Self-Justification = Hell in the End

[AVBunyan]

Again, with feeling – One more time in case you missed it…

Failure to believe the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints (OSAS) is a failure to understand justification by faith which stems from a failure to understand what really took place at Calvary – this equates to a sure path to a lake of fire.


Self-justification means the person is trusting in their actions, beliefs, etc. to justify themselves before God.
Below are some examples of self-justification. Now this post is a bit lengthy but the best will be saved for last..

1. No, I trust in Christ.
2. I just don't think it is as cut-and-dry as evangelicals make it out to be.
3. Maybe most prefer a license to sin, or perhaps OSAS is just a reaction against the fear of losing one's salvation.

1. One cannot trust in Christ alone and yet say they can “gradually “lose their salvation based upon passages that have nothing to do with church age justification. If one thinks they can “gradually†lose their salvation by sinning or walking away then they are not resting in Christ alone – they cannot see the simple gospel Paul preached in I Cor. 15:1-5 for they do not believe Christ’s death at Calvary is sufficient for the sins they are going to most assuredly commit tomorrow
2. It is clear cut as the scriptures make it out to be – the problem is blindness and hardness of heart.
3. Copout – the true saint lives the faith of Jesus Christ and lets grace teach him how to live. The true saint has been made a new creature in Christ Jesus and has been changed – he still sins but not like he used to – if he is truly saved.

The problem with OSAS is that it first assumes that it is true and then interprets all Scripture with that bias. It is much like Oneness doctrine in that sense. ****Whereas the rest of us are at least trying to take into account all that the Bible says on the subject ****

****Herein lies part of the problem ***
Due to the fact that blindness prevails they go to passages that have nothing to do with church age salvation for they do not know Paul’s gospel. They start at Genesis and blindly and ignorantly work their way through the scriptures trampling upon every sound doctrine as they go.

1. You are confusing two aspects of our salvation,....... receiving it and experiencing it.

2. God can turn a man inside out Free. He can cause a man to come to despise even his very fallen nature even while he has nothing else to lay hold of.

3. No Free, a believer cannot lose his salvation,... but he can lose his reward.

Cj has it absolutely right but it goes unheeded due to blindness of others reading his thoughts. Good job Cj….
1. Experiencing salvation does not justify – it is the working out of what has already been done. Some do a better job of experiencing their salvation more than others.

2. Amen – folks cannot see their true depravity – if they did they would know that they cannot become saved or a new creature on their own.

Illustration: How can a pile of dung become a diamond? It can’t – the law of physics says it cannot. What God did at salvation was to take a pile of dung (the sinner – any of us, including myself especially) and make him righteous based upon the merits and work of another (Jesus Christ). What is going on today are “dung piles†(born sinners, dead in trespasses and sins) trying to become nice – sweet-smelling, dung piles on their own. They do not understand what the scriptural word regeneration means. This means something that was once dead is made alive forever more and a dead dung pile cannot make itself alive and sweet-smelling in the nostrils of God.

3. Absolutely right – he can lose his sanity, peace of mind, joy, desire – but he can’t lose what is not is for this is sealed unto the day of redemption – see Ephesians 1:13.

1. I believe what Paul said;
2 Timothy 2:12
Mark 13:13
Rev 2:7
Rev 2:11
Rev 3:5
Exodus 32:33
And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book

2. And yet you, Bunyan, have the nerve to question the salvation of those who question your doctrine.

1. You confuse what Paul says because you do not believe I Cor. 15:1-5:
a. 2 Tim. 2:1-2 – the issue is rewards
b. Mark 13:13 – was before Christ even died – so how can this be used as an example of losing a church – age truth that didn’t even exist at this time???!!!
c. Rev. 2:7, 11; 3:5 – tribulation passages that deal with tribulation – the church has been long gone – has nothing to do with the body of Christ – context is Jewish churches in the tribulation
d. The born sinner was never in the book of life – the book of life is associated with Israel as a nation chosen by God and their is pure OT theology. You didn’t get born right and then sin and die or get blotted out – you were born dead in trespasses in sins separated from God from day one.

