; that is until the appointed time. I think we are better off to wait for God to anoint God’s chosen vessel then to anoint our own. Also let us not forget Solomon who was also anointed of God; but because of his marring and turning his heart to false idols he became corrupt. Reminds me of all the different religions out there that man has married into; there is only one way; Christ with in.

 

[XTruth]

However, both were annoinyed by God... There is no small annointing from God. I never said David wasn't converted. What are you saying in a nutshell? Saul was saved at one point and then he wasn't, b/c of rebellion against God's authority, we simply call that sin. .... you said "Also let us not forget Solomon who was also anointed of God; but because of his marring and turning his heart to false idols he became corrupt. Reminds me of all the different religions out there that man has married into; there is only one way; Christ with in." ..... that is true but he did come back to the Lord as seen bt the end of Ecclesiastes. Salvation is the same for all man oand every being throughout the ages. God makes you righteous, but 1 simply act of rebellion from His ways and you are spiritually dead due to the death penalty.... the law of sin and death. Even now, Jesus takes away past sins only (Rom.3:25; 2 Pt.1:9), future sin still gives you over to the devil...by the laws of God, sin and death, and righteousness (Rom.6:16-23; 8:1-13; Gal.5:16-26; Jas.1:13-15; 1 Jn.1:5-6; 2:3-6; 3:1-10; Rev.2:5, 16; 21:7-8; 22:14).

 

[jasoncran]

while i lean more toward osas. Please read Hebrew 6 then and if thats the case then when a person loses it, theres no going back. So if you knowingly sin then that chapter may apply to you then.

How many of us lie knowingly when me make a mistake at work? everheard cya?

that's deliberate sin.

 

[XTruth]

1. Christians can backslide, tearing down the foundation of repentance that is already laid. Should they ever again be admitted into Christ, they will have to build again the foundation of repentance and do their first works again (Heb. 6:1-2; 2:1-4; Rev. 2:5).
2. Christians can fully apostatize from Christ, completely rejecting Him and His atoning work, so that it is impossible to renew them again to repentance (Heb. 6:4-9; 10:26-29; 2Pet. 2:20-22).

If you apostize, then you reject Christ as the only way, or even the way at all. There is no more repentance and/or salvation for them since He is the only way (Jn.14:6; Acts 4:12). If you sin, you better repent (Eze.18:24-32; Rom.6:16-23; 8:1-13; Gal.5:16-26; 1 Cor.6:9-10; Col.3:5-10; Eph.5:3-7; Jas.1:13-15; 1 Jn.1:5-9; 2:1-6; 3:1-10; Rev.2:5, 16).... For no liar will inherit the kingdom of God (Rev.21:8, 27; 22:14-15)...How you die is how you remain (Rev.22:11)... better repent! and live righteous (Gal6:7-8)

 

[jasoncran]

uh now if you can think that you can Lose your salvation that how does this say you can get it back? Hebrews 6:4 For It is impossible...

That means once the salvation lost now way to get it back as the person tasted it.I think you are confusing that the person who isnt saved and claims to be and sits in church but never gets saved, with someone who is saved but is being rebellious.

If you can honeslty deny the Lord openly and fullheartedly then you arent saved. I was backslidden yet i couldnt bring my self to that.

 

[Benoni]

We are not under the law we are under grace.

Should Jesus die again?

Is His sacrifice not good enough?

All sin was nailed to the cross, Jesus reversed the curse.

What is greater the sin of Adam or the blood of Jesus?


"And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat." [Hebrews 9:5].

"Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forebearance of God." [Romans 3:25].

"And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." [1 John 2:2].

However, both were annoinyed by God... There is no small annointing from God. I never said David wasn't converted. What are you saying in a nutshell? Saul was saved at one point and then he wasn't, b/c of rebellion against God's authority, we simply call that sin. .... you said "Also let us not forget Solomon who was also anointed of God; but because of his marring and turning his heart to false idols he became corrupt. Reminds me of all the different religions out there that man has married into; there is only one way; Christ with in." ..... that is true but he did come back to the Lord as seen bt the end of Ecclesiastes. Salvation is the same for all man oand every being throughout the ages. God makes you righteous, but 1 simply act of rebellion from His ways and you are spiritually dead due to the death penalty.... the law of sin and death. Even now, Jesus takes away past sins only (Rom.3:25; 2 Pt.1:9), future sin still gives you over to the devil...by the laws of God, sin and death, and righteousness (Rom.6:16-23; 8:1-13; Gal.5:16-26; Jas.1:13-15; 1 Jn.1:5-6; 2:3-6; 3:1-10; Rev.2:5, 16; 21:7-8; 22:14).

 

[Benoni]

Yes men backslide, yes men fall away. But it is not us it is Christ who quickens us. It is not our salvation to lose.


