Saved by Grace not of works !

[Prentis]

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,[b] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

The end of some who are partakers of the holy spirit is to be rejected? Some that have tasted of the powers of the age to come will be cursed?

Well yes, unless you want to directly deny the scriptures... ;)

 

[glorydaz]

Man is saved by obedience to the gospel. Otherwise hearing the gospel alone would save... But it is not the hearers, but the doers who are saved.

Otherwise, the ground on which the seeds falls that doesn't bear fruit is 'saved' too!

No one is a "doer of the law" except Jesus Christ. We are saved by faith in Him.
His work on the cross...obedience unto death took away our sins.
When we believe in His work, and partake of His resurrection by being born again, we enter into eternal life.

The fruit is evidence that one has been born of God.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,[b] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

The end of some who are partakers of the holy spirit is to be rejected? Some that have tasted of the powers of the age to come will be cursed?

Well yes, unless you want to directly deny the scriptures... ;)

If you knew the truth, you would KNOW that once a person is "sealed" by the Holy Spirit they are "guaranteed" eternal life with God...You obviously have "intellectual" knowledge, but that same knowledge hasn't led you to the truth yet. And maybe you won't find it because you reject the truths of Scripture...Have you come to Christ in faith and been "born again Spiritually???" And can you tell us what that means and how you got to be "born again?"

 

[Grubal Muruch]

No one is a "doer of the law" except Jesus Christ. We are saved by faith in Him.
His work on the cross...obedience unto death took away our sins.
When we believe in His work, and partake of His resurrection by being born again, we enter into eternal life.

The fruit is evidence that one has been born of God.

Now that is TRUTH Amen...

 

[WIP]

It would seem that this discussion has gone around full circle multiple times and has grown to a point where it is no longer about engaging in open dialogue or discussion but rather debating for the sake of winning points. I will be checking this thread later today and considering whether it should be locked. Maybe a change in direction will be considered by those participating?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

It would seem that this discussion has gone around full circle multiple times and has grown to a point where it is no longer about engaging in open dialogue or discussion but rather debating for the sake of winning points. I will be checking this thread later today and considering whether it should be locked. Maybe a change in direction will be considered by those participating?

I vote for "locking it"

 

[Prentis]

If you knew the truth, you would KNOW that once a person is "sealed" by the Holy Spirit they are "guaranteed" eternal life with God...You obviously have "intellectual" knowledge, but that same knowledge hasn't led you to the truth yet. And maybe you won't find it because you reject the truths of Scripture...Have you come to Christ in faith and been "born again Spiritually???" And can you tell us what that means and how you got to be "born again?"

Well, it seems you don't know the truth of Hebrews 6... Maybe you don't know God, because he hasn't led you into all truth! :help

Those kind of statements are silly, and your ignoring of posted scriptures only reveals your inability to explain it.

You are led by doctrines of men... And led to 'all truth' of those doctrines, because you don't believe what the word says even when it is put right before you. But you reply with whatever doctrine you have been taught.

 

[Prentis]

No one is a "doer of the law" except Jesus Christ. We are saved by faith in Him.
His work on the cross...obedience unto death took away our sins.
When we believe in His work, and partake of His resurrection by being born again, we enter into eternal life.

The fruit is evidence that one has been born of God.

Do you know so little of the scriptures that you do not know that the washing away by the blood is but the beginning of our race?


5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[Vic C.]

People! Free asked we address the issues, not insult each other; I add we keep on topic or I will have to lock it down. All off topic posts have been deleted.

Thanks.

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4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,[b] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

The end of some who are partakers of the holy spirit is to be rejected? Some that have tasted of the powers of the age to come will be cursed?

Well yes, unless you want to directly deny the scriptures... ;)

There is denying scripture and there is misinterpreting and misapplying scripture.

I addressed this very passage in a different thread a few months ago.

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=37333&p=560895&viewfull=1#post560895

The book of Hebrews is addressing the Jewish believers of the first century and any other interpretation and/or practical application of that passage (or any other in the Bible) should not exclude the intended context.

Why make the Gospel more than God intended? Remember, if it weren't for the Grace of God, all would be relegated to a life and afterlife apart from Him. :o

Adding to the perfect sacrifice of the Lord, diminishes that sacrifice.

A rather humbling concept, heh? ;)

Above all.

 

[Prentis]

We do not add to the sacrifice.

But we add to our faith, as it says in 2nd Peter! :yes

The sacrifice gives us a new beginning a fresh start... To which we must respond accordingly!

It also makes available to us a new nature. But what good is that if we do not decide to walk by it?

 

[Prentis]

When the Word says none will be snatched out of his hand, that speaks of his faithfulness... But it doesn't change that we may walk out of his hand! ;)

Isn't that exactly what the Jews would be doing (as you state in the other thread)? If they can do it, is that somehow impossible for us?

