[__ Science __ ] Scientific argument for God's existence

[Not_Now.Soon]

I read it and did a study on it when I was a Christian. His arguments fall short just like they all do.

Clizby, I get the impression of the blind leading the blind. An unwillingness to proceed because of an unwillingness to give a matter a chance. When you say the arguments fall short, like they all do, this goes to the heart of the matter. Like bureaucratic red tape tripping up so much in government from proceeding because paperwork was not filled out correctly while different agencies require different forms at the same time but can't proceed until the other forms are filled out first.

There has to be more then just "arguments fall short" in the search for finding God. Otherwise you will have is a willingness to justify and rationalize arguments away because some people don't want to believe. "Arguments falling short" is the blind leading the blind.

In response, I ask this in hopes to open your eyes.

Fall short of what?

 

[daninthelionsden]

I am sorry this happened to you. This is not the reason I don't believe in God. I don't believe because there is not sufficient evidence to support that belief. This kind of thing is the reason I believe he is immoral if he exists. He knew you were going through this but did not act to help you like most moral people would.

I suppose if I were an atheist and believed this were all there was, then I too, would believe as you. All I see of my life was that I was being spared from the absolute evil intended to destroy me. I believe this life is preparation for the next, so I believe this life passes as but a twinkle or just a snapshot in the whole scheme of eternity.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, but that is because I have sufficient evidence to conclude that it will. I know what an elevator is, I know they are designed and they have gotten me to the floor I need in the past with regularity.

It is illegitimate to equate the faith I have in an elevator with the faith you have for a God for the reasons I described above.

Look around you, almost everything you see, phones, cars, buildings, etc. are here because scientists found out principles of our universe and engineers used those principles to make things. No where in the bible did we get this information. The only reason that science is reliable is because it can be demonstrated to be true. Do you really think that we will discover that the earth is flat, or that gravity doe snot work like we believe it does, or that what we know about forces will be wrong after we have been using these principles and demonstrating them to be true for centuries?

Well C, elevators could break down, but you have faith that it'll take you to your floor. Faith is faith. I have faith in my husband.
I have faith that the food I eat is not poisoned. I have faith that my daughter is going to pick me up later on. I have faith in a lot of things. Including God.

You say science can be demonstrated to be true.
I agree that it can demonstrate and prove many things.
But I'm sure you know why; Because it has physical laws that can be counted on and do not change. Seems to me these physical laws are more constant than an science is because science changes as it learns new concepts or realizes old ones are not correct.

If it were not for stable physical laws, there would be no science.
And somehow those stable physical laws came into effect.

Yes, but that is because new evidence was found by scientists that changed their mind. Your faith will not allow you to change your mind.

Science never claims to know anything, scientists believe things to be true based on demonstration and evidence.

We may not know what gravity is but we know exactly how it reacts and works because we can demonstrate that. Will that understanding ever change? No, not unless the universe changes.

If it was proven that God does NOT exist, of course I'd change my mind. It would be crazy for me to believe in something that has been proven not to exist.

I feel that God is also based on demonstrative evidence. You say we know that gravity exists because we see how it works and it can be shown. God is like that too. We don't see Him with our eyes, but He's like gravity...we see the effects of God.

The universe is full of positive and negative....
in electricity and also in nature and also in man's behavior.
What causes this? What causes good? What causes evil?
Is it our mind? What is mind? What is conscience?
No answer for these questions unless you put an intelligent being into the equation.

Science does not claim to create things, it only describes the universe. This is the difference between your faith and the one you say I have. I believe things based on demonstration and evidence you just said you believe that God created everything by faith. Not evidence.

I have thought about these things. This is unfortunate but correct we don't know the answer to what was before the universe began. But that does not warrant the insertion of a god without evidence. I don't know is a perfectly honest answer.

No, I believe God created everything because science does not have a satisfactory answer and will never have one because it cannot go beyond the big bang.