Hebrews 13:5
Let your character or moral disposition be free from love of money [including greed, avarice, lust, and craving for earthly possessions] and be satisfied with your present [circumstances and with what you have]; for He [God] Himself has said, I will not in any way fail you nor give you up nor leave you without support. [I will] not, [I will] not, [I will] not in any degree leave you helpless nor forsake nor let [you] down ( relax My hold on you)! [ Assuredly not!]

 

[theTruthful]

This forum is full of people like you...its hilarious and sad. You are refuting the points i made, backed by tons of Scripture, yet wo even reading my post. You think people were saved by some other way in the Old Testament? They had faith in the Christ, just as we do. That had faith in the future coming like we have faith in the past first coming. There are 332 Messianic Scriptures. The wise men were looking for Him and John the Baptist too... just as an example. The Old Testament saints did have the Holy Spirit, just not the fullness of Him. They also had EVERY SINGLE gift that the New Testament saint has. Old Testament saints were born again... you have to be in order to be saved. You just don't understand what it means to be born again. Dont ever disregard all verses references and even confess not to have read the evidence of the Scripture and my entire post and then tell me to keep studying.

there is so much error in the few paragraphs i have read, that i dont need to read the rest. you seem more interested in tearing down the faith of many, rather than building them up. to tell people that they are saved by grace and works rather than grace and faith is to spit in the face of everything Jesus did for us.

we do good works because we have been reborn in Christ as new creations. if i could have been a new creation by adhering to the law, then i would not need Jesus. im telling you once more... you make a great error in trying to explain New Covenant promises with Old Covenant laws. The Old Covenant was a shadow of things to come, yes. but the law of the spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. what does that mean? it means i dont have to die for my sins, because i believe in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. and through my faith in his perfect work, i am saved. saul had a law to keep and saul failed miserably. but so have we. Romans 3:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Galatians 3:

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:


Paul warned us again and again not to entangle ourselves again in the law. why? because if you want to uphold the law, then you owe God a huge debt. you cant even begin to fulfill it. if you are telling people that they need to fulfill it through their works, then you are teaching them how to not have faith in Christ. you are corrupting the gospel, twisting scriptures to your own destruction. if because of your preaching one loses faith, then i pray that you will repent before the day you stand in front of the judgment seat of Christ.

 

[LaCrum]

Paul warned us again and again not to entangle ourselves again in the law. why? because if you want to uphold the law, then you owe God a huge debt. you cant even begin to fulfill it. if you are telling people that they need to fulfill it through their works, then you are teaching them how to not have faith in Christ. you are corrupting the gospel, twisting scriptures to your own destruction. if because of your preaching one loses faith, then i pray that you will repent before the day you stand in front of the judgment seat of Christ.

That’s some good scripture you provided. I also was reading Romans the other night where Paul talks about this rather extensively in relation to the New Covenant.

Romans 3:21-31

21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

 

[theTruthful]

Paul warned us again and again not to entangle ourselves again in the law. why? because if you want to uphold the law, then you owe God a huge debt. you cant even begin to fulfill it. if you are telling people that they need to fulfill it through their works, then you are teaching them how to not have faith in Christ. you are corrupting the gospel, twisting scriptures to your own destruction. if because of your preaching one loses faith, then i pray that you will repent before the day you stand in front of the judgment seat of Christ.

That’s some good scripture you provided. I also was reading Romans the other night where Paul talks about this rather extensively in relation to the New Covenant.

Romans 3:21-31

21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

thank you... i think your passage there definitely helps shed some further light on God's righteousness thru faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[glorydaz]

We are under a New Covenant, and the Holy Spirit now abides with the believer forever.
Yet the OT saints were saved by faith as we are. They had to wait to appropriate the promise until Christ had been raised from the dead. Abraham and David both foresaw that day and rejoiced. They weren't filled with the Comforter in the same way we are...thus David killed Uriah and was still said to be a man after God's own heart. None of them were perfect...they weren't filled with the righteousness of Christ.

But as to Saul...There is always debate about whether Saul was saved...whether he lost his salvation if he was saved. I believe he was saved, but forfeited his life as in the verse below. His body was destroyed, but his soul was saved.

According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your's; Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's; And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

Samuel was conjured up...much to the dismay of the witch. He told Saul that the kingdom had been taken away and he and his sons would be killed. He goes on to say, "Tomorrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me." This was a prophetic utterance from Samuel.

10And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing. 11Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. 12And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. 13And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. 14And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. 15And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. 16Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy? 17And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David: 18Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day. 19Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

Here again...Jonathan and Saul were not divided at death.

The beauty of Israel is slain upon thy high places: how are the mighty fallen! Tell it not in Gath, publish it not in the streets of Askelon; lest the daughters of the Philistines rejoice, lest the daughters of the uncircumcised triumph. Ye mountains of Gilboa, let there be no dew, neither let there be rain, upon you, nor fields of offerings: for there the shield of the mighty is vilely cast away, the shield of Saul, as though he had not been anointed with oil. From the blood of the slain, from the fat of the mighty, the bow of Jonathan turned not back, and the sword of Saul returned not empty. Saul and Jonathan were lovely and pleasant in their lives, and in their death they were not divided: they were swifter than eagles, they were stronger than lions.

