Self-Justification = Hell in the End

[TheScarletPimpernel]

OK- how then is a man justified before God?

It appears you believe that eternal life is based upon your choice of walk?

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

It is simply just like God to offer us a choice! It is not necessary for me to put this in here to make my point but I'll take the slightly longer route from Genesis to explain my beliefs.

Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Two trees in the Garden, right? The tree of life which the eating of imparts eternal life. And the tree of knowledge which God said, the day you eat of it you will die.

Man's choice was to elevate himself with knowledge because satan told him this would make him to be like God. All man had to do, to prove his authority and superiority to satan, made as he was already in the "image of God" was simply refuse. He lacked the spiritual maturity to do so. He didn't need the tree of knowledge to be like God because God had already made him to be in His image. In other words, he fell for it and he fell.

Had he eaten of the Tree of Life he would have simply lived forever as God intended him to. His sin was to choose "self" over God.

Therefore....

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Thus, if man fell because he chose to serve "self" and live apart from God, it is therefore logical that a man is justified if he will deny "self" and follow God!

Luk 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

 

[AVBunyan]

Re: Trumping

Luke 24:27, 32
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself...
And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

No, AV, it ain't about the "latest." It's about Christ opening up the whole scripture. But if there is a pinnacle of truth in the holy scriptures, it's the red bits.

Such wild twigs will burn.

You are too much - I feel foolish even responding but I will for the sake of others who may be following this thread.
First all that Christ had at the time of Luke 4 was the OT. All he opened up was the OT. Not until Paul came along wws the word of God fulfilled and opened up.

Are you saying only the "red bits" are the true scriptures - i.e. what Jesus said on earth?

Are you trying to tell me Paul did not get any new revealed truth from Christ? :o

Amazing :roll:

I think alot of these new truths have been hid from you - too bad :

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Re: Trumping

Luke 24:27, 32
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself...
And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

No, AV, it ain't about the "latest." It's about Christ opening up the whole scripture. But if there is a pinnacle of truth in the holy scriptures, it's the red bits.

Such wild twigs will burn.

You are too much - I feel foolish even responding but I will for the sake of others who may be following this thread.
First all that Christ had at the time of Luke 4 was the OT. All he opened up was the OT. Not until Paul came along wws the word of God fulfilled and opened up.

"All that Jesus had." Do you not know that Jesus IS the Word? "All Jesus had"was everything that will ever be said. It is Christ who opened up the scriptures, it IS Christ who opens up the scriptures.

The Gospel is the standard. Paul's words, Peter's words, James' words are (God breathed) COMMENTARIES on the gospel.

Are you saying only the "red bits" are the true scriptures - i.e. what Jesus said on earth?

I ain't "trying to say" anything- my words were very clear:

It's about Christ opening up the whole scripture. But if there is a pinnacle of truth in the holy scriptures, it's the red bits.

Are you trying to tell me Paul did not get any new revealed truth from Christ? :o

Again with the "trying" and the cute emoticons.
What I am saying is that Paul's revelation is from Christ, and agrees with Christ.

All this stumping for Paul, and not a word about James- who also received an appearance from and revelation of Christ.

I think alot of these new truths have been hid from you - too bad :

There is no "new truth"- only revealed truth. What Paul the holy mystic and pillar of the Church did is explain Christ's gospel to the Gentiles, meanwhile dealing with Jewish traditional objections.

 

[AVBunyan]

Re: Trumping

What I am saying is that Paul's revelation is from Christ, and agrees with Christ.

You are still confused - Of course what Paul got from Christ agrees with Christ but....What Paul recieved from the resurrected Christ was newer revelation than what even Christ revealed to even his own disciples in the Gospels - Christ gave Paul advanced revelation that was not available to those during the earthly ministry of Christ - it was hid from them and Christ called out Paul to reveal those hidden truths to Paul - and....if you still can't see that then you do not know how to compare spiritual with spiritual.
You, unfortunately are stuck in the mud with no where to go but to stay bogged down in old OT truths.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Re: Trumping

What I am saying is that Paul's revelation is from Christ, and agrees with Christ.

You are still confused - Of course what Paul got from Christ agrees with Christ but....What Paul recieved from the resurrected Christ was newer revelation than what even Christ revealed to even his own disciples in the Gospels - Christ gave Paul advanced revelation that was not available to those during the earthly ministry of Christ - it was hid from them and Christ called out Paul to reveal those hidden truths to Paul - and....if you still can't see that then you do not know how to compare spiritual with spiritual.
You, unfortunately are stuck in the mud with no where to go but to stay bogged down in old OT truths.

