Saved by Grace not of works !

[MarkT]

It [Salvation] is not of him that willeth !

Rom 9:12-16

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


It cannot be made more plainer that Salvation is not the result of human will or exertion or effort, all of which equals works ! The word willeth here is the greek word:thelō:


to will, have in mind, intend

a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose

b) to desire, to wish

c) to love

1) to like to do a thing, be fond of doing

d) to take delight in, have pleasure

This word implies volition which means:

the act of willing, choosing, or resolving; exercise of willing:

a choice or decision made by the will.


Now how many false teachers and preachers have stated man must make a decision or choice to get saved ? Its countless millions !

They appeal to such passages as Joshua 24:15

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

or Isa 1:18-19

18Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

19If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

Both of which applied to the Covenant Nation of Israel, and had nothing to do with Gospel Promises !

Paul goes on and writes in Rom 9:16 nor is it of him that runneth ! This word runneth is the greek word trechō:


to run

a) of persons in haste

b) of those who run in a race course

2) metaph.

a) of doctrine rapidly propagated

b) by a metaphor taken from runners in a race, to exert one's self, strive hard

c) to spend one's strength in performing or attaining something

d) word occurs in Greek writings denoting to incur extreme peril, which it requires the exertion of all one's effort to overcome

Salvation is not a result of one's performing, or striving.

Jesus did not mean that one is saved from the penalty of their sins by striving to enter in when He said:

Lk 13:24

Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Nor did Paul mean one can run as to win the prize of Salvation, as though it depended on man 1 Cor 9:24

Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

But the Gift of Salvation which is by Grace is not obtained by him that runneth Rom 9:16.

All these terms, running, willing or choosing, striving denotes man's efforts , man's works, actions or deeds..

So if a man says that he is saved by his freewill, then he is saying that he is saved by his own works, exertion, and it is impossible to escape this conclusion. Such teaching contradicts what scripture teaches in so many places such as Rom 9:16

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

One is saved solely by God's Mercy ! Titus 3:5


5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


And God's Mercy is discriminatory Rom 9:18

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Which is based on His Election 9:11

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth )

Which was determined beforehand Rom 9:23

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

The Mercy here is not a mere offer of Mercy, but it is an Sovereign Application of Mercy, experimental Mercy according to God's Sovereign will on the afore prepared vessels of mercy !

If you're talking about election and God's choosing, then it may be you are not talking about salvation per se. For I know hardly anyone understands. So this causes me to think. Understanding and knowledge are important, but I think that there are many who are strong in their faith who will be saved, though they might be short on knowledge and understanding. In other words, salvation may also come to those who are not chosen, provided they believe. What I mean is, suppose a man is chosen to teach. Through his teaching, the many who were not chosen may come to believe. God would know who they are, and he would have mercy on them. Anything is possible with God.

I'm not here to judge anyone or condemn anyone. I'm here to encourage. I know the condemned will condemn themselves in the end.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You know there were maidens who were shut out because they didn't keep their candles lit?

However I understand SBG. Jesus will lose none of his sheep.

I would agree the calling is not works based. But if works don't count, then it really doesn't matter to the one who works if his works don't count for anything. He is in the same place as you - saved by grace. Then again Jesus said 'keep my commandments' and Paul said, 'Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel!' 1 Cor. 9:16 And also he said we would receive a reward for building our house with silver, and gold, and jewels. 1 Cor. 3:14 And James said, 'be doers of the word, not just hearers.' James 1:22

I don't know what you hope to gain by your teaching, if your teaching, which is your work, counts for nothing. Is your work all for nothing? According to you, work doesn't save. So why are you working? Why are you working and at the same time telling others their work doesn't count?

I know in the end we are in God's hand, and I agree, no one can change that.

I have to agree, I've never been able to glean the value of the argument. If God ordains it all anyway, why don't we all just go back to bed and stop wasting so much time and effort on things that have no bearing whatsoever on salvation.

 

[Hitch]

I have to agree, I've never been able to glean the value of the argument. If God ordains it all anyway, why don't we all just go back to bed and stop wasting so much time and effort on things that have no bearing whatsoever on salvation.

