[_ Old Earth _] Scientific Observation vs God's Truth

[Solo]

On whose authority do you decide what is Christian and what is not? God's? Or is just your own personal interpretation of the bible?

From the beginning of my Christian walk as a babe in Christ Jesus until today I am shown what is truth and what is not on the authority of God's Word through the interpretation of the Holy Spirit which dwells within me.

• 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
  
  12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
  
  14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
  
  15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:10-16

And the Holy Spirit indwells believers for the purpose of teaching in all things, in truth.

• 26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
  
  28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. 1 John 2:18-28
  

 

[jwu]

This is a Christian Discussion Forum, not a False Christian Discussion Forum. It appears you have no Christian answers and must distract from the truth by bowing to the god of man's scientific untruths. It does not surprise me.

The adjective "Christian" still doesn't turn preaching into discussion.
So where is the discussion?

From the beginning of my Christian walk as a babe in Christ Jesus until today I am shown what is truth and what is not on the authority of God's Word through the interpretation of the Holy Spirit which dwells within me.

In other words, you deem yourself infallible in terms of interpreting scripture?

The question again: What about those who say that they are filled by the Holy Spirit too but who disagree with you in terms of scriptural interpretation? Who is right?

 

[blunthitta4life]

From the beginning of my Christian walk as a babe in Christ Jesus until today I am shown what is truth and what is not on the authority of God's Word through the interpretation of the Holy Spirit which dwells within me.

Careful with being overly prideful in your beliefs.

 

[Solo]

The question again: What about those who say that they are filled by the Holy Spirit too but who disagree with you in terms of scriptural interpretation? Who is right?

Me

 

[Orion]

I have to agree with jwu and blunthitta4life. Just because a person whole heartedly believes that their interpretation is absolute, . . . there is another group who ALSO believes whole heartedly that THEY are right, and the other wrong. . . all while both are looking at the same passages.

Here's the issue, as I see it. If absolute truth was. . . absolute, you would not have such huge disagreements. The facts would speak for themselves, and any normal sain person would SEE the facts and all come to the same conclusion.

Question, . . . . what does it say about Christianity when two groups, who read the same Bible, hold very different fews from each other, and they are even looked on as heretics by other Christian groups? Why wasn't this "absolute truth" so absolute that these sort of arguments would never happen? :-?

 

[Solo]

I have to agree with jwu and blunthitta4life. Just because a person whole heartedly believes that their interpretation is absolute, . . . there is another group who ALSO believes whole heartedly that THEY are right, and the other wrong. . . all while both are looking at the same passages.

Here's the issue, as I see it. If absolute truth was. . . absolute, you would not have such huge disagreements. The facts would speak for themselves, and any normal sain person would SEE the facts and all come to the same conclusion.

Question, . . . . what does it say about Christianity when two groups, who read the same Bible, hold very different fews from each other, and they are even looked on as heretics by other Christian groups? Why wasn't this "absolute truth" so absolute that these sort of arguments would never happen? :-?

Answer the following questions:

1. Is Jesus God Almighty come in the flesh?
   [/*:m:002a4]
2. Is Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection sufficient to overcome the sins of the believer?
   [/*:m:002a4]
3. Is the Holy Spirit the sole interpreter of the Scriptures for the believer?
   [/*:m:002a4]
4. Is the Holy Spirit the only one that a believer needs to teach them all truth?
   [/*:m:002a4]
5. Are all men and women sinners in need of a Saviour?
   [/*:m:002a4]
6. What is more important in a believer's life, water baptism or baptism of the Holy Spirit?
   [/*:m:002a4]
7. Does Jesus teach that those that do not receive eternal life gain everlasting fire and punishment?
   [/*:m:002a4]
8. Is Jesus the only way into the Kingdom of God?
   [/*:m:002a4]
9. Does a man/woman/child have to be born of God to enter the Kingdom of God?
   [/*:m:002a4]
10. Did God create the Heavens and the earth and all that is within them in six literal days?[/*:m:002a4]

What is your basis of authority of your answers?

 

[Featherbop]

As for the topic at hand, I'll take science, reason, rationality, observation and the tangible over superstition, religion, invisible unresponsive deities, intangible unfalsifiable beliefs, and the like.

