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Seventh-day Adventist

brakelite,
That can be said about any denomination wanting audience. If we allowed "SDA only" topics censoring opposition to SDA beliefs for the sake of "understanding" we'd be compelled to allow any denomination or belief system the same protection.
I just don't want to go there.
 
RND ;

I appreciate the courage it took to start this thread and the discomfort of managing it. Thank you for this effort. One of the nicest men I ever met was SDA.

1) Do SDAs believe that God created the universe from “nothing’ (i.e. "ex-nihilo" creation) or from Chaotic and/or pre-existing matter?

2) Do SDAs believe that God arbitrarily determines moral law (i.e. what is right from wrong) or that there are eternal truths, i.e. certain moral choices and actions men make and do are inherently "good" and certain things are inherently "wrong"?

3) Can you describe in detail the SDA belief regarding the origin of Lucifer? That is, what do the SDA's believe regarding how Lucifer was created and how he became a "rebel" and the circumstances of Lucifer’s controversy (or ‘war’) in heaven that resulted in his expulsion from heaven?

4) I do believe that the SDAs are correct that there are certain things expected of men for salvation. However, what specific things are expected of mankind, in order to be saved in heaven for eternity.

Thank you RND for your time and effort in offering detailed explanations concerning these questions.

Clearly
eiseviif
 
Clearly said:
RND ;

I appreciate the courage it took to start this thread and the discomfort of managing it. Thank you for this effort. One of the nicest men I ever met was SDA.

1) Do SDAs believe that God created the universe from “nothing’ (i.e. "ex-nihilo" creation) or from Chaotic and/or pre-existing matter?
ex-nihilo.

6. Creation:
God is Creator of all things, and has revealed in Scripture the authentic account of His creative activity. In six days the Lord made "the heaven and the earth" and all living things upon the earth, and rested on the seventh day of that first week. Thus He established the Sabbath as a perpetual memorial of His completed creative work. The first man and woman were made in the image of God as the crowning work of Creation, given dominion over the world, and charged with responsibility to care for it. When the world was finished it was ``very good,'' declaring the glory of God. (Gen. 1; 2; Ex. 20:8-11; Ps. 19:1-6; 33:6, 9; 104; Heb. 11:3.)

2) Do SDAs believe that God arbitrarily determines moral law (i.e. what is right from wrong) or that there are eternal truths, i.e. certain moral choices and actions men make and do are inherently "good" and certain things are inherently "wrong"?
God does nothing "arbitrarily."

19. Law of God:
The great principles of God's law are embodied in the Ten Commandments and exemplified in the life of Christ. They express God's love, will, and purposes concerning human conduct and relationships and are binding upon all people in every age. These precepts are the basis of God's covenant with His people and the standard in God's judgment. Through the agency of the Holy Spirit they point out sin and awaken a sense of need for a Saviour. Salvation is all of grace and not of works, but its fruitage is obedience to the Commandments. This obedience develops Christian character and results in a sense of well-being. It is an evidence of our love for the Lord and our concern for our fellow men. The obedience of faith demonstrates the power of Christ to transform lives, and therefore strengthens Christian witness. (Ex. 20:1-17; Ps. 40:7, 8; Matt. 22:36-40; Deut. 28:1-14; Matt. 5:17-20; Heb. 8:8-10; John 15:7-10; Eph. 2:8-10; 1 John 5:3; Rom. 8:3, 4; Ps. 19:7-14.)

3) Can you describe in detail the SDA belief regarding the origin of Lucifer? That is, what do the SDA's believe regarding how Lucifer was created and how he became a "rebel" and the circumstances of Lucifer’s controversy (or ‘war’) in heaven that resulted in his expulsion from heaven?
Satan, who was once called Lucifer, rebelled for unknown reasons. That is why it is called the "mystery of iniquity." Satan was once the third highest ranking created angel in heaven, the covering cherub.

8. Great Controversy:
All humanity is now involved in a great controversy between Christ and Satan regarding the character of God, His law, and His sovereignty over the universe. This conflict originated in heaven when a created being, endowed with freedom of choice, in self-exaltation became Satan, God's adversary, and led into rebellion a portion of the angels. He introduced the spirit of rebellion into this world when he led Adam and Eve into sin. This human sin resulted in the distortion of the image of God in humanity, the disordering of the created world, and its eventual devastation at the time of the worldwide flood. Observed by the whole creation, this world became the arena of the universal conflict, out of which the God of love will ultimately be vindicated. To assist His people in this controversy, Christ sends the Holy Spirit and the loyal angels to guide, protect, and sustain them in the way of salvation. (Rev. 12:4-9; Isa. 14:12-14; Eze. 28:12-18; Gen. 3; Rom. 1:19-32; 5:12-21; 8:19-22; Gen. 6-8; 2 Peter 3:6; 1 Cor. 4:9; Heb. 1:14.)