Do you think its possible for a given act to have bearing on eternity when salvation is a given?

Do Stephen and Paul receive the same reward as the thief?

 

[MarkT]

Or it may be according to God's election, purpose, and mercy, that all who believe are chosen, though all are not given equal talents of knowledge.

When it came to Israel, God said, 'I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Ba'al.' Which means he will save them. They will believe in the end, and they will be saved.

 

[MarkT]

I have to agree, I've never been able to glean the value of the argument. If God ordains it all anyway, why don't we all just go back to bed and stop wasting so much time and effort on things that have no bearing whatsoever on salvation.

Yeah. But SBG has made some good points. You know the story of the ugly duckling? When you find out you're a swan, it's kinda hard to be anything but a swan. In that sense, our calling is made clear. God has ordained all things. You don't ask God why he made you a swan. You just go with it, hoping that in the end you will find out who you really are. I still don't know who I am. All I know is I am the light.

 

[MarkT]

Acts 11:18

18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

2 Tim 2:25

25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Good argument against freewill. No one can repent and come to know the truth unless God grants it. Then again, everyone who asks receives. Would God give him a serpent?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Do you think its possible for a given act to have bearing on eternity when salvation is a given?

Yes. What we do after we are saved in service to God earns rewards commensurate with the gift we are given and what we were expected to do with that gift.

Do Stephen and Paul receive the same reward as the thief?

No.

All three have salvation equally. But each is rewarded according to the service expected of them while in the body.

But if I'm understanding the argument about freewill vs. no freewill properly, it's about one's will in regard to salvation itself, not one's will within salvation. No?

 

[savedbygrace57]

Rom 3:20

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

To those who believe and feel that because of their faith or believing or repenting, is something they did in the flesh to get saved, you are in reality proclaiming your salvation by the deeds of the law or by the deeds of the flesh !

The word deeds is the greek word ergon, the same word used for works, and it means:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasized in opp. to that which is less than work

It includes anything done or accomplished by the mind ! Mind is defined as:


(in a human or other conscious being) the element, part, substance, or process that reasons, thinks, feels, wills, perceives, judges, etc.: the processes of the human mind.

You see that ? The mind works, it functions !

So if one believes they are saved because of the function of their mind or reason or will, that works, deeds !

And the Word Law in Rom 3:20 is the greek word nomos and means:

anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command

a) of any law whatsoever

1) a law or rule producing a state approved of God

a) by the observance of which is approved of God

2) a precept or injunction

3) the rule of action prescribed by reason

b) of the Mosaic law, and referring, acc. to the context. either to the volume of the law or to its contents

c) the Christian religion: the law demanding faith, the moral instruction given by Christ, esp. the precept concerning love

d) the name of the more important part (the Pentateuch), is put for the entire collection of the sacred books of the OT

Now one of the meanings of Law is a Command. Now does not scripture tell us that Believing is a command of God 1 Jn 3:23

23And this is his commandment [or law], That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Also does not God command men to repent ? Acts 17:30

30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

So those of you who insist that you are saved because you obeyed a command to believe or a command to repent, then you are saying you are saved by the works of Law, and thats a false way of Salvation, I am telling you now ! You have rejected Salvation by Grace !

 

[Stan53]

But Paul is quite clear here in Romans 2 - good works are indeed needed for final salvation:
God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
Paul certainly does believe that good works "save", but only when those works are generated by the Holy Spirit.

Paul does NOT say "good works are needed for salvation." He says; To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
Paul does NOT say "good works save", in actuality, Paul says in Rom 1:17; For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed —a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.â€

Now to this famous text from Ephesians 2, so deeply misunderstood:
Here is Ephesians 2:8-9 from the NASB:
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that (Y)no one may boast.
In verse 9, the writer is denying the salvific power of doing the works of Law of Moses, and not the more general category of “good worksâ€.

Your understanding of this verse is flawed. Paul is dealing with gentile believers, NOT Jewish believers. There would be no need at all, nor is it indicated, that he refers to The Mosaic Laws. Paul says in v4&5; But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions —it is by grace you have been saved.