2. Not my doctrine – Paul’s doctrine which came from Christ – I just defend it.

- Of course Christ died for ALL the sins of mankind...once they are properly confessed and repented of!!!

Great example of self-justification – look at it closely:
1. This sinner is trusting his “proper confession†– a work by him and…
2. This sinner is trusting his repentance – which again, is a work by him.
This sinner is trusting his works and efforts not Christ – a man is not justified by his works but by the faith of Jesus Christ.

If they believe to the end. That is the whole point.

Now here we have it – the whole problem – Free summed up the problem with his statement for this statement represents so many and has unfortunately condemned so many.
Now here is the issue – what justifies a man before God? According to the scriptures the sinner is justified by the faith of Jesus Christ
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ,
The sinner gets the righteousness of God based upon the faith of Jesus Christ:
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

How are you going to get righteous before God? The answer is found in the verse just mentioned.
Free and others think that their “believing the gospel†justifies them. They think that as long as they “believe†then they are save and if they “quite†believing then they’ve lost it. They are counting on their “believingâ€Â.

Bad news folks – Your believing cannot justify – the faith of Jesus Christ justifies. Justification is found in a person – Jesus Christ – not in your belief in his death for your sins.

If you really believed the gospel of I Cor. 15:1-5 then it is because one day you were dead, The Spirit drew you after hearing the word, then the Spirit quickened and regenerated you, and then your eyes and understanding were opened and then and only then you believed that Chist died for your sins. Dead men cannot believe spiritual thing until they have been quickened and made alive unto God.

Your belief cannot justify – Christ justifies. Your salvation is not based upon your believing nothing. Your believing (if you are truly saved) came as a result of God choosing you and then quickening your dead spirit.

Salvation is not based upon your believing, your repentance, your confession, your not siinning, your rejection later on, etc.

Salvation is in a person, the Lord Jesus Christ – not “your belief†in that person.

 

[cj]

One thing is needed though, remembering that God gives us weaker saints for the salvation of the stronger saints.

If a man has been saved and then becomes thrown off-course as a result of his situation/enviironment/choices this does not mean he was not saved to begin with.

Even if a person has been saved it is quite possible for this person to become shipwrecked in their mind concerning the truth of their new condition.

Meaning this, a saved man can end up believing that he is not completely saved.

Truth is, many time I take a look at some of my own decisions, actions, or situations and question just what am I. But I'm coming to realize that the proof is found in just the reality that I consider my condition with a view of God's take on things. That's how I know I am saved.

Sometimes we become so far off-course, but all it takes is a single call of "Lord Jesus", and then we find that everything good, everything perfect, dwells right in our spirit.

Isn't it wonderful.

The world for a lifetime searches and searches for everything good and perfect, and all that a believer need do is believe and turn to his regenerated spirit.

This is why we are the riches people on this earth, for in us dwells the riches of God in Christ Jesus.

How wonderful is that?

To wonderful.

In love,
cj

 

[AVBunyan]

Agree

If a man has been saved and then becomes thrown off-course as a result of his situation/enviironment/choices this does not mean he was not saved to begin with.

Even if a person has been saved it is quite possible for this person to become shipwrecked in their mind concerning the truth of their new condition.

Meaning this, a saved man can end up believing that he is not completely saved.

I agree - a man can be truly regenerated and get messed up - there are severities of "messups".

I also, believe a man can get truly saved and then think he can lose it later on because of lack of assurance or has been "taught out of it".

What I have an issue with is those that vehemently believe they can lose it and seek to vehemently promote this lie by "teaching others out of thier security".

I believe these types of folks are lost as a goose in a snow storm.

God bless 8-)

 

[stovebolts]

I am sure that I am underqualified for this thread. But I do have a few questions.

Failure to believe the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints (OSAS) is a failure to understand justification by faith which stems from a failure to understand what really took place at Calvary – this equates to a sure path to a lake of fire.

This statement doesn't make any sense to me. When I read this, it sounds like we are to put our faith in this doctrine lest we be sent to the lake of fire. Does the average Christian have to understand and accept OSAS to truly be saved? Are you really saying that if I disagree with you, that I am headed for eternal hell?