 

[jasoncran]

glory days, you believe that the saints can be conjured up and talk to the dead even in this day.

What if the Lord told that spirit what to say and it wasnt samuel, but a familiar spirit.

 

[glorydaz]

glory days, you believe that the saints can be conjured up and talk to the dead even in this day.

What if the Lord told that spirit what to say and it wasnt samuel, but a familiar spirit.

I don't think a lot of things happen in this day that did happen in the past. But, no, I don't think the Lord would tell a familiar spirit to lie to Saul. I think the woman was as surprised as she could be. Samuel seemed to be speaking the truth. He told Saul God was removing the kingdom from him because of his disobedience. Samuel did not seem to be happy with Saul at all, but he did tell him he and Jonathan would be with him tomorrow. There is no doubt about Jonathan's salvation. And, David is said to be a man after God's own heart and we see what his reaction was to Saul's death.

So I stood upon him, and slew him, because I was sure that he could not live after that he was fallen: and I took the crown that was upon his head, and the bracelet that was on his arm, and have brought them hither unto my lord. Then David took hold on his clothes, and rent them; and likewise all the men that were with him: And they mourned, and wept, and fasted until even, for Saul, and for Jonathan his son, and for the people of the LORD, and for the house of Israel; because they were fallen by the sword. And David said unto the young man that told him, Whence art thou? And he answered, I am the son of a stranger, an Amalekite. And David said unto him, How wast thou not afraid to stretch forth thine hand to destroy the LORD's anointed? And David called one of the young men, and said, Go near, and fall upon him. And he smote him that he died. And David said unto him, Thy blood be upon thy head; for thy mouth hath testified against thee, saying, I have slain the LORD's anointed. And David lamented with this lamentation over Saul and over Jonathan his son:

 

[JohnEboy1983]

Saul was not a man after Gods own heart. Saul murdered innocent people in his anger and did not show mercy, Saul was disobedient to what God had commanded and most of all, Saul made excuses for his actions instead of confessing his wrongs. David, was a man after God's own heart putting much faith and trust in God. David, unlike Saul had shown mercy; Remember when he was set out to destroy Nabal? David was obedient and faithful to God and also unlike Saul, if David had done wrong he confessed it instead of making excuses for it as in the situation where he committed adultery with Bathsheba. When confronted by Nathan the prophet, David confessed immediately. So although David had messed up like many of us today and probably far more then we have, he had shown humility, mercy, obedience, faith, love and repentence, something Saul really had not done. Samuel warned the Israelites what Saul their King would be like but they refused and said Give us a King! So God knew from the beginning what Saul was going to be like as King.

 

[glorydaz]

Saul was not a man after Gods own heart. Saul murdered innocent people in his anger and did not show mercy, Saul was disobedient to what God had commanded and most of all, Saul made excuses for his actions instead of confessing his wrongs. David, was a man after God's own heart putting much faith and trust in God. David, unlike Saul had shown mercy; Remember when he was set out to destroy Nabal? David was obedient and faithful to God and also unlike Saul, if David had done wrong he confessed it instead of making excuses for it as in the situation where he committed adultery with Bathsheba. When confronted by Nathan the prophet, David confessed immediately. So although David had messed up like many of us today and probably far more then we have, he had shown humility, mercy, obedience, faith, love and repentence, something Saul really had not done. Samuel warned the Israelites what Saul their King would be like but they refused and said Give us a King! So God knew from the beginning what Saul was going to be like as King.

I agree Saul was far from perfect, but David wasn't just guilty of committing adultery with Bathsheba, he killed her husband.

David aside, Saul had his moments. He confessed he'd sinned.

And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned: for I have transgressed the commandment of the LORD, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice.

Then he said, I have sinned: yet honour me now, I pray thee, before the elders of my people, and before Israel, and turn again with me, that I may worship the LORD thy God. So Samuel turned again after Saul; and Saul worshipped the LORD.

His heart was touched and he wept...

16And it came to pass, when David had made an end of speaking these words unto Saul, that Saul said, Is this thy voice, my son David? And Saul lifted up his voice, and wept. 17And he said to David, Thou art more righteous than I: for thou hast rewarded me good, whereas I have rewarded thee evil. 18And thou hast shewed this day how that thou hast dealt well with me: forasmuch as when the LORD had delivered me into thine hand, thou killedst me not. 19For if a man find his enemy, will he let him go well away? 20And now, behold, I know well that thou shalt surely be king, and that the kingdom of Israel shall be established in thine hand.

Then said Saul, I have sinned: return, my son David: for I will no more do thee harm, because my soul was precious in thine eyes this day: behold, I have played the fool, and have erred exceedingly.