Save yourself from the Angel of Death. Eat the Communion.

[stovebolts]

Good post John, I appreciate your thoughts.

BTW, how often does your church offer communion?

 

[Lewis]

My church does it every first of the month, but you can have communion as often as you want, or feel that you are being led to do it by your spirit.

 

[stovebolts]

That's great Lewis.

I know that Scripture says to do it whenever you come together, and our church comes together both Sunday and Wed, yet we only offer it on Sun..

Now I know that Acts gives us an example of them doing it on the first day of the week, so by example, don't you think we should at least follow in their footsteps?

BTW, there is no right or wrong answer here, I'm just curious

Jeff

 

[John the Baptist]

That's great Lewis.

I know that Scripture says to do it whenever you come together, and our church comes together both Sunday and Wed, yet we only offer it on Sun..

Now I know that Acts gives us an example of them doing it on the first day of the week, so by example, don't you think we should at least follow in their footsteps?

**
What verses of Acts are you giving for that example??
**

BTW, there is no right or wrong answer here, I'm just curious

Jeff

 

[stovebolts]

Hello John,
I'm speaking of Acts 20:7

Not sure how you view this passage, but I appreciate what Coffman has to say.

http://www.studylight.org/com/bcc/view. ... hapter=020

Verse 7
And upon the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul discoursed with them, intending to depart on the morrow; and prolonged his speech until midnight.

First day of the week when the disciples came together to break bread ...
This emphatically states the purpose of Christian assemblies on Sundays throughout history, that purpose being for the observance of the Lord's supper. As Lange said, "Luke's language here plainly indicates that this day (Sunday) was precisely one on which assemblies for religious services were customarily held." F7 Harrison complained that "We are not told when or how the practice of Sunday worship arose in the church"; F8 but one does not need to seek any later than the day of the resurrection of our Lord for the beginning of it. On successive Sundays, Jesus appeared to the apostles on the day he arose from the grave (John 20:19), Thomas being absent; and again on the following Sunday (Thomas present) (John 20:26) he appeared to them again. There can be little doubt that Sunday services of Christians began with those two appearances of our Lord in their assemblies on successive Sundays.

Pliny's letter to the Emperor Trajan, written in the shadow of the apostolic age (112 A.D.), declared of the Christians that:



It was their habit on a fixed day to assemble before daylight and sing ... After this was done, their custom was to depart and meet again to take food, but ordinary and harmless food. F9
It is easy in Pliny's report to observe a reference to the Lord's supper; and the significance of "on a fixed day" is therefore of the very greatest magnitude. The Christians, from earliest times, had the habit of meeting for the Lord's supper on "a fixed day," and Acts 20:7 identifies that day as "the first day of the week," Sunday.

To break bread ...
as Dummelow noted, means "to celebrate the Lord's supper." F10 In fact, it would be impossible to understand this as a reference to anything else.

Paul discoursed unto them ...
Even the address of so distinguished an apostle as Paul took second billing on that occasion, the primary purpose having been to observe the Lord's supper; that is why no ordinary meal can be understood of this "breaking bread."

Continued his speech until midnight ...
Perhaps it should be noted as Lange said, that "The example of Paul affords no excuse for sermons that are of immoderate length!" F11

 

[Vic C.]

If being led by example, how about we follow the one in the Gospels and celebrate at the beginning of Pesach?

 

[stovebolts]

If being led by example, how about we follow the one in the Gospels and celebrate at the beginning of Pesach?

Hey Vic,
I'm not up on my Orthodox Judaism with all their traditions, but I seem to recall that the Lord's supper was held as part of the tradition your speaking of right?

I see the difference being that Jesus himself instituted this particulare "memorial" [stepping on egg shells] and hence, says in 1 Corinthians 11:25, "New Covenant"

The writer of Hebrews describes the changing of the laws, with the changing of the priests. Christ is the our High Priest and hence, that is why the curtain in the temple to the holy of holies was torn making the holy of holies available to all. Check out Hebrews 8 and 9... or the whole book for that fact. Actually, I'm just beginning to understand it myself.

If we study the tabernacle (the copy of things given to Moses [Ex 25 +]), we see that blood was sprinkled upon the atonement cover [mercy seat] as not only a seal, but for purification. Inside the arc, was the testament, which consisted of Aaron's rod that budded, the golden jar of manna and Mose's tablets.

So, what do you think Vic? I'd be interested in hearing what you have to say.

 

[John the Baptist]

Hello John,
I'm speaking of Acts 20:7

Not sure how you view this passage, but I appreciate what Coffman has to say.

http://www.studylight.org/com/bcc/view. ... hapter=020

Verse 7
And upon the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul discoursed with them, intending to depart on the morrow; and prolonged his speech until midnight.