And if discovery does not warrant the insertion of a God...
then neither does it NOT warrant insertion of a God.
God is a possibility and He should not be excluded.
How embarrassing if He were proven to be the creator in the end!

I never said it was everything only that it has a proven track record of coming to the truth better than any other system I know. I don't claim it is the only way to truth.

Great, but the things that you do know cannot be demonstrated.

Science needs to be falsifiable. Tell me how intelligent design is falsifiable.

No scientist thinks Christianity is a threat. Which ones? Most scientists do not care about arguments for God because they cannot be demonstrated to be true.

The fact that atheists can't stand the idea of God is such common knowledge that the above doesn't even warrant a reply. If you don't believe a fact,,,I'm not going to try to convince you of it.

To come to a truth,,,we should accept ALL possibilities.

Generally true. How does this demonstrate god created it?

This is untrue, the Cambrian explosion is well understood in evolutionary theory. There are mountains of evidence that supports evolution, where is your evidence for God?

It does not say poles, it says corners.

No, all humans share a common ancestor (hominid) that was a branch of the evolutionary tree. Not the same thing as the first two humans.

The Cambrian Explosion is NOT well understood.
Darwin recognized that it was a problem but believed that science would find the solution within the next 100 or so years. (things moved much slower back then). As it is, there is still no explanation for it...unless you'd care to venture a guess.

There was very little life BEFORE that strato,,,and then a giant explosion of animals...where did they all come from? Isn't evolution supposed to be gradual? Where are the intermediate stratos? There are none and no one knows why.

I have studies these things but I get my information from scientists not apologists.


This is generally true.


We don't know. You need to demonstrate that your God created the universe and not just say science does not have the answer. I can demonstrate that my computer was made, You cannot demonstrate that the universe was made by God.

Your demonstration of truth should not rely on my lack of knowledge. Can you demonstrate that you know how the universe began?

I don't have faith in things that can be demonstrated. It is a little dishonest to compare your belief in god to my belief in gravity. I can demonstrate how gravity works you cannot demonstrate god exists.

What? Well we have:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/15/science/synthetic-genome-bacteria.html

And when they figure out how our life began what will you say then?

I have studied this, but again not from apologists but from scientists.

I like to study scientists too.
Apologists explain a religion....not the cosmos.
However, there are some scientists that are atheist and remove God from the equation...and some scientists are Christian and keep God in the equation while searching for the truth.
Who is wiser?

As to your NYTimes article,,,I found it funny.
Prior in this post you said scientists cannot create...and not you claim they can.

What did they create with? Already existing material.
They modified the DNA,,,,they did not create it.
Thus they made something different.
Man cannot create life...it's too complicated.

How long would it take evolution to get to a human from that?
Since the universe did not always exist,.....time is no longer on your side my friend.

Do you know who James Tour is?
A top, if not the best, chemical scientist in the world.

Here's a link in case you or anyone else is interested in what Chemistry has to do with life and why it was impossible for life to come from nothing.

 

[GodsGrace]

Why should I believe your interpretation of the Bible over other Christians?

Then why hasn't he corrected them? If he did not want us to kill homosexuals then he let people do it because they thought god wanted them to. He could have stopped it.

Jesus said some terrible things and he believed the OT to be all true and all about him. he claimed to be God and that puts all of those orders from God on Him. You can say man said these things but many other Christians think differently, how do I tell the difference if you all have faith but no evidence?

Can Jesus stop child abuse? I bet if you could stop a child from being raped then you would. Why won't Jesus? Jesus watches and then says he will punish the rapist later. That is not a moral being.

I don't have an interpretation of the bible.
I'm not a theologian. I DO however read a lot and I can't say I'm a fundamentalist Christian. I don't know if the earth was made in 6 days or 6 million years.

My beliefs may be somewhat different from others, but the beliefs are based on theology, not my own understanding of the bible. There are scholars that study and know much more than we ever will.