A point of method: It simply will not do to declare up front that the writer is talking about good works here. That begs the question, since the term “works†is not qualified by the term “good†or anything else that would rule out the possibility that the “works†of the Law of Moses is the subject. The fair-minded reader needs to ask which of the following views makes more sense given both the local context and the broader context of the whole letter:
1. The salvific power of doing good works is being denied;
2. The salvific power of doing the works of the Law of Moses is being denied.
Explanation 2 is the one that makes sense in light of what the writer goes on to say in verse 11.

This would be your method, NOT proper exegesis. Paul says "works", period. Any kind of works. Salvation is in NO WAY, attributable to what ANY man can do.

Proceeding to an examination of Ephesians 2:11 and following, Paul uses the "therefore" to show us that he is now going to fill out the implications of his denial of salvation by “worksâ€

That would be your assertion, but NOT what Paul means. He uses "therefore" to bridge his conclusion in v10; For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
This is Paul's conclusion of verses 2-9. Verse 11 bridges and starts an additional thought that goes through to verse 13.

The writer is clearly now talking about the Jew-Gentile divide, and how the actions of Jesus have brought Jew and Gentile together. Doing the works of Law of Moses, of course, is what demarcates Jew from Gentile in terms of covenant membership and shuts the Gentile out of citizenship in Israel.

Paul wrote; remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.
Paul is saying; now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.v13
These are all actions that are completed in these Gentile believers, despite the reality of the Old Covenant with the Jews. They are now under the New Covenant with the Jews. Now they are believers because of the blood of Christ. v13.

The writer continues:
14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations
How much more clear could the writer be? What has divided the Jew from the Gentile and been the barrier? Good works? Obviously not, both Jew and Gentile are on “the same side†of any good works barrier (first 20 or so verses of Romans 3). It is doing the works of Law of Moses, of course, that is the very thing that the Jew might otherwise boast in and which is now being declared to not be salvific.

What IS clear is that Christ abolished the "law with its commandments and regulations", which is the demarcation from the OC to the NC.
What He did, is shown clearly in verse 10; For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

We can't do good works before we are saved and created in Christ to do them.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Grace is given not offered !

2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

When scripture tells us that Grace is given, this is not as false teachers tell us an offer of Grace, in fact Grace is never in scripture said to be an offer, but given, and this being given is never external, but an internal principle of spiritual enablement or ability, the energy of the Spirit of God, it is at times called the Spirit of Grace or that God pours out grace by his Spirit Zech 12:10

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

This I believe is what Paul says here Titus 3:5-6

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

This word shed is the greek word ekcheo and means:


to pour out, shed forth

2) metaph. to bestow or distribute largely

That is exactly what the prophecy says in Zech 12:10, that He will pour out His Spirit !

Notice also in Zech 12:10 as to who specifically would be the recipients of this Blessing, the House of David, which is His Elect People, as well as Paul was writing to a gentile Pastor with the Faith of God's Elect Titus 1:1-4


Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Again, this Grace given is an spiritual inward strength , for the Heart is made strong by Grace Heb 13:9

Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

This Grace strengthens the inner man Eph 3:16

That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

And this word Grace Charis it is a free gift, freely given or bestowed upon all for whom Christ died Rom 5:15

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

This free gift of Grace is not offered, which is by the One Man Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many ! Not offered by abounded. The word abounded means:

a thing which comes in abundance, or overflows unto one, something falls to the lot of one in large measure

to be abundantly furnished with

God causes it to abound to many ! 2 Cor 9:8

8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

And its a Free Gift, not because it is an external Offer, but because it's communicated internally by the Spirit of God in New Birth !

This Grace we receive in Time, was given us already in the Eternal Purpose of God in our Surety of the Covenant, if we are of the Election of grace !

 

[Elijah674]

Good argument against freewill. No one can repent and come to know the truth unless God grants it. Then again, everyone who asks receives. Would God give him a serpent?