Again with the reference to my alleged "Old Testament" truth. Please feel free to identify ONE of these Old Testament truths" that I cling to.

BTW: Revealing (Apocalypsis) does not equate adding to. If I have a chrysalis and open it to see the butterfly within, I have not added to the chrysalis, nor the butterfly. I have ONLY revealed what was already inside.

 

[guibox]

I am not a universalist. Christ did not die for all – He died for his people that were chosen from before the foundation of the world. Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

So you believe in predestination then? If we are all Christians because God has 'called us before the foundation of the world' then all those who are NOT, nor will ever be Christians never had the option of choosing salvation,
therefore, Christ did not in fact die for all.

Either He died for all and we are all saved (as our efforts or choices have nothing to do with it) and the universalists are right, or we all have the opportunity to choose or reject Christ and thus obtain the merits of salvation.

It can only be one or the other AV

Belief is necessary for salvation. A willing and accepting heart is all God expects for me to obtain this salvation.

Let’s get back to the basics and see what the scriptures say about our condition without Christ. Once you see this then maybe you will see what part you had in your salvation.
1. Were you born dead?
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:
Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
2. Were you born short of the glory of God and his righteousness?
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
3. Were you without hope?
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
4. Were you void of understanding?
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth,
5. Were you seeking God?
Rom 3:11 …there is none that seeketh after God.
6. Were you able to understand spiritual truths?
1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
7. Was your heart bad?
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked:…
8. Were you blinded to the gospel?
2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

What makes you think you could do anything in regards to getting right with God.

We only know God through the working of His spirit and by revelation. Without God revealing Himself to us, we could not know God. However, God doesn't force this knowledge on us. It is something we respond to by the workings of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit works on our heart until we respond to God's workings. He is not some tractor-beam drawing mindless automatons to Him against their free will. God is the still small voice. It is the voice that compels us to search our hearts and realize our life is void without God. It is the voice that impresses on our hearts the sinful nature and therefore turns our hearts towards the one who can save us.

Our sinful state doesn't mean that we don't have the free will or ablility to recognize our sinful state and choose Christ's merits of salvation. We cannot save ourselves, or cure ourselves of the sin problem in any way.

However, don't get choosing to follow God and being saved from our sinful state confused with each other. One is our choice, the other is Christ's doing outside ourselves.

Here is guibox in the above described condition – he is dead and dead men cannot respond to God. God chose guibox in Christ from before the foundation of the world. Christ paid for guibox’s sins at Calvary. God, in time, drew guibox with his Spirit and through the reading or preaching of scripture (Rom. 10:17). The spirit quickened and regenerated guibox – opened up his eyes (II Cor. 4:3-7) and then and only then could guibox believe the gospel and then guibox is saved. Guibox believed because God opened up his eyes after renewing his spirit and making him alive unto God and Spiritual truths. You were given the faith of Jesus Christ and it is His faith that justifies - Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ

Look at the bold above. Without this belief, I could not have had the merits of Christ's sacrifice obtained for me. Plus, this merits is not available for many others as God has 'called me' but not them. God is therefore a respecter of persons and Christ's sacrifice is only for those 'predestined'. Such a God is arbitrary, unfair and uncaring about the freedom of choice that He has given mankind.

If I can choose to accept it, I can choose to reject it. My free will is not null and void based on believing in the merits of Christ. My ability to choose to sin, reject God and walk away from my faith doesn't become non-existent due to accepting Christ's merits.

According to the verse above – what justified you? According to Rom. 3:22 and Gal. 2:16 it was the faith of Jesus Christ and what he did at Calvary in your stead – not your faith or believing!!! So, the issue of you really believing and then unbelieving is not the issue for your believing didn’t justify – Christ’s faith justified you before God. If you really believed the true gospel then it was because God gave you the faith to believe by doing a work of regeneration in you. So, your “unbelieving†becomes a non-issue – you won’t. You may get mad, pout, walk away, shake your fists, sin, etc. but once you became redeemed and adopted by God you became his forever! You have become a new creature in Christ (II Cor. 5:17) and you will mess up but now you have the Spirit to aid those messups. You will always be God’s adopted son and by law an adopted son cannot become unadopted - hence the use of the word adopted in Romans.