As I read some of the laws at Moses's time, it does seem logical to me that a man made those laws and not God. I had made a list once....I'm not going to take the time to do another one. A person can believe what he wishes in this regard since there is not just one accepted understanding.

You say some other strange things that show your lack of understanding of spiritual matters.

I'll only tell you this: There are two powers at work in our world...one of them is benevolent and one of them is evil.
We see these powers at work all around us. We must decide on which side we stand.
There is even scripture about this:
Ephesians 6:12 (sounds to me like you own a bible).

 

[GodsGrace]

This is untrue. We don't get to choose our beliefs, we wither are convinced or we are not by good or bad evidence. Show me the evidence that God exists and I will have to believe, I will have no choice.

This is a cop out. If you have evidence of Christianity then either show it or don't claim you can "prove" god exists.

Christianity is not a religion based on nothing.
It is based on reason...it's a reasonable religion.

Think about this:
Where were the Apostles when Jesus was crucified?

 

[GodsGrace]

I am sorry this happened to you. This is not the reason I don't believe in God. I don't believe because there is not sufficient evidence to support that belief. This kind of thing is the reason I believe he is immoral if he exists. He knew you were going through this but did not act to help you like most moral people would.

God made us with free will.
What you're espousing is a God that interferes with life on a moment to moment basis...this is not the world He created; although we cannot understand why.

This should cause you to try to understand evil....
NOT deny the existence of God.

 

[stovebolts]

This is a cop out. If you have evidence of Christianity then either show it or don't claim you can "prove" god exists

Hi Clizby
I would like to remind you that you are our guest. As our site name announces, this is a Christian site.
We all understand that you are hostile toward God and His word, and i believe many within our community have given you sufficient grace as you have offended or belittled our God while trying to undermine our faith. You have been treated fairly and considering comments as quoted, you have been treated fairly.

If i see anymore outbursts like the one above or if i see anymore confrontation toward our faith, your account will be immediately banned.

Think about it like this. You invite yourself to our house for dinner and we provide the spread on the table. Is this the table talk you would engage in while at our table?

Our charity is limited.

 

[Clizby]

Well C, elevators could break down, but you have faith that it'll take you to your floor. Faith is faith. I have faith in my husband.
I have faith that the food I eat is not poisoned. I have faith that my daughter is going to pick me up later on. I have faith in a lot of things. Including God.

Your use of faith when you talk about god is different than the use of faith when talking about an elevator. I can demonstrate a high confidence level of an elevator based on demonstrated past performance I cannot demonstrate a high confidence level in a God existing.

You say science can be demonstrated to be true.
I agree that it can demonstrate and prove many things.
But I'm sure you know why; Because it has physical laws that can be counted on and do not change. Seems to me these physical laws are more constant than an science is because science changes as it learns new concepts or realizes old ones are not correct.

This line of reasoning is misrepresenting science. Science changes based on the evidence. This does not mean that all things we consider to be true today are in question. Like I already said, do you really think that the theories of atoms, gravity, spherical earth, mechanics, heat transfer or fluid dynamics are going to change drastically? No, because they have been demonstrated to be true over and over again by an open scientific process. So saying science cannot be trusted because it changes is not the entire story.

If it were not for stable physical laws, there would be no science.
And somehow those stable physical laws came into effect.

Yes, and that is still a mystery in science. Can you demonstrate a god created them?

If it was proven that God does NOT exist, of course I'd change my mind. It would be crazy for me to believe in something that has been proven not to exist.

And if god was proven to exist I would believe in that god.

I feel that God is also based on demonstrative evidence.

What is this evidence?

You say we know that gravity exists because we see how it works and it can be shown. God is like that too. We don't see Him with our eyes, but He's like gravity...we see the effects of God.

What are those affects and how can you relate those affects to a god.

The universe is full of positive and negative....
in electricity and also in nature and also in man's behavior.
What causes this? What causes good? What causes evil?
Is it our mind? What is mind? What is conscience?
No answer for these questions unless you put an intelligent being into the equation.

Evolution has an answer for these questions.