God's WORD said that Noah preached for 120 years [with the STRIVING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT] right along with his preaching. Gen. 6:3

And these of Matt. 7's Broadway?? God tell's the UNIVERSE what the problem is for [[ALL OF THESE LOST.]]

 

[Stan53]

Grace is given not offered !
And its a Free Gift, not because it is an external Offer, but because it's communicated internally by the Spirit of God in New Birth !
This Grace we receive in Time, was given us already in the Eternal Purpose of God in our Surety of the Covenant, if we are of the Election of grace !

OK, well the last time I looked, their was no vote in scripture as to who got saved.
John 3:16-18; 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Romans 8:28-30; 28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

I am one of the "whoever believes". I am one of the "those".

 

[savedbygrace57]

stan

OK, well the last time I looked, their was no vote in scripture as to who got
saved.

You coming out of left field with foolishness ! Deal with the scripture I provided !

 

[Stan53]

Stan
You coming out of left field with foolishness ! Deal with the scripture I provided !

I resist the urge to say something sarcastic. I made my point and comment. Deal with it or don't, that is your prerogative. Just try not to insult people.

 

[Stan53]

Saved by Grace not of works ! The GIFT of Grace.

Matthew 7:11
If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!
John 4:10
Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.â€
Acts 1:4
On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.
Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus is the gift to ALL the world, John 3:16, for whoever believes. His gift, OUR choice.

 

[John O]

This debate confuses me from the aspect that it appears the discussion is about whether God chose some to be saved and disqualified others (of never gave them the chance because the were not selected)

Could someone explain to me how the discussion reached this end. (Yes I know it has been going on since Calvin) My point is when the word of God seems to contradict itself default to the character of God. The word cannot counter His character so there must be another explanation and in most occasions its context.

2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some count slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not purposing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This scripture is very clear that God would not have "any" perish and this clearly contradicts the election of grace interpretation that only some are chosen to be saved. We all concede that not all will be save because some will choose not to respond to the gospel but scripture is clear all will have the opportunity.

In conclusion how does this discussion advance the kingdom of God? We should stop worrying about this issue and worry that unless we proclaim the gospel to the world people will go throughout eternity without access to the Most High God.

We seem to look at the light (as in lightweight/less important) aspects of the
salvation issue being faith/works and need to look at the heavy (more important) issue which is this world is condemned unless the gospel is preached to them.

A person searching for the truth on God's will miss the very important forest of Grace caught up looking at the trees of faith vs works. Please let us not add fuel to this confusion but seek to make easy for the searcher to see past us and to see God.

We can all one day sit up in heaven and ask God which is more correct but I am sure when we see it in comparison with the glory of the eternal we will be ashamed that we got caught up in such a discussion. It is clear that the important thing we need to discuss is what we can do to enable 2 Peter 3:9 to be initiated so that none will perish. We are called to be God's hands and feet in this world.

John O

 

[Stan53]

This debate confuses me from the aspect that it appears the discussion is about whether God chose some to be saved and disqualified others (of never gave them the chance because the were not selected)

Could someone explain to me how the discussion reached this end. (Yes I know it has been going on since Calvin) My point is when the word of God seems to contradict itself default to the character of God. The word cannot counter His character so there must be another explanation and in most occasions its context.

2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some count slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not purposing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This scripture is very clear that God would not have "any" perish and this clearly contradicts the election of grace interpretation that only some are chosen to be saved. We all concede that not all will be save because some will choose not to respond to the gospel but scripture is clear all will have the opportunity.

In conclusion how does this discussion advance the kingdom of God? We should stop worrying about this issue and worry that unless we proclaim the gospel to the world people will go throughout eternity without access to the Most High God.

We seem to look at the light (as in lightweight/less important) aspects of the
salvation issue being faith/works and need to look at the heavy (more important) issue which is this world is condemned unless the gospel is preached to them.

A person searching for the truth on God's will miss the very important forest of Grace caught up looking at the trees of faith vs works. Please let us not add fuel to this confusion but seek to make easy for the searcher to see past us and to see God.