My justification has nothing to do with my choice. My acceptance of the merits of this justification does. Again, if you don't believe this, then universalism is true. My 'messing up' doesn't negate my responsibility to continue walking back to the Father to accept forgiveness. If what you are saying is true, I don't need an 'aid' for the mess ups, those mess-ups, past-present-future are already taken care of. Like the neglectful adult child who goes through life allowing his parents to take care of his mistakes and responsibilities without his caring or knowing, we can go on 'making mistakes' and not worry about any potential consequences: we are already saved!

The Bible makes it quite plain that we can't go on sinning, not because we have no choice in the matter but because we can choose to turn our back on what we know. The bible has then wasted many words about turning from sin if there is no worry of it when we are in Christ. Rather, we see that justification doesn't negate sanctification and that our lives are a daily struggle.

A struggle for what??

If we CANNOT be lost, then we are wasting our time 'struggling' or 'striving for the goal' as Paul says. What 'race' are we running??

Why is Paul wasting so much words on the importance of the sanctification process if it doesn't matter??

Bottom line – you believed because God gave you the faith to believe but your justification came by way of the faith of Christ.
The work in you was by God so therefore God gets all the glory – the only way He will have it.

Praise be all to God – amen and amen!

Nobody is doubting that. Your problem is that you are making both of them to be the same thing. What you are saying is that I have no choice in the matter on being saved. Yes I do. Justification has nothing to do with me. Accepting and/or rejecting it's merits do.

Bottom line: Paul says that our path to heaven is a 'race' that we must 'seek immortality' that 'I die daily', that I am sinful and constantly need Christ''s forgiveness of my sins (not mistakes).

And all of these things were preached to 'new Christians in Christ'

Paul sure spoke in redundancies.

 

[Orthodoxy]

Orthodox Christian

Christ is in our midst!

I won't answer every point you have hit on but ....

Since you have identified this rejection with believers (rewards), then you confirm that believers can indeed reject Him.

The context (prior verse) had already proved this.[/color]

It would appear Judas is a prime example of someone having the Holy Spirit breathed upon him by God Himself turning away in a selfish rage and blunder, unable to lose face, committing the most henious of offenses against God in suicide, having his bowels fall out, much like our friend Arius, the apostate priest that denied Jesus is fully, God.

Or Ananias and Sapphira who dropped dead in fear of lying to God and getting caught without a good confession. Lord help me always to make a good confession before you!

b. Mark 13:13 – was before Christ even died – so how can this be used as an example of losing a church – age truth that didn’t even exist at this time???!!!

So everything that Jesus taught, should it seem to conflict with Paul's epistles, you reject as 'pre Church Age?'
Paul trumps Christ? If Jesus were in the grave, he'd be turning about now, spinning like the rims on an Escalade.

Like them shiney ones with the part that spins? Those are so cool. The physics in them things is quite complex. haha

c. Rev. 2:7, 11; 3:5 – tribulation passages that deal with tribulation – the church has been long gone – has nothing to do with the body of Christ – context is Jewish churches in the tribulation
What specious garbage. John's Apocalypsis is NOT chronological, a fact that can be proved in numerous ways. John begins with the earthly, then reveals to us first the second heaven, then the third. Read the book free from John Hageeisms and Tim Lahayeisms.

I used to believe all the "rapture theology" and read the "late great planet earth back in the late 70's. When I was becoming orthodox and finally converted I saw things a bit different and here is how:

Those in Noah's flood much like in these days the people "left behind" mocked God and His servant then died by water. The people "caught up" in the flood being carried in the "Ark" are those who inherited the earth, Noah and His family represents "The Church", those that believe.

If there is any definition of "man made doctrine" it is the 16th century fraud called the "rapture" created by two men out of a small girls dream. A complete and utter phantasy. I know it is hard to believe but it is true. Complete fraudulent theology making millions from duped "christians". Wake up people.

As long as one is "in the ark" one will be save. Get out of the ark? Have a nice swim. God has provided the path of salvation, Jesus Christ. His Ark is the Holy Orthodox Church, the Body of the living Christ.

What has Jesus Christ done for me?

Answered my prayer of " God, if you are true, where is your body? Show me God, your true body?"

That is why today I am unworthy and do not deserve to speak the words "I am Orthodox Christian".

Your unworthy servant,

Kyril

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Orthodox Christian

Christ is in our midst!

I won't answer every point you have hit on but ....

Since you have identified this rejection with believers (rewards), then you confirm that believers can indeed reject Him.