No, I believe God created everything because science does not have a satisfactory answer and will never have one because it cannot go beyond the big bang.

One has nothing to do with the other. Just because science does not know how things came to be does not mean an alternate possibility is true. That possibility needs to be demonstrated.

If there is a jar filled with skittles and you say that there are an even number of skittles and I say I don't believe you because you don't have evidence for an even number, I am not saying then that there is an odd number of Skittles.

And if discovery does not warrant the insertion of a God...
then neither does it NOT warrant insertion of a God.
God is a possibility and He should not be excluded.
How embarrassing if He were proven to be the creator in the end!

So is the possibility that leprechauns created everything. But before we believe something to be true we should require evidence.

The fact that atheists can't stand the idea of God is such common knowledge that the above doesn't even warrant a reply. If you don't believe a fact,,,I'm not going to try to convince you of it.

Most atheists don;t have a problem with the idea of god, it is when those ideas affect others in a negative way.

To come to a truth,,,we should accept ALL possibilities.

Not at all. We should accept something to be true after it has been demonstrated by sufficient evidence to be true. With you idea why would you reject the Allah as the creator of everything?

The Cambrian Explosion is NOT well understood.
Darwin recognized that it was a problem but believed that science would find the solution within the next 100 or so years. (things moved much slower back then). As it is, there is still no explanation for it...unless you'd care to venture a guess.

There was very little life BEFORE that strato,,,and then a giant explosion of animals...where did they all come from? Isn't evolution supposed to be gradual? Where are the intermediate stratos? There are none and no one knows why.

Sorry but this is simply false. You can look into college level science textbooks as well.

Explaining the Cambrian Explosion

I like to study scientists too.
Apologists explain a religion....not the cosmos.
However, there are some scientists that are atheist and remove God from the equation...and some scientists are Christian and keep God in the equation while searching for the truth.
Who is wiser?

Neither, the one that looks at the evidence and comes to a conclusion based on that.

As to your NYTimes article,,,I found it funny.
Prior in this post you said scientists cannot create...and not you claim they can.

What did they create with? Already existing material.
They modified the DNA,,,,they did not create it.
Thus they made something different.
Man cannot create life...it's too complicated.

The article is about creating life per the definition of life. They did not create life as we find on this planet naturally. They did not use previous DNA, they made their own DNA.

How long would it take evolution to get to a human from that?
Since the universe did not always exist,.....time is no longer on your side my friend.

We don't need an infinite amount of time for evolution to be true. Millions of years is enough as can be proven.

Do you know who James Tour is?
A top, if not the best, chemical scientist in the world.

Here's a link in case you or anyone else is interested in what Chemistry has to do with life and why it was impossible for life to come from nothing.

I may watch this when I get time. No one is saying that everything came from nothing, that is just one hypothesis of many. It may be that nothing cannot exist.

 

[Clizby]

God made us with free will.
What you're espousing is a God that interferes with life on a moment to moment basis...this is not the world He created; although we cannot understand why.

This should cause you to try to understand evil....
NOT deny the existence of God.

Once again I do not deny the existence of God.

And the problem of evil is not a reason that I don't believe, its a reason I think god is immoral if he exists.

Would you answer this question I bet I know the answer to? Would you stop a child from being raped if you could? If yes, then why doesn't you god do the same?

 

[Clizby]

Hi Clizby
I would like to remind you that you are our guest. As our site name announces, this is a Christian site.
We all understand that you are hostile toward God and His word, and i believe many within our community have given you sufficient grace as you have offended or belittled our God while trying to undermine our faith. You have been treated fairly and considering comments as quoted, you have been treated fairly.

If i see anymore outbursts like the one above or if i see anymore confrontation toward our faith, your account will be immediately banned.

Think about it like this. You invite yourself to our house for dinner and we provide the spread on the table. Is this the table talk you would engage in while at our table?

Our charity is limited.

I did not mean for it to be offensive, I apologize.