First day of the week when the disciples came together to break bread ...
This emphatically states the purpose of Christian assemblies on Sundays throughout history, that purpose being for the observance of the Lord's supper. As Lange said, "Luke's language here plainly indicates that this day (Sunday) was precisely one on which assemblies for religious services were customarily held." F7 Harrison complained that "We are not told when or how the practice of Sunday worship arose in the church"; F8 but one does not need to seek any later than the day of the resurrection of our Lord for the beginning of it. On successive Sundays, Jesus appeared to the apostles on the day he arose from the grave (John 20:19), Thomas being absent; and again on the following Sunday (Thomas present) (John 20:26) he appeared to them again. There can be little doubt that Sunday services of Christians began with those two appearances of our Lord in their assemblies on successive Sundays.

Pliny's letter to the Emperor Trajan, written in the shadow of the apostolic age (112 A.D.), declared of the Christians that:



It was their habit on a fixed day to assemble before daylight and sing ... After this was done, their custom was to depart and meet again to take food, but ordinary and harmless food. F9
It is easy in Pliny's report to observe a reference to the Lord's supper; and the significance of "on a fixed day" is therefore of the very greatest magnitude. The Christians, from earliest times, had the habit of meeting for the Lord's supper on "a fixed day," and Acts 20:7 identifies that day as "the first day of the week," Sunday.

To break bread ...
as Dummelow noted, means "to celebrate the Lord's supper." F10 In fact, it would be impossible to understand this as a reference to anything else.

Paul discoursed unto them ...
Even the address of so distinguished an apostle as Paul took second billing on that occasion, the primary purpose having been to observe the Lord's supper; that is why no ordinary meal can be understood of this "breaking bread."

Continued his speech until midnight ...
Perhaps it should be noted as Lange said, that "The example of Paul affords no excuse for sermons that are of immoderate length!" F11

______
John here: I will get back with this later. Just wondering in the meantime if you might study Christ's Word alone, (:wink on when the days of creation week started & ended. Also the account from all four of what man calls Gospels as to the preparation day, Sabbath & for when Christ was resurrected?

As for my preference, I like John Inspiration most because he has given me much more of his descriptive penmanship. Revelation & all. And that leaves me with the chapter of John 19's latter verses & chapter 20 that is full of Christ's last day & after His resurrection.

Breaking of Bread? Well I have got to run for now.

 

[stovebolts]

Hey John,
Yes, I do like to study on Christ's words, but it never hurts to understand a little history and get feed back on other peoples thoughts and studies as well. I figure that you can come up with things that I haven't, and vice versa. If done in the spirit of Christ, I think that we can learn much from each other and edify each other in our spiritual walk with Christ. Just some more of my rambeling thoughts :wink:

Anyway,
I appreciate how you equate this with the days of creation. Especially the first day...

As far as John 19 and 20, I agree 100% and there is much that could be said. In regard to verses John 20:20-29, wouldn't it be grand is more were to see Jesus... dare I say in the communion?

As far as 'Breaking of Bread', I am reminded how without a broken bone, Christ's body was broken for us, by us. [us being mankind]

In addition, it was customary [I believe] that to sup with another was an intimate act.

 

[Vic C.]

Hey Vic,
I'm not up on my Orthodox Judaism with all their traditions, but I seem to recall that the Lord's supper was held as part of the tradition your speaking of right?

I don't think I would call it all tradition. Some of it was commanded. Anyway, what I was talking about is the first day of the feast of unleavened bread. See Matthew 26. Most likely this day was midweek.This is where Jesus instituted what we call The Lord's Supper, The Last Supper, Communion, etc.

I think your Coffman doesn't quite understand the Jewish calendar.

Verse 7
And upon the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul discoursed with them, intending to depart on the morrow; and prolonged his speech until midnight.

This in no way inplies that the day spoken about is what we call Sunday. The first day of the week would have begun at sunset on the day we call Saturday. The same sunset that ends the sabbath. The fact that the verse tells us Paul spoke until midnight indicates he spoke up until midnight on the very same Saturday I mentioned above. So in light of this, no bread was broken at all on "Sunday".

 

[stovebolts]

Well Vic, as I stated, I don’t fully understand the Orthodox Traditions. True, some of it was commanded by God to Moses for the Jews. But as a whole expression, it is mired in tradition. I believe Paul speaks in part to some of this in Romans in relation to foods when the Jews were trying to get the gentiles to sustain from particular foods. I’m assuming you know that their traditions to uphold the law included sustaianing from all grain, or grain like products during their festival. [or somehing like that right?]

