Saved by Grace not of works !

[Grubal Muruch]

Actually, those who were once enlightened, and those who tasted of the heavenly gift can fall away...


4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. (Hebrews 6)

It is the old man who seeks assurance and to save himself, the new man only seek to give his life.

What denomination are you affiliated with??

 

[francisdesales]

I'm afraid my dear fellow, you are wrong. I would expect nothing less...

Oh. Why didn't you just say so...:eeeekkk:eeeekkk:eeeekkk

Considering your past inability to defend a position, I am not surprised that THIS is how you defend your point of view - by fiat...

 

[francisdesales]

It is he, who is "born-again Spiritually" that will be given "eternal life" If your "not" born again you'll not enter the Kingdom of God...

That is not under debate. What is being debated is whether EVERY spiritually born again person will persevere. The Bible does not indicate this happens universally for every "born again spiritually" person. Two Peter makes that clear. Which, I fear, is why you refuse to even crack your bible open to that letter. The truth might hurt too much.

After one is born again the works/fruits follow due to the "presence" of the Holy Spirit in one's life...

Clearly, you think there is some magic conveyor belt called "God's Holy Spirit" that automatically works behind the scenes, once you made that "declaration", perhaps 50 years ago. It is a childish thought that has little to do with reality seen through observation. Sanctification is a process of growth, it is not something we watch passively. It is a path that people CAN and DO choose to reject later, even AFTER being shown the way.

Your refusal to even consider the "he was never saved to begin with" dilemna is telling... You are being intellectually dishonest by pretending that people dont' fall away - or making a statement of sophistry about their past status, as if you had knowledge of whether they were truly saved or not.

The rest doesn't even address what we are talking about - whether one can give up their inheritance to heaven.

 

[Prentis]

What denomination are you affiliated with??

None. I meet with brothers in our homes, seeking to be conformed to Christ.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Oh. Why didn't you just say so...:eeeekkk:eeeekkk:eeeekkk

Considering your past inability to defend a position, I am not surprised that THIS is how you defend your point of view - by fiat...

I'm afraid my dear fellow, you wouldn't notice if I defended my position or not. Due to the fact your so busy "gloating" over your own "inadequacy"

 

[francisdesales]

Those that are "truly" born again WILL persevere...Due to the fact they have "The Holy Spirit" in their life...1 John 1:18 states, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." We as "believers" still have this "body of sin" and are capable of sin...1 John 2:1 states, "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"

REALLY???

So who was at work in Pastor Billy Bob Sue, a self-proclaimed born again Christian who SWORE he was saved (interject an "allelulia" where ever you see fit...), washed from sin by the blood of Jesus Christ (can we get an "AMEN", maybe from Glorydaz?) He couldn't POSSIBLY fall away - HE SAID SO!!!! He was baptized by God's Spirit, preached the Gospel every day of the week, twice on Sundays, ministered to his little community. Did this for YEARS...

But then, we find out, oh, Pastor Billy Bob Sue, how could you DO this! Sexual affairs with one of the elder's wives! Gasp! :help

You believe that the devil was working in Pastor Billy Bob Sue for all these years, bringing numerous people to Christ??? What did Jesus say about a Kingdom divided???

Doesn't it sound absolutely idiotic to say,

"...well Pastor Billy Bob Sue was NEVER saved to begin with. He faked it from day one. He was lying to us all, he never was washed in the blood of Christ. It was the devil who was preaching all that time, not a saved Pastor, a fellow born again Christian. Hey, Jesus never knew him."

I am thankful that most Protestants aren't this dumb to buy into this... for anyone who subscribes to this cannot even know that THEY are saved to begin with, since THEY might do the same thing the good pastor did here... And the mob will consider you another unwashed pagan who was merely pretending to be saved...



The name "Pastor Billy Bob Sue" is a fictional charecter, and any such similarities to a named real pastor are purely coincidental... But hey, it won't matter because they aren't saved nor were they, even though they thought they were...

 

[francisdesales]

I'm afraid my dear fellow, you wouldn't notice if I defended my position or not. Due to the fact your so busy "gloating" over your own "inadequacy"

Sure, the silence of your "defending your position" is deafening... :p

That's why you still have failed to address 2 Peter 2:20. I'm wondering if you even realize that this is in Sacred Scriptures... You DO realize that Sacred Scriptures is more than just Pastor Billy Bob's 100 favorite verses to memorize?

As far as inadequacies, why would I gloat over that? That makes no sense. Sort of like your theology.

 

[francisdesales]

Based upon my previous "discussions" with you, you showed a disturbing lack of knowledge concerning, what it means to be "born again" Your opinion was, as I recall, "water baptism" is the conduit by which one becomes "born again" You were, off, by say, 20 million miles (the distance from planet earth to Venus)

I can see your knowledge of religion is just as lacking as your knowledge of astronomy... :biglol

If you think baptism is meaningless, a simple ritual of no consequences, crack open Romans and turn to chapter 6. Start reading....

 

[Free]

Address the arguments and not the person or this thread will get shut down.

Thanks.

 

[glorydaz]

glory



lol, you tell me, I am here promoting salvation by Grace apart from works, anything man does, and you deny it, and state that man is saved by what he does, denying salvation by grace. You also deny that Christ's death, which inludes His resurrection, does not save anyone in and of itself !

No, you're saying God does everything for us, but only certain ones.

I say God's grace is given to all men through Christ's death, and those who come by faith partake of the resurrection.

 

[Prentis]

We can throw mud at a catholic for seeing the flaws in protestantism, but then we are just doing the same as what protestants blame Catholicism of doing to Luther for seeing some flaws in the catholic church! How ironic!