I am not hostile toward your faith, I just don't believe god exists.

Can you show me where I have belittled your faith? This is an honest question.

 

[stovebolts]

I did not mean for it to be offensive, I apologize.

I am not hostile toward your faith, I just don't believe god exists.

Can you show me where I have belittled your faith? This is an honest question.

Hi Clizby
We all understand that you do not believe God exists and we also understand that you do not accept the authority of Scriptures as we do.

As you have stated to me earlier, many of your comments come directly from atheist sites that are hostile toward Christianity and by nature, when you use those methods, they invoke hostility.

But let's talk a moment in regard to common courtesy and common sense. I know by the questions you ask as well as the way you quote others that you are not a stranger to online forums and you are not a stranger to this very topic.

With this in mind, please answer these two questions.
1. As a guest to our site, what truly are you seeking to find?
2. What have you learned from your time on this site as our guest?

Honestly is appreciated.

 

[stovebolts]

Would you answer this question I bet I know the answer to? Would you stop a child from being raped if you could? If yes, then why doesn't you god do the same?

This is one of the many posts from you that i find disturbing because i know where you are trying to lead the conversation.
You know the answer is yes, we would try to stop that. Any civil person would.
You would then bring up Gods omnistic traits and charge God of failing to protect and distorting his nature as uncivil.

Do you not see how this is hostile toward both God and our faith?

BTW, the specific answer to your question can be found in the later chapters of Job. But if you will not seek the truth, you will not be able to see it. I will not reveal it to you.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Your use of faith when you talk about god is different than the use of faith when talking about an elevator. I can demonstrate a high confidence level of an elevator based on demonstrated past performance I cannot demonstrate a high confidence level in a God existing.

Faith is another word for trust. Though faith can mean a little bit more then trust, comparing the context that it's used, it almost always can be replaced with the word trust without changing the meaning or context of what's being said. On the point of looking into a matter (like looking up the track record of an elavator) you can do this with God too. Though the track record will come from those who have a track record to hold on to, and it comes from a personal track record more then a repeatable experiment.

This line of reasoning is misrepresenting science. Science changes based on the evidence. This does not mean that all things we consider to be true today are in question. Like I already said, do you really think that the theories of atoms, gravity, spherical earth, mechanics, heat transfer or fluid dynamics are going to change drastically? No, because they have been demonstrated to be true over and over again by an open scientific process. So saying science cannot be trusted because it changes is not the entire story.

wondering provided the examples of theories in the science community that are spoken with confidance that then change. The point is that if the same measure of confidance is used for theories that don't change as it is used for theories that change several times in one's lifetime, then that shows a fault in their measure of confidance. Medical science I am very cautious of, because they say this is better, this is safer, or this is the way to do it, then either change their minds years later, or worse just months later because people believed the experts a large portion of the population is in worse condition then they were before, with a law firm advertising conpasation for those who took the advise of the experts.

Yes, and that is still a mystery in science. Can you demonstrate a god created them?

Look up miracles. There are a lot of claims, but there is still a lot of those claims that go beyond the explainations we can offer. An answer to a prayer, or in a miracle or other means, can show God's power and authority over the natural laws that we know. There's no reason to conclude that He couldn't create the laws of nature we take for granted. Again if you want to seek demonstration then research miracles.

And if god was proven to exist I would believe in that god.

What is this evidence?

There have been a few on here that have been willing to tell you of their experiences, and let you hear the evidance that they have seen. You not wanting to accept that God can give personal evidance is like going back to the elevator example of faith with a person who won't travel in an elavator and look up the track record of elevators to see that they are safe. This phenomon exists more so with the fear of flying then it does a fear of riding an elevator though. The same quality though is your refusal to consider another person's experiences.

What are those affects and how can you relate those affects to a god.

I made a post on the first page of this thread. In it are observations that lead me to the conclusion that God exists. They are based on observations of the world around us, and the fields of study relating to those observations. In essence the observations are 1) the complexity of life, and of the world around us, 2) the rarity of life in the universe, and 3) the resilience of abundant life on Earth in the face of the lack of life in the universe.