2. This sinner is trusting his repentance – which again, is a work by him.
This sinner is trusting his works and efforts not Christ – a man is not justified by his works but by the faith of Jesus Christ.

We are told and called to do rightous works... and we are told to believe in Christ. How can you say that they are trusting in their own repentance? How do you know this? Why couldn't this "work" be done through the spirit, by the spirit as a manifestation of our belief?

Your belief cannot justify – Christ justifies. Your salvation is not based upon your believing nothing. Your believing (if you are truly saved) came as a result of God choosing you and then quickening your dead spirit.

Sounds to me like we don't have a choice :-? Of course Christ justifies. There is nothing a person can do to earn his salvation. However, all people are called so WE Christians really arn't an "Exclusive" crowd in the sense that were special as far as I can tell. We simply answered the call where others refuse to open the door.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

1. I believe what Paul said;
2 Timothy 2:12
Mark 13:13
Rev 2:7
Rev 2:11
Rev 3:5
Exodus 32:33
And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book

And yet you, Bunyan, have the nerve to question the salvation of those who question your doctrine.

My replies are below in red
1. You confuse what Paul says because you do not believe I Cor. 15:1-5:
Actually, I believe the whole epistle. I do not believe Paul is set against Paul, nor do I believe that the scripture which you have cited does anything to establish your OSAS doctrine.

a. 2 Tim. 2:1-2 – the issue is rewards
So "deny us" is a gradient of Christ's rewards to us?
The Greek term for "deny," used for in this scripture for both our denial and His, means to reject.

Since you have identified this rejection with believers (rewards), then you confirm that believers can indeed reject Him.
The context (prior verse) had already proved this.

b. Mark 13:13 – was before Christ even died – so how can this be used as an example of losing a church – age truth that didn’t even exist at this time???!!!

So everything that Jesus taught, should it seem to conflict with Paul's epistles, you reject as 'pre Church Age?'
Paul trumps Christ? If Jesus were in the grave, he'd be turning about now, spinning like the rims on an Escalade.

c. Rev. 2:7, 11; 3:5 – tribulation passages that deal with tribulation – the church has been long gone – has nothing to do with the body of Christ – context is Jewish churches in the tribulation
What specious garbage. John's Apocalypsis is NOT chronological, a fact that can be proved in numerous ways. John begins with the earthly, then reveals to us first the second heaven, then the third. Read the book free from John Hageeisms and Tim Lahayeisms.

d. The born sinner was never in the book of life – the book of life is associated with Israel as a nation chosen by God and their is pure OT theology. You didn’t get born right and then sin and die or get blotted out – you were born dead in trespasses in sins separated from God from day one.
I don't understand where you are going with that argument.

All in all, you've done nothing but demonstrate the lengths OSAS must go to to defend their false doctrine...tearing out the gospels, rejecting the whole OT, giving wildly imaginative interpretations to simple passages.

 

[AVBunyan]

Answers

Hi Steve – I detect your questions are sincere so therefore I will seek to answer them.

I am sure that I am underqualified for this thread. But I do have a few questions.

If you are truly regenerated you are qualified.

This statement doesn't make any sense to me.
1. When I read this, it sounds like we are to put our faith in this doctrine lest we be sent to the lake of fire.
2. Does the average Christian have to understand and accept OSAS to truly be saved?
3. Are you really saying that if I disagree with you, that I am headed for eternal hell?

1. No – just the opposite – salvation is in Jesus Christ – it is what Christ did at Calvary that justifies the sinner. What I am saying though is that one can be saved and confused in their doctrine – I understand this - but if one promotes and truly believes he can lose his salvation then he could most likely be lost for he is not resting on the finished work of Christ. Generally speaking – a saved man will know what he is counting on to get him to heaven for God has opened his eyes to this simple gospel truth.
2. No – see above – but…but… a saved man will most likely see this security in Christ for he understands his only hope is in Christ.
3. No – I trust you understand what I am trying to say. But if you are trusting in your repentance, confession, asking forgiveness, beliefs to justify then you need to examine yourself.