The issue is, modern evangelicalism preaches a 'magic Jesus'... A Jesus that arbitrarily chooses to save men just because... And leaves others to die just because...

But this is not the truth. The truth is we ARE responsible for what is given us.

 

[glorydaz]

??? Are you saying altar boys were never saved? Or are you talking about priests who preyed on altar boys???

Whatever you mean, it avoids the obvious point - that the priest/pastor/lay person/ human being can be saved and then fall away from walking in Christ...

You call it a rant so you don't have to address the issues it brings up with that false theology of yours.

Those priests who molest altar boys were NEVER born again believers.

Those TV preachers who have bigger houses than Michael Jackson were NEVER born again believers.

When someone comes to the Lord and says, "Didn't I do all this stuff in your name?"
He replies, "I NEVER KNEW YOU." So just because you claim they were saved and fell, Jesus states otherwise.

Or, are you suggestiing Jesus lies?

 

[francisdesales]

Not a bad excuse to avoid the subject matter, I guess!

We can throw mud at a catholic for seeing the flaws in protestantism, but then we are just doing the same as what protestants blame Catholicism of doing to Luther for seeing some flaws in the catholic church! How ironic!

Yes, stirring the pot isn't helping, (mea culpa) but it is frustrating dealing with people who refuse to address points so that the big sacred cow doesn't get knocked over. I've been dealing with this "dynamic duo" for quite some time...

The issue is, modern evangelicalism preaches a 'magic Jesus'... A Jesus that arbitrarily chooses to save men just because... And leaves others to die just because...

But this is not the truth. The truth is we ARE responsible for what is given us.

Well said. One can quickly read Matthew 25 and see this in the parable of the talents. God gives graces and some choose not to use them. Not because they "never were saved", but because they choose to RETURN to the vomit...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Those priests who molest altar boys were NEVER born again believers.

Baloney. You don't become a priest in Western culture unless you believe in God and in Jesus Christ. Seriously, get real... Are you AWARE of what priests give UP to become a priest???

Those TV preachers who have bigger houses than Michael Jackson were NEVER born again believers.

I am not affiliated with such persons, but I also doubt that one becomes a preacher with the INTENT of bilking money away from others. In addition, you don't have to go to "TV preachers" to find adultery or other predatory behaviour among the flock...

When someone comes to the Lord and says, "Didn't I do all this stuff in your name?"
He replies, "I NEVER KNEW YOU." So just because you claim they were saved and fell, Jesus states otherwise.

Or, are you suggestiing Jesus lies?

I have already discussed what "I never knew you" means with you. Jesus is not lying, you are misunderstanding what He means, as I laid out with Scriptures from the OT. He means that what you did in the way of righteousness is forgotten, not that it NEVER HAPPENED. It is how we act NOW that matters. Not what you did years ago (if they are opposing). Big difference.

And of course, ironically, your statement may be made to YOU, using your own logic of salvation... Maybe something you do in the future will deem you "never known" by Jesus. So you don't even know you are saved, do you...

Regards

 

[Prentis]

Yes, stirring the pot isn't helping, (mea culpa) but it is frustrating dealing with people who refuse to address points so that the big sacred cow doesn't get knocked over. I've been dealing with this "dynamic duo" for quite some time...



Well said. One can quickly read Matthew 25 and see this in the parable of the talents. God gives graces and some choose not to use them. Not because they "never were saved", but because they choose to RETURN to the vomit...

Regards

Well said. :yes

 

[Prentis]

Those priests who molest altar boys were NEVER born again believers.

Those TV preachers who have bigger houses than Michael Jackson were NEVER born again believers.

When someone comes to the Lord and says, "Didn't I do all this stuff in your name?"
He replies, "I NEVER KNEW YOU." So just because you claim they were saved and fell, Jesus states otherwise.

Or, are you suggestiing Jesus lies?

This means Jesus never knew them in character. Jesus seeked obscurity, they seeked to receive glory. This does not mean they never had a touch of God. God gives us grace so that we would unlearn the old ways and walk in his ways, and BECOME like him.

They never did.

 

[savedbygrace57]

No, you're saying God does everything for us, but only certain ones.

I say God's grace is given to all men through Christ's death, and those who come by faith partake of the resurrection.

You deny that Christ's death saves, that is not the Gospel of Christ. You teach a false Gospel that man is saved by what he does, that is works..

 

[Prentis]

You deny that Christ's death saves, that is not the Gospel of Christ. You teach a false Gospel that man is saved by what he does, that is works..

Man is saved by obedience to the gospel. Otherwise hearing the gospel alone would save... But it is not the hearers, but the doers who are saved.

Otherwise, the ground on which the seeds falls that doesn't bear fruit is 'saved' too!

 

[glorydaz]

This means Jesus never knew them in character. Jesus seeked obscurity, they seeked to receive glory. This does not mean they never had a touch of God. God gives us grace so that we would unlearn the old ways and walk in his ways, and BECOME like him.

They never did.

No, it means He NEVER KNEW them.

"Knew" is an intimate term in the Bible. This is exactly what Jesus was talking about when He said, "I never KNEW you." They had not been born again...they had not been filled with the Holy Spirit, nor had they been "sealed" by the Holy Spirit.

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

No, it means He NEVER KNEW them.

"Knew" is an intimate term in the Bible. This is exactly what Jesus was talking about when He said, "I never KNEW you." They had not been born again...they had not been filled with the Holy Spirit, nor had they been "sealed" by the Holy Spirit.

Well said Glory, Bless you...