The context (prior verse) had already proved this.[/color]

It would appear Judas is a prime example of someone having the Holy Spirit breathed upon him by God Himself turning away in a selfish rage and blunder, unable to lose face, committing the most henious of offenses against God in suicide, having his bowels fall out, much like our friend Arius, the apostate priest that denied Jesus is fully, God.

Or Ananias and Sapphira who dropped dead in fear of lying to God and getting caught without a good confession. Lord help me always to make a good confession before you!

[quote:6805a]b. Mark 13:13 – was before Christ even died – so how can this be used as an example of losing a church – age truth that didn’t even exist at this time???!!!

So everything that Jesus taught, should it seem to conflict with Paul's epistles, you reject as 'pre Church Age?'
Paul trumps Christ? If Jesus were in the grave, he'd be turning about now, spinning like the rims on an Escalade.

Like them shiney ones with the part that spins? Those are so cool. The physics in them things is quite complex. haha

c. Rev. 2:7, 11; 3:5 – tribulation passages that deal with tribulation – the church has been long gone – has nothing to do with the body of Christ – context is Jewish churches in the tribulation
What specious garbage. John's Apocalypsis is NOT chronological, a fact that can be proved in numerous ways. John begins with the earthly, then reveals to us first the second heaven, then the third. Read the book free from John Hageeisms and Tim Lahayeisms.

I used to believe all the "rapture theology" and read the "late great planet earth back in the late 70's. When I was becoming orthodox and finally converted I saw things a bit different and here is how:

Those in Noah's flood much like in these days the people "left behind" mocked God and His servant then died by water. The people "caught up" in the flood being carried in the "Ark" are those who inherited the earth, Noah and His family represents "The Church", those that believe.

If there is any definition of "man made doctrine" it is the 16th century fraud called the "rapture" created by two men out of a small girls dream. A complete and utter phantasy. I know it is hard to believe but it is true. Complete fraudulent theology making millions from duped "christians". Wake up people.

As long as one is "in the ark" one will be save. Get out of the ark? Have a nice swim. God has provided the path of salvation, Jesus Christ. His Ark is the Holy Orthodox Church, the Body of the living Christ.

What has Jesus Christ done for me?

Answered my prayer of " God, if you are true, where is your body? Show me God your true body?"

That is why today I am unworthy and do not deserve to speak the word "I am Orthodox Christian".

Your unworthy servant,

Kyril[/quote:6805a]
Amen and amen. Fantastic post.

Also unworthy of the name I carry
Iakovos

 

[Orthodoxy]

I am not a universalist. Christ did not die for all – He died for his people that were chosen from before the foundation of the world. Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

So you believe in predestination then? If we are all Christians because God has 'called us before the foundation of the world' then all those who are NOT, nor will ever be Christians never had the option of choosing salvation,
therefore, Christ did not in fact die for all.

Either He died for all and we are all saved (as our efforts or choices have nothing to do with it) and the universalists are right, or we all have the opportunity to choose or reject Christ and thus obtain the merits of salvation.

Jesus Christ forgave all the sins of the world and saves those who recieve His life (what ever that is in the protestant reformation) in Faith. People can reject or retain the "life" by choice but God, by His own free will, forgave all the sins of mankind ever commited past, present, and future. Without "Life in Christ" a person remains as a dead person who's sins are forgiven. It is living the resurrected life of Christ on the Earth in the Church, His body, that saves. "Life in Christ" is being "Orthodox" in ones faith and "belief".

[quote:b6c8d]What makes you think you could do anything in regards to getting right with God.

[/quote:b6c8d]

What if one has it right and is living right with God being in His Body called the Church? Is it ok to live a life that Christ lived in Prayer and supplication in the community? Fasting? Do we think these works or passions for God?

bbl

Orthodoxy

 

[farley]

Great, thought provoking comments, all...

Ephesians 1:4-5 KJV
(4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
(5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

The above passage is just one of several that I've found in the NT where "I, and I alone" feel that the apostles, and the apostles ONLY, are the ones being referenced here.

For, if ALL of us are predestined, then many conflicts of scripture arise. Such as...

Revelation 22:17 KJV-1611
(17) And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come. And let him that heareth, say, Come. And let him that is a thirst, come. And whosoeuer will, let him take the water of life freely.

When conflicts in scripture arise, we all know what this means don't we...it means that our interpretation of at least one of the passages is flawed...right!?! OR, possibly, even both passages are being interpreted WRONG !!??!! RIGHT!!!!