1. We are told and called to do rightous works... and we are told to believe in Christ. How can you say that they are trusting in their own repentance?
2. How do you know this?
3. Why couldn't this "work" be done through the spirit, by the spirit as a manifestation of our belief?

1. We are created unto good works after we have been regenerated. Many people actually trust their repentance and not Christ – this is a work and wrong. Many confuse these good works after justification as the means of justification.
2. I listen to the words out of their mouth and compare their testimonies with Paul’s writings as I’m told to by Paul.
3. This “work†cannot justify. After one is regenerated then good works follow as a result but not to justify. People are getting the cart before the horse. They are confusing practical outworking passages and calling them justification passages.

1. Sounds to me like we don't have a choice
2. However, all people are called so WE Christians really arn't an "Exclusive" crowd in the sense that were special as far as I can tell.
3. We simply answered the call where others refuse to open the door.

1. God chooses – so in a sense if God has called you with an effectual calling then you will be saved.
2. There is a general calling (all) and an effectual calling (those who will be saved.)
3. You answered the call because God drew you by his Spirit, regenerated you, opened your eyes and then you believed. If God had not done the work then you would have remained dead.

Many cannot see the simplicity of Paul’s gospel because they are blind.

May God bless

 

[stovebolts]

AVBunyan,

Thank you for your kind response. I understand that my salvation is secure through Christ, for it is in Christ that I have found both rest and salvation. I am not fearful of loosing my salvation because I have learned of God’s grace through experience. Additionally, it has been that experience that has strengthened my belief. For some, they take faith like a child. For others, it takes putting our hand in His side before the child emerges from within.

I asked,

3. Why couldn't this "work" be done through the spirit, by the spirit as a manifestation of our belief?

You replied

3.
1. This “work†cannot justify.
2. After one is regenerated then good works follow as a result but not to justify.
3. People are getting the cart before the horse.
4. They are confusing practical outworking passages and calling them justification passages.

1. I realize this “Work†cannot justify, but it should confirm right? Where does this line between confirm and justify blur?
2. If one is born again through the spirit, then the spirit manifests good works correct? What qualifies simple good works and what qualifies false justification?
3. I can see where this would be true.
4. For my own edification, would you give me some examples? You can PM me if you don't want to clutter or pull this thread off topic.

I wrote,

1. Sounds to me like we don't have a choice
2. However, all people are called so WE Christians really arn't an "Exclusive" crowd in the sense that were special as far as I can tell.
3. We simply answered the call where others refuse to open the door

You replied,

1. God chooses – so in a sense if God has called you with an effectual calling then you will be saved.
2. There is a general calling (all) and an effectual calling (those who will be saved.)
3. You answered the call because God drew you by his Spirit, regenerated you, opened your eyes and then you believed. If God had not done the work then you would have remained dead.

My question
1. effectual as in effective? In all honesty, it still sounds to me like we don’t have a choice. I do not see what you are seeing at this point. Again, I know that it is nothing that we “do†that saves us for it is God’s grace that does the work. But, we are held accountable for how we respond right? With a good conscience, how is one held accountable for something they didn’t have any say for? Maybe I’m confused here on what your saying because you say “if†and the “if†points to what God does and shows no bearing on what the sinner must do.
2. Can you show me the difference between the two and then tell me why God would not call all with an effective calling?
3. What made my call, or your call, or anybody else’s call any different in the beginning? (The all call) I believe that God has a different purpose for each and every one of. Furthermore, one can be called to a higher calling. However, unless we can not rule out the consequence choice.

Sure, Jonah did the will of God. It took a little persuasion, but Jonah completed the task that God had in store for him. Was Jonah saved? I’m sure he was. But what became the fate of the Ninevites that didn’t heed the warning of Nahum? I’m sure that they suffered the same fate that Jonah would have, had he not chosen to repent and do God’s will. Now, God knew what Jonah would do and what it would take to get him to do it. So again, what blurs this line between obeying, and being called to obey?

Anyway, my thoughts and questions are sincere. I thank you in advance for responding in a kind manner. I believe that through honest debate with eyes to the Lord, the truth always bubbles to the top.

