Self-Justification = Hell in the End

[Orthodox Christian]

The Eucharist, or Lord's Supper, is the image of the Covenant which Christ, Paul, Peter and John all identify as the Wedding Supper of the Bride and the Bridegroom.

It's amazing the level of swagger you bring to your mistakes.
_________________


If you are serious with posting this?
Yes Iam
You will need other 'Bible verses' that one can use to build on,
You mean other than the Lord's own words "This my blood of the New covenant?" Or verses that establish that the Lord is the Bridegroom and His Church is the Bride? I think you can find those easily enough. As for connecting Eucharist with marriage, I've provided that background already by means of the links.
to give any creditable 'second' thoughts of truth here! Remember that Peter even had a three time vision from the Lord and still [only] knew that he none understood it.
Relevance? Peter was a human being struggling with the revelations given him. He persevered, and what was revealed was passed on to us. Some was revealed to him, some to John, some to Paul, and so on. Corporately, the Apostles gave us understanding. Paul gave us understanding of the Bride, and John echoed the centrality of this theme in Revelation.

Study this out for yourself before you make hasty and unclear demands. Thanks
James

And also.. 'image of the covenant' you say???
John

Yes, that's what I said. Your point or question?

 

[John the Baptist]

[quote="John the Baptist":1f144]The Eucharist, or Lord's Supper, is the image of the Covenant which Christ, Paul, Peter and John all identify as the Wedding Supper of the Bride and the Bridegroom.

It's amazing the level of swagger you bring to your mistakes.
_________________


If you are serious with posting this?
Yes Iam
You will need other 'Bible verses' that one can use to build on,
You mean other than the Lord's own words "This my blood of the New covenant?" Or verses that establish that the Lord is the Bridegroom and His Church is the Bride? I think you can find those easily enough. As for connecting Eucharist with marriage, I've provided that background already by means of the links.
to give any creditable 'second' thoughts of truth here! Remember that Peter even had a three time vision from the Lord and still [only] knew that he none understood it.
Relevance? Peter was a human being struggling with the revelations given him. He persevered, and what was revealed was passed on to us. Some was revealed to him, some to John, some to Paul, and so on. Corporately, the Apostles gave us understanding. Paul gave us understanding of the Bride, and John echoed the centrality of this theme in Revelation.

Study this out for yourself before you make hasty and unclear demands. Thanks
James

And also.. 'image of the covenant' you say???
John

Yes, that's what I said. Your point or question?[/quote:1f144]

_________
Whatever? Matthew 7:22-27
---John

 

[Orthodox Christian]

John: I'm just not going to take "whatever" followed by a cryptic scriptural reference seriously. Hope you have a nice weekend.

James

 

[John the Baptist]

John: I'm just not going to take "whatever" followed by a cryptic scriptural reference seriously. Hope you have a nice weekend.

James

_________
You mean have a nice Sabbath-day, huh?

By the way, did I not know you from the Time Bomber site? There were some guys there that were 'kind of' interesting? One ex/Jehovah witness guy, I liked him. Yet, he still held on to some funny stuff for doctrine, like you! :wink: You know, 'image of the covenant'. It seems that your Bride is a church, not Christ? Check out Isaiah 5:3 if your leadership can ok for you to do that?? :fadein:

---John

 

[stovebolts]

AV,
I feel like I've been left out of the loop here. Will you respond in kindness that we may have a decent discussion? At the least, we could respectfully agree to disagree and my honest answers will go unanswered.

Jeff

AVBunyan,

Thank you for your kind response. I understand that my salvation is secure through Christ, for it is in Christ that I have found both rest and salvation. I am not fearful of loosing my salvation because I have learned of God’s grace through experience. Additionally, it has been that experience that has strengthened my belief. For some, they take faith like a child. For others, it takes putting our hand in His side before the child emerges from within.

I asked,

3. Why couldn't this "work" be done through the spirit, by the spirit as a manifestation of our belief?

You replied

3.
1. This “work†cannot justify.
2. After one is regenerated then good works follow as a result but not to justify.
3. People are getting the cart before the horse.
4. They are confusing practical outworking passages and calling them justification passages.

1. I realize this “Work†cannot justify, but it should confirm right? Where does this line between confirm and justify blur?
2. If one is born again through the spirit, then the spirit manifests good works correct? What qualifies simple good works and what qualifies false justification?
3. I can see where this would be true.
4. For my own edification, would you give me some examples? You can PM me if you don't want to clutter or pull this thread off topic.

I wrote,

1. Sounds to me like we don't have a choice
2. However, all people are called so WE Christians really arn't an "Exclusive" crowd in the sense that were special as far as I can tell.
3. We simply answered the call where others refuse to open the door

You replied,

1. God chooses – so in a sense if God has called you with an effectual calling then you will be saved.
2. There is a general calling (all) and an effectual calling (those who will be saved.)
3. You answered the call because God drew you by his Spirit, regenerated you, opened your eyes and then you believed. If God had not done the work then you would have remained dead.