Evolution has an answer for these questions.

Evolution is a theory in biology. It does not add an explaination to anything else. Inspite of how many theories claim an evolutionary link, unless they are a biological field of study evolution has no more merit in those theories and conclusion then measuring electricity has merit in architecture.

One has nothing to do with the other. Just because science does not know how things came to be does not mean an alternate possibility is true. That possibility needs to be demonstrated.

Again the blind leading the blind. Failure to consider a posibility to see if it is true until, it is proven to be true. The problem here is that many people won't give a posibility a chance and therefore won't even consider evidance if it's brought before them.

So is the possibility that leprechauns created everything. But before we believe something to be true we should require evidence.

There is evidance. What is required after that is to consider the merit of the evidance.

Most atheists don;t have a problem with the idea of god, it is when those ideas affect others in a negative way.

And when the idea of God has a positive effect? Neither a positive effect nor a negitive effect are proof of God existing. Possibly only a matter about how people's ideas of God are influencing their behavior. Some are very positive, kind, and charitable, regardless if God is real or not.

Not at all. We should accept something to be true after it has been demonstrated by sufficient evidence to be true. With you idea why would you reject the Allah as the creator of everything?

This leads into the investigation of Islam. For me Islam has several issues in it. One of those issues is that they say they have faith in God, yet they doubt and correct too much that is said in Christian and Jewish texts. Can God protect His own words or not. Without even going into the track record of Islam, you can conclude that it is false because it holds no foundation to support it all. Everything before it about God is considered suspect and corrupted.

Sorry but this is simply false. You can look into college level science textbooks as well.

Explaining the Cambrian Explosion

Why not go into the explaination a bit. Several people have come to the conclusion that the Cambrian Explosion of species is a hole in the theories of evolution. There are even links and you tubes that persuasively explain it that way. If those conclusions are wrong, why not go into some detail on the matter yourself.

 

[Clizby]

Hi Clizby
We all understand that you do not believe God exists and we also understand that you do not accept the authority of Scriptures as we do.

As you have stated to me earlier, many of your comments come directly from atheist sites that are hostile toward Christianity and by nature, when you use those methods, they invoke hostility.

This is untrue. I take in information from christian apologists, Christians, atheist sites and books and come to my own conclusions and what I believe and have reasons for my belief. I so not cut and paste arguments from any site. I said I read and think about ideas form atheist sites.

But let's talk a moment in regard to common courtesy and common sense. I know by the questions you ask as well as the way you quote others that you are not a stranger to online forums and you are not a stranger to this very topic.

With this in mind, please answer these two questions.
1. As a guest to our site, what truly are you seeking to find?
2. What have you learned from your time on this site as our guest?

Honestly is appreciated.

1. I would like to know why people believe in a god. I care more about why people believe than the belief itself.
2. That Christians can not explain why they believe to an unbeliever. I don't blame the believer for this because if God does exist he should be able to communicate that to everyone that wants to believe as a minimum.

Religion affects real peoples lives everyday some good and some bad. It seems though that the bad outweighs the good when it comes to religion. If God does exist then ok we deal with the bad, but if we do not have sufficient evidence to warrant belief we should not and start basing our beliefs on good reasons.

 

[GodsGrace]

Clizby

I wonder what type of proof you're looking for.
The feeling I get is that nothing would satisfy you.

You haven't answered my question...
which might include some proof...

Where were the Apostles when Jesus was crucified?

 

[Clizby]

This is one of the many posts from you that i find disturbing because i know where you are trying to lead the conversation.
You know the answer is yes, we would try to stop that. Any civil person would.
You would then bring up Gods omnistic traits and charge God of failing to protect and distorting his nature as uncivil.