Thanks,
Jeff

 

[guibox]

AV, here is the problem with your reasoning...

Yes, our salvation is not gained on our own merits, however, if we have NOTHING to do with whether we are saved, then freedom of choice is not an issue or it would still be dependant on our 'believing'.

If Christ's sacrifice is all it takes (i.e., his sacrifice brought salvation to all mankind regardless of their efforts), then everyone is saved simply because of Christ's sacrifice. If that is the case, then the Universalists are correct in saying that all are saved and their theology is sound.

Do you believe this?

If not and you insist that that initial coming to Christ to be cleansed is needed, then you must insist that we DO have to do something to be saved. Belief is necessary for salvation. A willing and accepting heart is all God expects for me to obtain this salvation.

If we then have to believe to be initially saved, there is the possiblity of me not believing anymore and rejecting Christ. If not and you insist that Christ's sacrifice was all it took to save me, then the universalists are right.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever would believe in him should not perish but have everlasting life."

If I choose not to believe on Him then I will perish. Unless you say that once I believe in Him, I CANNOT 'un'believe. However this is not the kind of 'believing' that Christ is talking about but a relationship.

Unless you are willing to reject freedom of choice and the human desire to reject God, you MUST be a universalist, otherwise you need to believe that our choice CAN effect our salvation.

 

[farley]

Av,

You've got me confused.

As I understand OSAS, it is one of Calvin's tenets. Others smarter than myself (yet not so smart as to make Calvinism appear as the truth), say that you can't just adopt one of Calvin's tenets without taking all of the others.

Therefore, if one is a proponent of OSAS, then one must also believe in Calvin's Predestination. This would mean that one's fate was determined before one was born. Therefore...justification through faith becomes a non-issue.

Also...

What I have an issue with is those that vehemently believe they can lose it and seek to vehemently promote this lie by "teaching others out of thier security".

...why would you be concerned about the above issue if one is OSAS?

YBIC,

farley

 

[AVBunyan]

Av,

1. You've got me confused.

2. As I understand OSAS, it is one of Calvin's tenets.

3. Therefore, if one is a proponent of OSAS, then one must also believe in Calvin's Predestination. This would mean that one's fate was determined before one was born. Therefore...justification through faith becomes a non-issue.

What I have an issue with is those that vehemently believe they can lose it and seek to vehemently promote this lie by "teaching others out of thier security".

4. ...why would you be concerned about the above issue if one is OSAS?

YBIC,

farley

1. Don't mean to - sorry

2. The issue is not Calvinism but justification by faith - this was taught long before Calvin.

3. I see what you are tring to say - so? Calvin is not the issue. The issue here is justificatoin by "whose faith" - yours or Christ's?

4. Not really sure what you mean here. I have an issue with those who are against OSAS and seek to vehemently promote it.

I know the above are not good answers - long day and time is getting away from me.

God bless

 

[farley]

AV,

Responding to a comment of mine, you said...

4. Not really sure what you mean here. I have an issue with those who are against OSAS and seek to vehemently promote it.

The point I intended to make was that, if you are right about OSAS, then it doesn't really matter if one changes their mind, doubting, or even denying their salvation, because OSAS, right!?!

In Christ,

farley

 

[Vic C.]

Great discussion people. BTW, Paul NEVER trumps Jesus. :wink:

 

[AVBunyan]

Trumping

Great discussion people. BTW, Paul NEVER trumps Jesus. :wink:

Hi Vic - it is a great discussion because the focus is on the great work of Christ at Calvary.

And Vic, you are right - Paul does not "trump" Christ - he adds to Christ based upon the later revelation he was given by Christ himself. All folks have to do is look up the word appear in Acts and you get:
Acts 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

It "appears" that Paul got quite a bit from our Lord:
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Also - a rather obscure verse from II Timothy -
2 Tim 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

I believe this "appearing" is part of the appearings to Paul in Acts where Paul is given the advanced revelation that was "hid" (Eph. 3:9; Co. 1:26) from others utnill our Lord revealed it to Paul only.

For those of you who think Paul never taught anything new that wasn't taugth before I encourage you to study this through for in Paul's writings are the answers to all these debates and discussions.