If one should choose to accept superstition and patently, demonstratably untrue superstitions and old wives tales over verifiable, observable, tangible science, then one should not use technology derived from scientific understanding.

But that wouldn't happen now would it.

 

[Orion]

Answer the following questions:

1. Is Jesus God Almighty come in the flesh?
   [/*:m:b9a91]
2. Is Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection sufficient to overcome the sins of the believer?
   [/*:m:b9a91]
3. Is the Holy Spirit the sole interpreter of the Scriptures for the believer?
   [/*:m:b9a91]
4. Is the Holy Spirit the only one that a believer needs to teach them all truth?
   [/*:m:b9a91]
5. Are all men and women sinners in need of a Saviour?
   [/*:m:b9a91]
6. What is more important in a believer's life, water baptism or baptism of the Holy Spirit?
   [/*:m:b9a91]
7. Does Jesus teach that those that do not receive eternal life gain everlasting fire and punishment?
   [/*:m:b9a91]
8. Is Jesus the only way into the Kingdom of God?
   [/*:m:b9a91]
9. Does a man/woman/child have to be born of God to enter the Kingdom of God?
   [/*:m:b9a91]
10. Did God create the Heavens and the earth and all that is within them in six literal days?[/*:m:b9a91]

What is your basis of authority of your answers?

1. Jesus was from God. Our understanding of it isn't absolute but given to us vaguely. "I and the father are one" can just as easily mean the same as a husband and wife are one.

2. There is a problem with the wording of your question (...sufficient to overcome the sins of the believer). Sufficient to overcome ALL sin is how it should be stated. If you have a covering of sin, it is for all sin, not just for those who believe it, otherwise the sacrifice wasn't all powerful to conquer all sin. Having said that, according to traditional Christian doctrine, people don't go to hell because of their sins, but because of unbelief, which really isn't a sin.

3. I think people are just as free to interpret Biblical texts as the Holy Spirit giving it to them. The problem is how a person KNOWS it was from the Holy Spirit or just from themselves.

4. I don't think we will ever know "all truth" while we live on this earth.

5. All men and women do sin, yes. Their sins have been rectified. However, they need to live a life of quality and of a high standard of morality. The Golden Rule would be a good one for people to follow.

6. I don't see any work as making you anymore saved than another work.

7. I've seen that stated within Biblical pages. Refer to #3.

8. Probably so. Though perhaps not exactly like many would think.

9. Yes, in our limited understanding of what that actually means. As with #8, we probably don't know fully what it all really means because it was given to rather primitive people to put into words that man uses to express supernatural insights.

10. No, not in a literal 6 days, 6,000 - 10,000 years ago. The earth and universe are far older.


I only have the basis as I see them and what information there is to work with. I'm not saying I necessarily believe this next statement, but it has some merit: When a text states it is absolute truth, how do you really know, . . . especially when the next religion over claims the same thing? You say you go by the "inspiration of the Holy Spirit", but without some earthly proof, like an actual "burning bush in front of you", how do any of us REALLY know?

I like to hold to the truth that God will be God regardless of what labels and characteristics men have laid upon God, past, present, and future.

 

[jwu]

The question again: What about those who say that they are filled by the Holy Spirit too but who disagree with you in terms of scriptural interpretation? Who is right?

Me

In other words, you deem yourself infallible on matters of scriptural interpretation.

How can you really know that it is you who is right when someone else who disagrees is just as certain as you are?

 

[MrVersatile48]

You could call this extract from a student devotional I just posted - http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... ht=#334333 - a Christianity & science project:-

Take pictures on your family vacation that remind you of your Creator and his awesome creation. Place these pictures on your blog or in a scrapbook, and label each one with a passage that fits the picture.

Throughout the summer, look at the pictures and praise God for the beauty of creation he showed you during your vacation.

Here are some passages to get you started:

Genesis 1:11-12 (New International Version)

11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.


Psalm 19:1

The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands

Psalm 29:3

The voice of the LORD is over the waters;
the God of glory thunders,
the LORD thunders over the mighty waters.

Psalm 65:9

You care for the land and water it;
you enrich it abundantly.
The streams of God are filled with water
to provide the people with grain,
for so you have ordained it.