Why is a real honest question uncivil. I am not distorting his nature, I am describing what I see if God exists. It is a true statement of fact. How is it not? Why does God not do anything about the horrible violence in this world? If the answer is I don't know then ok. Does your God allow this to happen? It seems this is a fact that he does if he could stop it.

Do you not see how this is hostile toward both God and our faith?

No I don't. It is a real world questions and a consequence of many Christians beliefs.

BTW, the specific answer to your question can be found in the later chapters of Job. But if you will not seek the truth, you will not be able to see it. I will not reveal it to you.

Why? This is the reason that I posted the cop out post which I agree I should not have stated it that way. Why wouldn't you tell me the answer? This makes no sense to me. Is it the "who are you to question me" verses?

 

[GodsGrace]

Your use of faith when you talk about god is different than the use of faith when talking about an elevator. I can demonstrate a high confidence level of an elevator based on demonstrated past performance I cannot demonstrate a high confidence level in a God existing.

This line of reasoning is misrepresenting science. Science changes based on the evidence. This does not mean that all things we consider to be true today are in question. Like I already said, do you really think that the theories of atoms, gravity, spherical earth, mechanics, heat transfer or fluid dynamics are going to change drastically? No, because they have been demonstrated to be true over and over again by an open scientific process. So saying science cannot be trusted because it changes is not the entire story.

Yes, and that is still a mystery in science. Can you demonstrate a god created them?


And if god was proven to exist I would believe in that god.

What is this evidence?

What are those affects and how can you relate those affects to a god.

Evolution has an answer for these questions.


One has nothing to do with the other. Just because science does not know how things came to be does not mean an alternate possibility is true. That possibility needs to be demonstrated.

If there is a jar filled with skittles and you say that there are an even number of skittles and I say I don't believe you because you don't have evidence for an even number, I am not saying then that there is an odd number of Skittles.

So is the possibility that leprechauns created everything. But before we believe something to be true we should require evidence.

Most atheists don;t have a problem with the idea of god, it is when those ideas affect others in a negative way.

Not at all. We should accept something to be true after it has been demonstrated by sufficient evidence to be true. With you idea why would you reject the Allah as the creator of everything?



Sorry but this is simply false. You can look into college level science textbooks as well.

Explaining the Cambrian Explosion

Neither, the one that looks at the evidence and comes to a conclusion based on that.

The article is about creating life per the definition of life. They did not create life as we find on this planet naturally. They did not use previous DNA, they made their own DNA.

We don't need an infinite amount of time for evolution to be true. Millions of years is enough as can be proven.

I may watch this when I get time. No one is saying that everything came from nothing, that is just one hypothesis of many. It may be that nothing cannot exist.

What do you mean?
You say that no one is saying that everything came from nothing.
This is EXACTLY what scientists are having a problem with.
If nothing cannot exist, then what was before?
Do you believe in a multiverse system?

If nothing cannot exist, we have the same problem...
WHO or WHAT made the something?

Darwin's theory worked better with an always existing universe because there would have been an infinite number of years for change.

Now there's a problem because the universe in 14 billion years old and not enough time is available for the chemical basis for life to come into being.

I understood from the article that they changed the DNA....

Here is another article...which BTW, we must wait for this to be published in a scientific journal and accepted by the peer group.

Scientists have created the world’s first living organism that has a fully synthetic and radically altered DNA code.

The lab-made microbe, a strain of bacteria that is normally found in soil and the human gut, is similar to its natural cousins but survives on a smaller set of genetic instructions.

The bug’s existence proves life can exist with a restricted genetic code and paves the way for organisms whose biological machinery is commandeered to make drugs and useful materials, or to add new features such as virus resistance.

In a two-year effort, researchers at the Medical Research Council’s Laboratory of Molecular Biology in Cambridge read and redesigned the DNA of the bacterium Escherichia coli (E coli), before creating cells with a synthetic version of the altered genome.

source: https://www.theguardian.com/science...rst-living-organism-with-fully-redesigned-dna

 

[Clizby]

Clizby

I wonder what type of proof you're looking for.
The feeling I get is that nothing would satisfy you.