When Paul said: 2 Tim 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things....He just wasn't whistling Dixie - Pauljust said a mouthful that has gone unheeded today. And for those of you who think I place to much emphasis on Paul then you do not understand me. christ put a lot of emphasis on Paul today - Christ wrote it - He is the Word!!!!

Today - you have to start with Paul for the Lord gave Paul the latest instructions and then you can have the gospels opened up to you like never before and then.... and then....Christ will be revelaed to you as never before!!!

If you don't start with Paul then Christ remains hidden.

God bless
:wink:

 

[AVBunyan]

The point I intended to make was that, if you are right about OSAS, then it doesn't really matter if one changes their mind, doubting, or even denying their salvation, because OSAS, right!?!

In Christ,

farley

Hi Farley - I think I know where you are ready and good thought -

Right - For the truly saved person it doesn't make any difference regarding doubtings or changing of mind, etc. for what he believes will not change Gdo's plan or work in him Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Also - look at the verse that many think teaches the loss of salvation:
Phil 2:12 ..., work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Look at the next powerful and comforting verse:
Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

It is God doing the work anyway. And finally to seal God's work:
Eccl 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it,
and...he seals his work with the Spirit:
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Now for the lost man it does make a difference what he believes regarding OSAS - For this tells me he is not resting on the finished work of Christ alone - he still thinks that by holdinig on until the end or by not giving up his salvation then he will keep his salvation thus making his salvation dependent upon something he is doing or not doing - wrong foundation.

Some people who are truly saved have doubts because of disobedience or not being taught - this is not so bad for this shows a working of the Spirit - the devil will not make a lost man doubt - the devil will make the lost man feel secure in his own vain righteousness. A lost man has not the Spirit in him to cause him to examine spiritual truths - only the work of the Spirit can do this.

Please go to the following site http://av1611bible.com/ and scroll down to the middle of the page and look for the heading "Assurance" and see what the old saints had to say - some great reading - simple and comforting.

May God bless 8-)

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Re: Trumping

Great discussion people. BTW, Paul NEVER trumps Jesus. :wink:

Hi Vic - it is a great discussion because the focus is on the great work of Christ at Calvary.

And Vic, you are right - Paul does not "trump" Christ - he adds to Christ based upon the later revelation he was given by Christ himself.

I find this statement HIGHLY problematic- and so does the scripture that AV posts in his very next post

Eccl 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it,
and...he seals his work with the Spirit:

Yet Paul "added" to Christ.

I doan theenk so. :-?
Paul, as were the other Apostles, were voices, interpreting the Gospel to the disciples. Paul's message was not in any way inconsistent with the other Apostles, as some infer. Besides, Paul met with and submitted his gospel to the "pillars" at Jerusalem. These gave him the right hand of felowship, and ruled on the matters of Gentiles and the New Covenant in the council (Acts 15).

If you don't start with Paul then Christ remains hidden.

God bless
:wink:

I find this also problematic. In this statement, scripture is placed against scripture, and Apostle against Apostle. You cannot read Paul without hearing the whole message beginning with Genesis, nor should you even try to apply his message without hearing out Peter, Jude and James.

Any other teaching is not canonical, is heresy, and is therefore from the Pit.

by the grace of God
James

 

[AVBunyan]

Re: Trumping

I find this also problematic. In this statement, scripture is placed against scripture, and Apostle against Apostle. You cannot read Paul without hearing the whole message beginning with Genesis, nor should you even try to apply his message without hearing out Peter, Jude and James.

Any other teaching is not canonical, is heresy, and is therefore from the Pit.

by the grace of God
James

Hi James - why don't you just stay put with Moses in Leviticus and continue to sacrifice lambs and offer up sin offerings for your sins. I mean - it is in the Bible - is it not? :roll:

I never said neglect or ignore everything but Paul - :o

I never said to not read all the rest of the scriptures - :o

I never said to ignore the Gospels - :o

But you had better find out God's method for opening up the rest of the scriptures. You had better start with the latest instructions given by God before you just anywhere of your choosing.