Psalm 84:3

Even the sparrow has found a home,
and the swallow a nest for herself,
where she may have her youngâ€â€
a place near your altar,
O LORD Almighty, my King and my God.


Psalm 93:3-4

3 The seas have lifted up, O LORD,
the seas have lifted up their voice;
the seas have lifted up their pounding waves.

4 Mightier than the thunder of the great waters,
mightier than the breakers of the seaâ€â€
the LORD on high is mighty.


Psalm 96:11-12

11 Let the heavens rejoice, let the earth be glad;
let the sea resound, and all that is in it;

12 let the fields be jubilant, and everything in them.
Then all the trees of the forest will sing for joy;


Psalm 97:2

2 Clouds and thick darkness surround him;
righteousness and justice are the foundation of his throne.

Psalm 98:8

8 Let the rivers clap their hands,
Let the mountains sing together for joy;

Psalm 104:7-8

7 But at your rebuke the waters fled,
at the sound of your thunder they took to flight;

8 they flowed over the mountains,
they went down into the valleys,
to the place you assigned for them.


Psalm 104:10-11

10 He makes springs pour water into the ravines;
it flows between the mountains.

11 They give water to all the beasts of the field;
the wild donkeys quench their thirst.


Psalm 104:12

12 The birds of the air nest by the waters;
they sing among the branches.

Psalm 104:20

You bring darkness, it becomes night,
and all the beasts of the forest prowl.

Psalm 104:25

There is the sea, vast and spacious,
teeming with creatures beyond numberâ€â€
living things both large and small.

Psalm 147:4

He determines the number of the stars
and calls them each by name.

Psalm 148:3

Praise him, sun and moon,
praise him, all you shining stars.

Psalm 148:7

Praise the LORD from the earth,
you great sea creatures and all ocean depths,

Romans 8:19

19The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.

Colossians 3:16.

16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.

========================================================

Did you get a mental picture reading each one, as I did?

All The Wonders Of The Universe

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=18462

Ian

 

[Featherbop]

I still do not get it.

Faith is extremely flexible. It can and does change in order to stay current. A person of faith can bend it to accept science, as well as rejecting discoveries in favor of the belief. Examples of both kinds of faith, people exist.

If it is possible for a person of faith to accept discoveries that contradict previously thought ideas, would that not be a way for faith and science to eventually merge in a persons belief system in order to cease contradictions. In the case of the bible, I do not understand why it matters if a story is literally true or not. The bible is often held as a holy book for giving morality and wisdom, but often, like in the accounts of creation, the literal story is presented as the most important issue. I've read genesis a few times. It has too much symbolism and metaphor among other literary elements to be ignored. Science discoveries do not back the literal genesis idea, and the book even contradicts itself, and may even refer to god using more natural processes than is commonly believed.

I especially do not understand why someone that believes in a god that is or represents truth would say that the gods truth must be accepted over discoveries that humankind makes in the universe supposedly created by the god of truth. Why is a book accepted as truth when it cannot correct itself, but a self-correcting mode of gleaning knowledge is dismissed as anti-truth. So, basically, if one argues this, they are sending the message that their god is incompetent because it couldn't create a universe in such a way that matches with the claims of that gods supposed holy book or that their god is deceptive and intentionally created a universe that contradicts the claims of it supposed holy book.

And furthermore, in the case of christians, why is the so called holy spirit so ineffective as creating unity under truth. I don't even remember, but isn't the holy spirit purported in the bible as a comforter, and not as an agent of giving people notions of what is true and false? Or does its job description include that? Either way, there is still little unity in individual religions...

So basicallly, if I can recap the OP to sum it up correctly:

-One should rely on the holy spirit to confirm truth
-Science is not reliable because it is devised by man

How in the name of anything does this make sense from any point of view?!

I guess what I'm trying to get around to is that in matters of faith, when you have a fork in the road, one leading to a sensical path and the other path being non-sensical, why choose the latter, especially when the faith itself(the christian faith is jesus at heart and the salvation of man) is not even changed by accepting the science discoveries.

 

[Barbarian]

The dilemma has never come up. As a scientist, I have never found anything in science that contradicts anything in God's word.

I've seen many, many things that contradict YE creationism.

But YE creationism is also contrary to God's word, being an invention of men who were not satisfied with Scripture as it is.