4) I do believe that the SDAs are correct that there are certain things expected of men for salvation. However, what specific things are expected of mankind, in order to be saved in heaven for eternity.

10. Experience of Salvation:
In infinite love and mercy God made Christ, who knew no sin, to be sin for us, so that in Him we might be made the righteousness of God. Led by the Holy Spirit we sense our need, acknowledge our sinfulness, repent of our transgressions, and exercise faith in Jesus as Lord and Christ, as Substitute and Example. This faith which receives salvation comes through the divine power of the Word and is the gift of God's grace. Through Christ we are justified, adopted as God's sons and daughters, and delivered from the lordship of sin. Through the Spirit we are born again and sanctified; the Spirit renews our minds, writes God's law of love in our hearts, and we are given the power to live a holy life. Abiding in Him we become partakers of the divine nature and have the assurance of salvation now and in the judgment. (2 Cor. 5:17-21; John 3:16; Gal. 1:4; 4:4-7; Titus 3:3-7; John 16:8; Gal. 3:13, 14; 1 Peter 2:21, 22; Rom. 10:17; Luke 17:5; Mark 9:23, 24; Eph. 2:5-10; Rom. 3:21-26; Col. 1:13, 14; Rom. 8:14-17; Gal. 3:26; John 3:3-8; 1 Peter 1:23; Rom. 12:2; Heb. 8:7-12; Eze. 36:25-27; 2 Peter 1:3, 4; Rom. 8:1-4; 5:6-10.)

Thank you RND for your time and effort in offering detailed explanations concerning these questions.
You're welcome.
 
RND, thank you for your answers:

Clearly asked : Do SDAs believe that God arbitrarily determines moral law (i.e. what is right from wrong) or that there are eternal truths, i.e. certain moral choices and actions men make and do are inherently "good" and certain things are inherently "wrong"?

RND responded : God does nothing "arbitrarily."

By this explanation, do you mean that there ARE eternal moral truths, or does God determine what is morally right and wrong?


Clearly asked : Can you describe in detail the SDA belief regarding the origin of Lucifer? That is, what do the SDA's believe regarding how Lucifer was created and how he became a "rebel" and the circumstances of Lucifer’s controversy (or ‘war’) in heaven that resulted in his expulsion from heaven?

RND responded : Satan, who was once called Lucifer, rebelled for unknown reasons.

By this, do you mean that the SDA has no official doctrine as to why the archangel Lucifer rebelled? Do they have any doctrine or data as to the origin of the Character Lucifer beyond recognizing that he existed in heaven? Do they have any doctrine or data as to Lucifer's motive for being and remaining and enemy to God?


Regarding SDA salvation and what it takes to be "saved" in heaven for eternity in SDA doctrines.
Can you describe in detail what repentance means in SDA theology and how it is accomplished?

Again, I thank you for your time and effort.

Clearly
 
Clearly said:
By this explanation, do you mean that there ARE eternal moral truths, or does God determine what is morally right and wrong?
The law of God is a reflection of God's character. God is eternal. So these truths are eternal moral truths.

[quote:4rc6y3xz]Clearly asked : Can you describe in detail the SDA belief regarding the origin of Lucifer? That is, what do the SDA's believe regarding how Lucifer was created and how he became a "rebel" and the circumstances of Lucifer’s controversy (or ‘war’) in heaven that resulted in his expulsion from heaven?

RND responded : Satan, who was once called Lucifer, rebelled for unknown reasons.

By this, do you mean that the SDA has no official doctrine as to why the archangel Lucifer rebelled? [/quote:4rc6y3xz] Yes. The Bible itself has no stated reason for why Satan rebelled. Notice that once Satan rebelled he was no longer called Lucifer.

Do they have any doctrine or data as to the origin of the Character Lucifer beyond recognizing that he existed in heaven? Do they have any doctrine or data as to Lucifer's motive for being and remaining and enemy to God?
I believe the Spirit of Prophecy, Ellen G. White has commented on these traits of Satan.

Regarding SDA salvation and what it takes to be "saved" in heaven for eternity in SDA doctrines.
Can you describe in detail what repentance means in SDA theology and how it is accomplished?

Steps to Christ, by Ellen G White, Chapter 3 - Repentance

How shall a man be just with God? How shall the sinner be made righteous? It is only through Christ that we can be brought into harmony with God, with holiness; but how are we to come to Christ? Many are asking the same question as did the multitude on the Day of Pentecost, when, convicted of sin, they cried out, "What shall we do?" The first word of Peter's answer was, "Repent." Acts 2:37, 38. At another time, shortly after, he said, "Repent, . . . and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out." Acts 3:19.