 

[AVBunyan]

Hi guibox – you raise some good points and I trust I will not make goulash out of all this. Now let’s chat…..

AV, here is the problem with your reasoning...

Never said I had it all down – still working through it all – I’m open to correction from the scriptures.

If Christ's sacrifice is all it takes (i.e., his sacrifice brought salvation to all mankind regardless of their efforts), then everyone is saved simply because of Christ's sacrifice. If that is the case, then the Universalists are correct in saying that all are saved and their theology is sound. Do you believe this?

I am not a universalist. Christ did not die for all – He died for his people that were chosen from before the foundation of the world. Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Belief is necessary for salvation. A willing and accepting heart is all God expects for me to obtain this salvation.

Let’s get back to the basics and see what the scriptures say about our condition without Christ. Once you see this then maybe you will see what part you had in your salvation.
1. Were you born dead?
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:
Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
2. Were you born short of the glory of God and his righteousness?
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
3. Were you without hope?
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
4. Were you void of understanding?
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth,
5. Were you seeking God?
Rom 3:11 …there is none that seeketh after God.
6. Were you able to understand spiritual truths?
1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
7. Was your heart bad?
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked:…
8. Were you blinded to the gospel?
2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

What makes you think you could do anything in regards to getting right with God.

Quick summary – how can a dead man who is without understanding, who is not seeking God, who is blinded to spiritual truth, who is at enmity with God, lost and without hope, a heart that is wicked and not trustworthy, no faith (the faith was a gift Eph. 2:8, 9), and who is separated from God dressed in unholiness and filthy rags of unrighteousness choose God or believe anything spiritual? Your mind was darkened (Eph. 4:8).
Did Lazarus, who was dead as a doornail, come forth on his own power?

Now – you were stuck in the mud with nowhere to go but to a lake of fire. Your problem? How to become perfectly righteous and holy so you can stand before God for eternity? You can’t transform yourself from a pile of dung to a perfect, sinless being dressed in perfect righteousness which is the only way you can be accepted. How does one become perfect who is not?

Impossible – but with God all things are possible. I will tell you what I believe the scriptures teach.

Here is guibox in the above described condition – he is dead and dead men cannot respond to God. God chose guibox in Christ from before the foundation of the world. Christ paid for guibox’s sins at Calvary. God, in time, drew guibox with his Spirit and through the reading or preaching of scripture (Rom. 10:17). The spirit quickened and regenerated guibox – opened up his eyes (II Cor. 4:3-7) and then and only then could guibox believe the gospel and then guibox is saved. Guibox believed because God opened up his eyes after renewing his spirit and making him alive unto God and Spiritual truths. You were given the faith of Jesus Christ and it is His faith that justifies - Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, -

God justified you (cleared you and made you as though you had never sinned) on the basis on what Christ did at Calvary. Now God can accept you in Christ.

Now look at your next statement (I’m not just making this up as I go along – I’m seeking to put some thought into your post here).

If we then have to believe to be initially saved, there is the possiblity of me not believing anymore and rejecting Christ.

According to the verse above – what justified you? According to Rom. 3:22 and Gal. 2:16 it was the faith of Jesus Christ and what he did at Calvary in your stead – not your faith or believing!!! So, the issue of you really believing and then unbelieving is not the issue for your believing didn’t justify – Christ’s faith justified you before God. If you really believed the true gospel then it was because God gave you the faith to believe by doing a work of regeneration in you. So, your “unbelieving†becomes a non-issue – you won’t. You may get mad, pout, walk away, shake your fists, sin, etc. but once you became redeemed and adopted by God you became his forever! You have become a new creature in Christ (II Cor. 5:17) and you will mess up but now you have the Spirit to aid those messups. You will always be God’s adopted son and by law an adopted son cannot become unadopted - hence the use of the word adopted in Romans.

One more exercise if you are interested – go to the first three chapters of Ephesians and underline all the past tense words in a KJV and see just what God did for you and then you tell me how you can undo or “unbelieve†that after it has been done by God?!?!?!?

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever would believe in him should not perish but have everlasting life."