The answer is I don't know. How can I know what evidence will be sufficient for me to believe anything? I don;t know all of the evidence that is out there. Maybe there is evidence I don't know about. What evidence would be sufficient enough for you to believe Allah is the real God? When I am convinced by the evidence that will be enough. God knows what would convince me.

You haven't answered my question...
which might include some proof...

Where were the Apostles when Jesus was crucified?

I missed your post, that is why I did not respond to it.

Matthew, Mark, Luke do not indicate that any of the apostles were at the Crucifixion, All mocked Jesus at the crucifixion so presumably John was not there either. Peter was far off. John says "the disciple whom He loved" was there with Mary. So probably not any were there but maybe John if you can somehow mesh the separate accounts.

 

[stovebolts]

Thank you for your honesty. I appreciate that.

I care more about why people believe than the belief itself.

I noticed that. What purpose do you have for the information you are receiving from us?

That Christians can not explain why they believe to an unbeliever. I don't blame the believer for this because if God does exist he should be able to communicate that to everyone that wants to believe as a minimum.

I think what you are really saying is we cannot give you an explanation you are willing to accept. That's ok.

Religion affects real peoples lives everyday some good and some bad. It seems though that the bad outweighs the good when it comes to religion. If God does exist then ok we deal with the bad, but if we do not have sufficient evidence to warrant belief we should not and start basing our beliefs on good reasons.

Here is the way i look at it. There are good people and there are bad people and it doesn't matter which religion they belong to or if they don't belong to any religion at all.

Good people make the world a better place to live in. Bad people take advantage of other people.

If you take a bad person and they come into power, they have the ability to corrupt some of the good people because people naturally look for a leader to follow. History shows us this time and time again and Hitler is a good example of this.

Religion doesn't hurt other people. People hurt other people. When you take a religion that preaches a lifestyle of peace and harmony and you put it in the hands of evil men, they can corrupt good people and lead them astray and evil acts can seem not so bad.

I know you will counter with God telling Israel to slaughter the Canaanites, and i will not defend Gods decision. However, I have studied the ANE and their religion was horrifically corrupt so i understand Gods mercy in slaughtering them. You may disagree, but I don't need to defend God. If you want to judge God on the matter, then it's only fair you study the ANE and all of their religious practices. If you dont study the ANE, then you do not have the information to make a sound judgment on the matter.

The idea that man can and will do evil is at the core of Judaism and Christianity and if one point is clear, is that religion does not exempt anyone from doing evil any more than it exempts an atheist from doing great evil. However, Judaism and Christianity to teach a way that leads to peace.

Jesus said the path to destruction is wide and many will find it. But narrow is the path that leads to life, and only few find it. Matthew 7:23-14

This does not speak to any religion. It speaks to the human race.

 

[stovebolts]

Why? This is the reason that I posted the cop out post which I agree I should not have stated it that way. Why wouldn't you tell me the answer? This makes no sense to me. Is it the "who are you to question me" verses?

I have told you where to find your answer and no, it is not "Who are you to question me". The answer to your question will require you to study the book of Job through Jewish authors. Here is a resource to get you on your way. After you study this, i will give you the second place to look.

Iyov/Job: A New Translation with a Commentary Anthologized from Talmudic, Midrashic & Rabbinic Sources (ArtScroll Tanach Series): Rabbi Moshe Eisemann: 9780899060156: Amazon.com: Books

Iyov/Job: A New Translation with a Commentary Anthologized from Talmudic, Midrashic & Rabbinic Sources (ArtScroll Tanach Series) [Rabbi Moshe Eisemann] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Iyov/Job: A New Translation with a Commentary Anthologized from Talmudic, Midrashic &...

www.amazon.com

How badly do you want the answer? Are you willing to put the work in or are you only interested in gleaning what I've worked and struggled so hard for? You haven't shown any appreciation for Gods word so far and I've seen you misunderstand much of it already.