In Christ,

farley

 

[John the Baptist]

But you had better find out God's method for opening up the rest of the scriptures. You had better start with the latest instructions given by God before you just (go?) anywhere of your choosing.

_______

Where might that be??? Matthew 4:4, 2 Timothy 3:16. You tell God where you are to look? And latest instruction??? See Hebrews 13:20's Everlasting Covenant! What does a Everlasting Covenant mean? Folks today do not have a thread of an idea of what or where that might be!

Another interesting verse that the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to pen from Christ is in 1 Corinthians 14:32. "And the spirits of the prophets [are subject to the prophets]." Does the mind grasp that?

No, God does not change. It takes the whole of the book to be in subjection to the prophets, huh! In Matthew 4:6 we see the devil quoting the promise of protection scripture, to Christ Himself. And we hear the promises without the conditions being quoted daily! Yet, the salvation promises of God all have conditions in front of them! What does baptism mean?

This was taken from the N.T. (Mat. 4:6) And the devils quote came from Psalms 91:11, and almost Word for Word. Christ's CONDITION to the promise came from Deuteronomy 6:16. What might also be of interest to the sincere of heart, is that of what the subject matter was in Deuteronomy 6:4-9??

THINK ABOUT CHRIST QUOTING HIS WORD THERE!! He used the Deut. verse to tell the universe that ALL SCRIPTURE was still valid, and that promises have conditions to be met!

---John

 

[AVBunyan]

What is valid

THINK ABOUT CHRIST QUOTING HIS WORD THERE!! He used the Deut. verse to tell the universe that ALL SCRIPTURE was still valid, and that promises have conditions to be met!---John

Christ was using revealed truth at that time - the OT.

People sure do misuderstand me. I never said OT was not valid. I believe:
2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

I believe it all and I read it all and study it all and get application from all but...but...but I must first get the doctrine that is for me in this day right. How many of you go to Leviticus and sacrifice lambs? Oh, you don't believe the Bible huh? :o

Now isn't that rediculous thinking - the fact that you don't sacrifice a lamb for your sins doesn't mean you don't believe it!!!! :o Sacrificing lambs is not for you today - you can learn from it but it is not doctrinally for you today.

Why do you folks have so much trouble with such simple truths? Why do you confuse what I am saying? Moses did not get the truths that Paul got. Does that make Paul's words more of the word of God than Moses' - of course not but Paul's is more revelant for us today - you can't see this?

Some of you need to go back and reead what I wrote instead of intepreting what you think I mean.

Some of you cannot compare spiritual truths with spritual truths.

Because I don't follow all of Moses doesn't mean I don't believe Moses. There are great truths in Deut and other OT places that do not contradict Paul.

Some of you folks assume too much with very little understanding of where I'm coming from. :-?

I'm not so sure some of you even go back and think through your post before you post it. :roll:

 

[Vic C.]

I'm not so sure some of you even go back and think through your post before you post it

This is one of the main causes of division around here... a lot of hit and run and shooting from the hip. It causes we who are reactionaries to be put on the defensive. :-?

 

[AVBunyan]

I'm not so sure some of you even go back and think through your post before you post it

This is one of the main causes of division around here... a lot of hit and run and shooting from the hip. It causes we who are reactionaries to be put on the defensive. :-?

Thank you

 

[Orthodoxy]

Great, thought provoking comments, all...

Ephesians 1:4-5 KJV
(4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
(5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

The above passage is just one of several that I've found in the NT where "I, and I alone" feel that the apostles, and the apostles ONLY, are the ones being referenced here.

If this is truth then the Church is this represented body of Apostles. Thus Paul is talking about the Church existing both in heaven and on the Earth. Unchanging, unfailing, time transending and pre existant without men, in the nature and form of Jesus Christ. This is why the Church doesnt change at the whim of a person in a tantrum of self proclaimations and declarations. The Holy Orthodox Church is God's representative and authority on the Earth, the organic body of Jesus Christ.

[quote:c65c0]For, if ALL of us are predestined, then many conflicts of scripture arise. Such as...

I agree that is why Paul was writting to the Church in most of his letters. Paul wrote to bishops ie Timothy in the Church. The entire NT is written by, to and for "the Church". Paul was not writting specifically to people in the protestant reformation that claim the name Paul over that of Jesus Christ. Paul is writting to those in the Church who by being 'raptured" into the Church are known and predestine by God because Jesus Christ is the Body. Those "in the Ark", "in Christ" are predestine. If one falls out or never enters the Ark one is not one of those concidered "predestine". Jesus Christ is predestine. I said it about three different ways. Hope ya got it.