As far as when it was instituted bears no relation to what is spoken in Acts 20:7 and I see no relation to your statement that Coffman doesn’t understand his Jewish calendar?? Here we are talking about two separate events. One event occurred before Jesus was crucified [and that day I believe holds a major significance] and the other event [which Coffman is referring] was well after Christ’s resurrection and hold little significance other than the fact that they came together and broke bread.

As far as if Acts 20:7 is relating to Sunday or not really bears no meaning for Christ’s words were clear in that “As often as youâ€Â. Now, in Acts 20:7, the texts clearly state “First day of the weekâ€Â. Does that mean Sunday? Does it really matter? The reason I present this is simple, Christ said, in 1 Corinthians 11:26, For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come

So help me understand Vic, what does this have to do with Sunday being the first day of the week? More importantly, if it does hold significance, what day of the week is the first day of the week in the jewish calenadar and how does that relate to our days of the week? In other words, what day is sunday in the jewish calendar? Would it be tuesday? I really don't know.

 

[Vic C.]

It matters insomuch as making the statement that if Paul "broke bread" on a Sunday, then we should also. My point was to stress that this is incorrect because it wasn't Sunday. If we are to correctly insert our calendar into the Jewish calendar, the day he broke bread was Saturday evening, before midnight. Sitll the "first day" of the week... for them. I thought that was clear on my part, but I might be assuming the way they, the Jews, labeled their days and times of the day was common knowledge.

Get to know the calendar Jesus and others abided by in His time. It helps put many things into perspective concerning culture and context.

This is a great site for just that:

http://www.jewfaq.org/calendar.htm

 

[Dave...]

Baptism and Communion are not acts apart from Christ. They cannot be separated from Him.

Can water baptism and communion be seperated from our justification?

If I have a true authentic faith in Jesus Christ and His work on the cross, but have never taken communion, and never been water baptised, am I saved?

This is the problem, Catholics always play down their statements as if they are non offensive to scripture, but every time we dig a little deeper we find out that many in the Catholic church do not have that same simplistic, non offensive understanding of these Catholic doctrines. How does this continue to happen? Hmmm!

Dave

 

[stovebolts]

Hi Dave,
No, I'm not Catholic, but you ask some very good questions. I cannot answer your questions as a Catholic, but when we look at baptism and communion, these are not works, yet they are tied at the hip.

Can water baptism and communion be seperated from our justification?

If I have a true authentic faith in Jesus Christ and His work on the cross, but have never taken communion, and never been water baptised, am I saved?

If you think that being dunked in a tank of water is water baptism, then you've missed the mark. Likewise, if you think eating a cracker and drinking some juice or wine is communion, then you again miss the significance and beauty in the privledge of both.

I dont' want to drag water baptism into all this, and I really hope that it doesn't pull in that direction, but water baptism is a faith based response and thus, you should do so in faith and obedience if you have not for their are many benifits including the forgivness of sins and the gift of the holy spirit. (Acts 2:38) If you havn't been baptised, why not?

Vic,
I see where your coming from as far as the Sunday thing. Not so sure that I agree with you, but I'll check it out. I think that your baptist right, but are you now suggesting that we gather on Saturday :wink: poke poke :D

I'll get back with you on that. I'm assuming your talking about John 20:19 right?

Till tomorrow, Cheers

 

[Vic C.]

Vic,
I see where your coming from as far as the Sunday thing. Not so sure that I agree with you, but I'll check it out. I think that your baptist right, but are you now suggesting that we gather on Saturday.

I'll get back with you on that. I'm assuming your talking about John 20:19 right?

Till tomorrow, Cheers

Nope, never suggested that. All I'm trying to do is show people using Acts 20:7 as prooftext and as a model to "do" the Lord's Supper on a Sunday is wrong. Personally, we should be able to "do" Lord's supper seven days a week, providing all is right in our heart and with God.

I'm not Baptist, I'm a Christian that happens to attend a S. Baptist church. ;)

Yes, John 20:19 is another example that evening of "their" first day is our Saturday, not Sunday. Seeing days and nights as they 'saw' them 2,000 years ago is a bit confusing at first... like going from U.S. system of measuring to the metric system. Once you understand how they 'labeled' days, it really enhances the understanding of many things (events) in the NT.

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

catholics have the Lord's Supper seven days a week. if they dont recieve it, its been offered nonetheless.