Blessings...

 

[savedbygrace57]

glory

I say God's grace is given to all men through Christ's death, and those who come by faith partake of the resurrection.

This is works, glory feels that everyone had the same grace given, but those who come, which is an act of the man, is what saved a person. Thats exactly what Paul teaches against, because as soon as it is admitted that it was what the sinner did and not what Christ did that got them saved, then the sinner has reason to boast. That is condemned by scripture.

Eph 2:8,9

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Again, whenever it is declared that the sinner did something to make the difference of who is saved, thats works and it is boasting, Period..

 

[savedbygrace57]

prentis

Man is saved by obedience to the gospel.

That is false, and it is salvation by works. salvation by works or one's obedience is the same.

Those who are saved, are made righteous by the obedience of One, not Two, but one Rom 5:19


19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[Prentis]

The sinner must do something - it's called repent! :yes

God does not arbitrarily save some and destroy others, he is not a respecter of persons. Rather he offers his grace, so that all who would love him could have the power to obey his commands, and give him glory.

It is well pleasing to him that we turn our hearts to him, and this, we must choose to do!

 

[Prentis]

prentis
That is false, and it is salvation by works. salvation by works or one's obedience is the same.

Those who are saved, are made righteous by the obedience of One, not Two, but one Rom 5:19


19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

And faith without works is....

By his obedience, we receive mercy, that we might be saved. But we must then choose this... Otherwise all must be saved!

Rather it is those who follow after Christ who are saved! Not those who see him go by!

 

[francisdesales]

No, it means He NEVER KNEW them.

"Knew" is an intimate term in the Bible. This is exactly what Jesus was talking about when He said, "I never KNEW you." They had not been born again...they had not been filled with the Holy Spirit, nor had they been "sealed" by the Holy Spirit.

Oh boy... Let's try to think about this, please...

We already discussed this, haven't we? Here is what the Bible says.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Now, does Jesus deny that the "many" prophesized by the name of Jesus? Does Jesus deny that they cast out demons by the name of Jesus? And mighty works - AGAIN. In Jesus' name.

You got a lot of explaining to do if Jesus "never knew them" but these guys were able to do supernatural works using Jesus name without Jesus "knowing them". That makes little sense, when you think about this. Obviously, Jesus knew them - He is God! And secondly, people do not do good works in Jesus name without Jesus HIMSELF granting the gift of grace to DO IT!!! NO ONE can cast out demons unless God allows it - through the use of Jesus' name. How could Jesus NOT know suchy a person???

Jesus Himself admits this when He states that HE is not the devil or working for the devil who casts out His own kind - it is by the finger of God that He does such things - just as His followers are doing them. When someone is doing something in the name of Jesus, rest assured, it is not the devil doing it...

Now, what does this verse REALLY mean??? It means that those righteous ways of the past will not be remembered. And you cannot deny that those WERE righteous ways - casting out demons and doing mighty works in the name of Jesus, it is pretty obvious, are righteous and known by God. Those deeds of the past, good as they were (to include that one moment in time faith declaration) means NOTHING if you turn to wicked ways. Or return to the vomit. Again...

But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Ez 18:21-24

We must persevere UNTIL THE END. If you don't, those good deeds of many years ago will be forgotten. The current wicked ways are how you will be judged.

Regards

 

[savedbygrace57]

prentis

By his obedience, we receive mercy

Thats True, but that mercy saves Titus 3:5

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

By His obedience, which is His Death by the way Phil 2:8, by that obedience of His , ONE, many Shall be made Righteous Rom 5:19

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Not by the obedience of Two, which would be His obedience and your obedience, thats mixing works with Grace, condemned by the scripture !

 

[savedbygrace57]

prentis

The sinner must do something - it's called repent!

Thats works Salvation.Listen to yourself, the sinner must do something to get saved ! You flat out deny that what Christ did saves a sinner..

Paul stated 1 Tim 1:15

15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

 

[Prentis]

prentis



Thats works Salvation.Listen to yourself, the sinner must do something to get saved ! You flat out deny that what Christ did saves a sinner..

Paul stated 1 Tim 1:15

15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Yes, and Paul was saved 'just as he was', and remained 'wicked as hell', and continued persecuting the church, but he was saved! :help

Listen to yourself, you talk as though the unfaithful servant was accounted great because he did not work... But we are called to to the works of God! (Ex. If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God)

 

[savedbygrace57]

prentis

Yes, and Paul was saved 'just as he was', and remained 'wicked as hell',

I dont know what you talking about there. But i do know that you preach a false Gospel of works, tha tman is saved by his obdience, whereas the scripture states that by the obdience of ONE, many shall be made Righteous Rom 5:19, whereas you do lie and say it is by the obdience of two !