Revelation 22:17 KJV-1611
(17) And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come. And let him that heareth, say, Come. And let him that is a thirst, come. And whosoeuer will, let him take the water of life freely.

When conflicts in scripture arise, we all know what this means don't we...it means that our interpretation of at least one of the passages is flawed...right!?! OR, possibly, even both passages are being interpreted WRONG !!??!! RIGHT!!!!

[/quote:c65c0]

Absolutely. This is why the protestant reformation is a spellbinding fraud and myth.

Ephesians 5:23-25,32, For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the CHURCH: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the CHURCH is SUBJECT unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the CHURCH, and gave himself for it; This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the CHURCH.

A bride becomes a wife. The Holy Orthodox Church is the "wife". The Eucharist is the connsumation of the Marriage. Jesus Christ saves His body as He would His wife, the Church. Thus those "in Christ" are saved that much is for sure, a certainty. Those outside this saving body of Jesus Christ may the Lord have mercy.

In Christ,

Orthodoxy

 

[AVBunyan]

Incredible

The Holy Orthodox Church is the "wife". The Eucharist is the connsumation of the Marriage.

Absolute nonsense - private interpretation at its best - couldn't find this in the scriptures if you stayed up all night with an electron microscope. :o

 

[John the Baptist]

Re: Incredible

The Holy Orthodox Church is the "wife". The Eucharist is the connsumation of the Marriage.

Absolute nonsense - private interpretation at its best - couldn't find this in the scriptures if you stayed up all night with an electron microscope. :o

______
But you can read on this site that someone told you to sacrifice lambs??? Wow :roll:
---John

PS: I think perhaps, that Vic was talking about you as well as to you?? :wink: (hi Vic)

 

[farley]

Orthodoxy,

Thanks for your comments. Your take on predestination isn't the same as Calvin's, so there may be merit there!

Of course, this could be a study all to itself!

You obviously have issues with Protestants, which includes me, but thats OK with me because I'm here seeking fresh perspectives (fresh to me I mean...I realize that nothing much is new in this world). I'm almost afraid to ask, Orthodox...what?

My gray hair conceals my youth in Christ. As a two year old Christian, I've got a lot to learn!

I'm vaguely aware of the Greek Orthodox (Hellenic?) and Eastern Orthodox (Russian?), and I am thinking both are pretty similar to RCC, which also may be considered Orthodox to some, or at least have an Orthodox faction under its roof. This is probably just the surface of the Orthodox category, huh? Whew!

Anyway, thanks for your comment!

In Christ,

farley

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Re: Incredible

The Holy Orthodox Church is the "wife". The Eucharist is the connsumation of the Marriage.

Absolute nonsense - private interpretation at its best - couldn't find this in the scriptures if you stayed up all night with an electron microscope. :o

Here you again reveal your ignorance of the Jewish root of the Christian faith. When Jesus proclaimed "This is my blood of the New Covenant," He was using the same words a Jewish groom would use with his potential betrothed

In "Are You Drinking of the Master's Cup?" (Forerunner, March 1999), the author tells of an ancient Hebrew tradition: When a young man and woman were to be betrothed (engaged) for marriage, the groom poured wine into his cup and invited the woman to drink of it. The choice was hers: If she drank from it, she was considered betrothed to the young man. She was agreeing to experience all the things that his life entailed, the good as well as the bad. When the woman drank of the cup, she drank of the marriage covenant and accepted it. Paul refers to this when he tells the church in II Corinthians 11:2: "For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."

http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Topical.show/RTD/CGG/ID/2545/Cup-of-Lord.htm
http://www.yeshuatyisrael.com/messiah_wedding 1.htm

The Eucharist, or Lord's Supper, is the image of the Covenant which Christ, Paul, Peter and John all identify as the Wedding Supper of the Bride and the Bridegroom.

It's amazing the level of swagger you bring to your mistakes.

 

[John the Baptist]

The Eucharist, or Lord's Supper, is the image of the Covenant which Christ, Paul, Peter and John all identify as the Wedding Supper of the Bride and the Bridegroom.

It's amazing the level of swagger you bring to your mistakes.
_________________


If you are serious with posting this? You will need other 'Bible verses' that one can use to build on, to give any creditable 'second' thoughts of truth here! Remember that Peter even had a three time vision from the Lord and still [only] knew that he none understood it.

And also.. 'image of the covenant' you say???
John