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

16: The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?
1 Cor. 10:16

Why dont you recieve? Obviously there is something spiritual about it. Why are we saved? The bible makes many references about us being alive in Christ and dead if we are seperate from him. If communion is a participation in the body of christ, and you are unwilling to participate, then I would wonder if you are saved. I would also wonder why you refuse to participate in whatever form, whether it be every day at a Catholic Mass, or every third sunday of the month as at another Church. When Jesus commands, he commands, not suggests. "Do this in remembrance of me as often as you meet" is a declarative sentence... and it doesnt appear to be a suggestion.

My question, why do you fight it?

And my answers to your questions

Can water baptism and communion be seperated from our justification?

I would say no. The scriptures dont seem to support it.

 

[CatholicXian]

Wow this thread has really taken off in the day or two I've been away. Several good points have been made.

I need to eat dinner with my family, but I just wanted to respond quickly to Dave.

Yes, Baptism and Communion are required for salvation. (please don't cut off my post at that sentence). HOWEVER, Catholic doctrine also holds that while God indeed instituted these Sacraments, He Himself is not bound, nor limited by them. Can God save a person apart from these Sacraments? Of course, the grace of God extends further than my imagination could even conceive. We always have to look at the thief on the cross. I also would tend to say that the thief, and any other person saved apart from the Sacraments would tend to be the exception, rather than the rule. It is my love for Christ that compels me to embrace baptism and Communion... and indeed it is my love for Christ that compels me to embrace the Catholic Church.

(edited for spelling : )

 

[John the Baptist]

Hey Vic,
I'm not up on my Orthodox Judaism with all their traditions, but I seem to recall that the Lord's supper was held as part of the tradition your speaking of right?

I don't think I would call it all tradition. Some of it was commanded. Anyway, what I was talking about is the first day of the feast of unleavened bread. See Matthew 26. Most likely this day was midweek.This is where Jesus instituted what we call The Lord's Supper, The Last Supper, Communion, etc.

I think your Coffman doesn't quite understand the Jewish calendar.

[quote:9b869]Verse 7
And upon the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul discoursed with them, intending to depart on the morrow; and prolonged his speech until midnight.

This in no way inplies that the day spoken about is what we call Sunday. The first day of the week would have begun at sunset on the day we call Saturday. The same sunset that ends the sabbath. The fact that the verse tells us Paul spoke until midnight indicates he spoke up until midnight on the very same Saturday I mentioned above. So in light of this, no bread was broken at all on "Sunday".[/quote:9b869]

**
Thanks Vic! :wink:
Romans 8:28 tells us all things work together for good to them that love God..', right Bolts?

Anyway, I had a two hour dental appointment is why I shied away, and the bill was $1,750.00 dollars for 3 crowns. When we went to pay the bill the Dentist charged me $650.00. Quite a guy, huh?

But it looks like it was addressed? But breaking bread does not always mean anything other than eating a daily meal either.

---John

 

[CatholicXian]

Dave (and others),

Something else I think that needs to be distinguished/clarified is the Catholic understanding of the Sacraments in addition to what I mentioned previously.

In Catholic thought, the Sacraments are not dependent upon us, but upon God. God's grace is poured out simply because He said He would. Does that mean everyone embraces that grace poured out for them? No. We must receptive and open to the grace of God.

You may correct me if I'm wrong, but in my discussions with non-Catholic friends and pastors, the more common view of the Sacraments is that they are more dependent upon the disposition of the person and are more ceramonial/symbolic (which, symbolic isn't a bad thing, Sacraments are also symbolic in Catholic understanding.. but they contain a far broader meaning and reality in Catholic understanding as well).


And Lewis, while your site was meant in good intentions, I've seen it several times by other well meaning non-Catholic friends of mine. The Eucharist, Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament (placing the Eucharist in a monstrance) is not a pagan practice. Numerous ancient legends foretell of a god dying and rising again but we don't see, nor would we dare say the Sacrifice of Christ was only a pagan imitation. Christ, and by extention Christianity, is a singular TRUTH that trumps and completely blows away any imitation. As I mentioned previously, Christ is not "contained" and "limited" in the Eucharist, we are not confining God to a mere piece of bread-- this is impossible. It is no longer bread, but by the grace and power of God it becomes the most Holy Body and Blood of Jesus Christ... Pope Benedict XVI describes it most beautifully in his homily on the Feast of Corpus Christi (the Body and Blood of the Lord): "It is not possible to "eat" the Risen One, present under the sign of bread, as if it were a simple piece of bread. To eat this Bread is to communicate, to enter into communion with the person of the living Lord. This communion, this act of "eating", is truly an encounter between two persons, it is allowing our lives to be penetrated by the life of the One who is the Lord, of the One who is my Creator and Redeemer."


Oh, and lastly, I'm a girl.