If I choose not to believe on Him then I will perish. Unless you say that once I believe in Him, I CANNOT 'un'believe. However this is not the kind of 'believing' that Christ is talking about but a relationship.

Unless you are willing to reject freedom of choice and the human desire to reject God, you MUST be a universalist, otherwise you need to believe that our choice CAN effect our salvation.

I trust the above explanations will answer this by now.

Bottom line – you believed because God gave you the faith to believe but your justification came by way of the faith of Christ.

The work in you was by God so therefore God gets all the glory – the only way He will have it.

Praise be all to God – amen and amen!

 

[TheScarletPimpernel]

I have quit saying that this is what is so, only what my belief is.

In the OT and NT the place of the dead is referred to as Sheol (OT, Hebrew) and Hades (NT, Greek). See Luke 18.

It contains 3 parts. Abraham's side (paradise) and a fixed gulf. Across the fixed gulf is a place of corruption or, "hell".

Hell is there basically as a prison and punishment for satan and the host of fallen angels. At the end of the age, the devil has a reservation there. Hell was not intended for people. In this life the Cross presents us with a choice as to which side of the gulf our reservation is going to be. Those accepting Jesus and looking forwards to the coming of the Messiah have their reservation in paradise. What remains is that you "work out" your salvation. That you have your talent, but you must do something with it. That from GOD's side, His covenant is completed but from our side, we have to complete it daily.

Those looking to serve "self" and dwell in corruption in this life; making the same choice after satan, which is, beholding the Glory of GOD and yet turning aside from HIM have for themselves a reservation in hell. Once you die there is no longer any possibilty for salvation or to lose your salvation. Once passing from this life into paradise or hell, there is a fixed gulf which cannot be crossed, even by prayer. Thus it is either true, that if you die "in the faith" you are then "Eternally secure" and nothing will be able to take you from the Father's hand, that you will no longer have to guard against the perils of this life. You will be "once saved, always saved".

Equally, if you die in your sins, you have simply no further recourse for eternal redemption. Thus it is those who in this life who are following after Jesus who will be saved!

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

[AVBunyan]

How is a man justified?

Those looking to serve "self" and dwell in corruption in this life; making the same choice after satan, which is, beholding the Glory of GOD and yet turning aside from HIM have for themselves a reservation in hell.

OK- how then is a man justified before God?

It appears you believe that eternal life is based upon your choice of walk? :o

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Re: Trumping

I find this also problematic. In this statement, scripture is placed against scripture, and Apostle against Apostle. You cannot read Paul without hearing the whole message beginning with Genesis, nor should you even try to apply his message without hearing out Peter, Jude and James.

Any other teaching is not canonical, is heresy, and is therefore from the Pit.

by the grace of God
James

Hi James - why don't you just stay put with Moses in Leviticus and continue to sacrifice lambs and offer up sin offerings for your sins. I mean - it is in the Bible - is it not? :roll:

Do you really see a parallel between calling for the whole counsel of scripture in consideration of doctrine and strict Old Covenant Judaism? This perspective bears no small resemblance to Marcionism

I never said neglect or ignore everything but Paul - :o

I never said to not read all the rest of the scriptures - :o

I never said to ignore the Gospels - :o

Nor did I say that you did. Let's not mince words. I objected to the notion that Paul "added" to Christ, and you ignored that. Perhaps because I proved by a scripture of your own posting that this cannot be so?

You have, in fact, made a case not for the gospels to be ignored, but superceded by Paul. "That teaching was for the pre-crucifixion." "That teaching is for the tribulation saints."

That is indeed taking away from God's words. Paul did not add one jot to Christ's teaching in the gospels. He clarified what Christ taught.

But you had better find out God's method for opening up the rest of the scriptures. You had better start with the latest instructions given by God before you just anywhere of your choosing.

Luke 24:27, 32
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself...
And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

No, AV, it ain't about the "latest." It's about Christ opening up the whole scripture. But if there is a pinnacle of truth in the holy scriptures, it's the red bits.
Jesus Christ- the same yesterday, today and forever. Any other teaching is not grafted in, but is the blooming of a wild shoot not connected to the branches. Such wild twigs will burn.