We can all one day sit up in heaven and ask God which is more correct but I am sure when we see it in comparison with the glory of the eternal we will be ashamed that we got caught up in such a discussion. It is clear that the important thing we need to discuss is what we can do to enable 2 Peter 3:9 to be initiated so that none will perish. We are called to be God's hands and feet in this world.

John O

Hi John,

In a perfect world yes, but we don't have that. Paul was always teaching against false prophets and teachers. We have ne less of a responsibility to do that ourselves. Just as Paul fought the ancient Judaic teachings that tried to influence Christianity, some of us must fight against the ancient teachings of Calvin and others that continue to influence the Church today.

 

[John O]

Stan53
You have missed my point. The teacher who seeks to teach the letter of the gospel instead of the spirit of the gospel will continually get caught up in the minor issues of life finding fault with any view that does not agree with theirs. As you are aware there is a particular member who pushes all scripture through the filter of "scripture only" but like us all that filter is tainted by the true self based filter which is "scripture only but as interpreted my me."

We engage this member as if they might hear an opposite view point but this of course is impossible because of the belief system as mentioned above. I am more concerned with those who see such discussions and walk a way thinking that this Christianity is just too hard when it is both simple and easy when we trust in God and leave the controversies to Him.

I know what I think on this topic but it matters not if those seeking answers are put of by my desire to be right. God never asked us to be right, He asked us to seek Him with all our heart so that we might know Him. The hard stuff is put on a shelf until God tells us to look at it again and He will reveal more of Him in that area.

John O

 

[Stan53]

Stan53
You have missed my point. The teacher who seeks to teach the letter of the gospel instead of the spirit of the gospel will continually get caught up in the minor issues of life finding fault with any view that does not agree with theirs. As you are aware there is a particular member who pushes all scripture through the filter of "scripture only" but like us all that filter is tainted by the true self based filter which is "scripture only but as interpreted my me."

We engage this member as if they might hear an opposite view point but this of course is impossible because of the belief system as mentioned above. I am more concerned with those who see such discussions and walk a way thinking that this Christianity is just too hard when it is both simple and easy when we trust in God and leave the controversies to Him.

I know what I think on this topic but it matters not if those seeking answers are put of by my desire to be right. God never asked us to be right, He asked us to seek Him with all our heart so that we might know Him. The hard stuff is put on a shelf until God tells us to look at it again and He will reveal more of Him in that area.

John O

Again I have no issue with what you say. Just that some of us see that some issues NEED to be "rightly divided". There is a fine line between letting go and letting God, and doing it in the flesh. I pray I will not do it in the flesh. I have walked away from many discussions, when God impresses it on me to do so.

 

[dadof10]

Stan53
You have missed my point. The teacher who seeks to teach the letter of the gospel instead of the spirit of the gospel will continually get caught up in the minor issues of life finding fault with any view that does not agree with theirs. As you are aware there is a particular member who pushes all scripture through the filter of "scripture only" but like us all that filter is tainted by the true self based filter which is "scripture only but as interpreted my me."

We engage this member as if they might hear an opposite view point but this of course is impossible because of the belief system as mentioned above.

How is this "opposite view" arrived at? Private interpretation?

I am more concerned with those who see such discussions and walk a way thinking that this Christianity is just too hard when it is both simple and easy when we trust in God and leave the controversies to Him.

I think people want to know the Truth and they realize that there are going to be disagreements by honest people seeking the Truth. I've never heard of anyone just chucking Christianity because people disagree on doctrine.

I know what I think on this topic but it matters not if those seeking answers are put of by my desire to be right. God never asked us to be right, He asked us to seek Him with all our heart so that we might know Him. The hard stuff is put on a shelf until God tells us to look at it again and He will reveal more of Him in that area.

John O

To some people, myself included, seeking God involves testing our view of Him and His ways through discussions of doctrine with people who hold different views. How can I know if I'm right that say...salvation is not by faith alone, if I don't test this doctrine by bringing it forward to people who disagree? This is part of the process of knowing Him more fully because He wants us to KNOW Him fully. We should seek Him with all our hearts....and all our heads.