My question
1. effectual as in effective? In all honesty, it still sounds to me like we don’t have a choice. I do not see what you are seeing at this point. Again, I know that it is nothing that we “do†that saves us for it is God’s grace that does the work. But, we are held accountable for how we respond right? With a good conscience, how is one held accountable for something they didn’t have any say for? Maybe I’m confused here on what your saying because you say “if†and the “if†points to what God does and shows no bearing on what the sinner must do.
2. Can you show me the difference between the two and then tell me why God would not call all with an effective calling?
3. What made my call, or your call, or anybody else’s call any different in the beginning? (The all call) I believe that God has a different purpose for each and every one of. Furthermore, one can be called to a higher calling. However, unless we can not rule out the consequence choice.

Sure, Jonah did the will of God. It took a little persuasion, but Jonah completed the task that God had in store for him. Was Jonah saved? I’m sure he was. But what became the fate of the Ninevites that didn’t heed the warning of Nahum? I’m sure that they suffered the same fate that Jonah would have, had he not chosen to repent and do God’s will. Now, God knew what Jonah would do and what it would take to get him to do it. So again, what blurs this line between obeying, and being called to obey?

Anyway, my thoughts and questions are sincere. I thank you in advance for responding in a kind manner. I believe that through honest debate with eyes to the Lord, the truth always bubbles to the top.

Thanks,
Jeff

 

[AVBunyan]

1. effectual as in effective? In all honesty, it still sounds to me like we don’t have a choice.
2.But, we are held accountable for how we respond right? With a good conscience, how is one held accountable for something they didn’t have any say for?
3. Can you show me the difference between the two and then tell me why God would not call all with an effective calling?
4. What made my call, or your call, or anybody else’s call any different in the beginning?
5. Sure, Jonah did the will of God. It took a little persuasion, but Jonah completed the task that God had in store for him. Was Jonah saved? I’m sure he was. But what became the fate of the Ninevites that didn’t heed the warning of Nahum?

Hi Jeff - sorry it has taken so long -

1. As a dead sinner you have do have a choice - you will always reject God and choose sin for that is all your old nature can do. When God draws you and quickens you then you will choose God - this is the effectual call answered because God regenerated your dead spirit.

2. Man is accountable to God for he is his creature - he is dead in tresspasses and sins so therefore can have no fellowship with God. The sinner is responsible for his sins.

3. General - God calls men everywhere to repent for this is right - men should repent - problem is - dead men can't. But only his elect will respond for they were chosen from before the foundation of the world in Christ. Ephesians

4. i.e - Why does God choose some and not others? He chooses based upon his good pleasure - not based upon anything we do or don't do. Can God do wrong? Of course not - we know this.

5. Jonah was saved - he was God's chosen vessel from his chosen people, Israel. Thsoe who didn't heed were not saved in the OT sense. Difficult to use OT doctrine to illustrate NT justificational truths.

I did not do justice to your answers for they are difficult to expound in so little space in so little time. Feel free to PM me - I will out of commission starting next Tuesday for a while.

May God richly bless 8-)

 

[stovebolts]

AV,

I do not see 1 and 3 lining up. If man can only choose sin (1), then only the elect (3) are truly called as far as I can sort this logic today. (Please forgive, I have a sinus headache that is pounding)

As a result, how can man be responsible for God's lack of effectual calling toward him? (2) being that man (1) will always choose sin?

Take your time answering this... Like I said, my head hurts today. Maybe the fog will lift tomorrow.

Thanks for answering.

Your in Christ,
Jeff

 

[John the Baptist]

4. i.e - Why does God choose some and not others? He chooses based upon his good pleasure - not based upon anything we do or don't do. Can God do wrong? Of course not - we know this.

May God richly bless
_________________
Independent Baptist - so Independent the Independents don't even like us!

********
???
Genesis 4:6-7 & Genesis 6:3, and Ezekiel 33:11-13 is surely not what God calls His good pleasure! And God is not a God that abides by His own Eternal law?? 2 Corinthians 4:2.
---John

 

[Orthodoxy]

John: I'm just not going to take "whatever" followed by a cryptic scriptural reference seriously. Hope you have a nice weekend.

James

James this brings a rememberance to me of an islamofacist that attacked me once for saying the name Jesus Christ and God in the same breath. He yanked this out of his quran this verse and cursed me.

"The Family of Imran" 3.59: Surely the likeness of Isa (Jesus) is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, Be, and he was.

3.60: (This is) the truth from your Lord, so be not of the disputers.

3.61: But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our near people and your near people, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars.

3.62: Most surely this is the true explanation, and there is no god but Allah; and most surely Allah -- He is the Mighty, the Wise.

I guess they come in all colors and sizes.

Your unworthy servant,

Kyril