Repentance includes sorrow for sin and a turning away from it. We shall not renounce sin unless we see its sinfulness; until we turn away from it in heart, there will be no real change in the life.

There are many who fail to understand the true nature of repentance. Multitudes sorrow that they have sinned and even make an outward reformation because they fear that their wrongdoing will bring suffering upon themselves. But this is not repentance in the Bible sense. They lament the suffering rather than the sin. Such was the grief of Esau when he saw that the birthright was lost to him forever. Balaam, terrified by the angel standing in his pathway with drawn sword, acknowledged his guilt lest he should lose his life; but there was no genuine repentance for sin, no conversion of purpose, no abhorrence of evil. Judas Iscariot, after betraying his Lord, exclaimed, "I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood." Matthew 27:4.

The confession was forced from his guilty soul by an awful sense of condemnation and a fearful looking for of judgment. The consequences that were to result to him filled him with terror, but there was no deep, heartbreaking grief in his soul, that he had betrayed the spotless Son of God and denied the Holy One of Israel. Pharaoh, when suffering under the judgments of God, acknowledged his sin in order to escape further punishment, but returned to his defiance of Heaven as soon as the plagues were stayed. These all lamented the results of sin, but did not sorrow for the sin itself.

But when the heart yields to the influence of the Spirit of God, the conscience will be quickened, and the sinner will discern something of the depth and sacredness of God's holy law, the foundation of His government in heaven and on earth. The "Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world," illumines the secret chambers of the soul, and the hidden things of darkness are made manifest. John 1:9. Conviction takes hold upon the mind and heart. The sinner has a sense of the righteousness of Jehovah and feels the terror of appearing, in his own guilt and uncleanness, before the Searcher of hearts. He sees the love of God, the beauty of holiness, the joy of purity; he longs to be cleansed and to be restored to communion with Heaven.

The prayer of David after his fall, illustrates the nature of true sorrow for sin. His repentance was sincere and deep. There was no effort to palliate his guilt; no desire to escape the judgment threatened, inspired his prayer. David saw the enormity of his transgression; he saw the defilement of his soul; he loathed his sin. It was not for pardon only that he prayed, but for purity of heart. He longed for the joy of holiness--to be restored to harmony and communion with God. This was the language of his soul:

"Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven,
whose sin is covered.
Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord
imputeth not iniquity,
And in whose spirit there is no guile."
Psalm 32:1, 2.

"Have mercy upon me, O God, according to
Thy loving-kindness:
According unto the multitude of Thy tender
mercies blot out my transgressions. . . .
For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my
sin is ever before me. . . .
Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean:
wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. . . .
Create in me a clean heart, O God;
And renew a right spirit within me.
Cast me not away from Thy presence;
And take not Thy Holy Spirit from me.
Restore unto me the joy of Thy salvation;
And uphold me with Thy free spirit. . . .
Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, Thou
God of my salvation:
And my tongue shall sing aloud of Thy
righteousness." Psalm 51:1-14.

A repentance such as this, is beyond the reach of our own power to accomplish; it is obtained only from Christ, who ascended up on high and has given gifts unto men.

Just here is a point on which many may err, and hence they fail of receiving the help that Christ desires to give them. They think that they cannot come to Christ unless they first repent, and that repentance prepares for the forgiveness of their sins. It is true that repentance does precede the forgiveness of sins; for it is only the broken and contrite heart that will feel the need of a Saviour. But must the sinner wait till he has repented before he can come to Jesus? Is repentance to be made an obstacle between the sinner and the Saviour?

The Bible does not teach that the sinner must repent before he can heed the invitation of Christ, "Come unto Me, all ye that labor and are heavy-laden, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28. It is the virtue that goes forth from Christ, that leads to genuine repentance. Peter made the matter clear in his statement to the Israelites when he said, "Him hath God exalted with His right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins." Acts 5:31. We can no more repent without the Spirit of Christ to awaken the conscience than we can be pardoned without Christ.

Christ is the source of every right impulse. He is the only one that can implant in the heart enmity against sin. Every desire for truth and purity, every conviction of our own sinfulness, is an evidence that His Spirit is moving upon our hearts.

Jesus has said, "I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Me." John 12:32. Christ must be revealed to the sinner as the Saviour dying for the sins of the world; and as we behold the Lamb of God upon the cross of Calvary, the mystery of redemption begins to unfold to our minds and the goodness of God leads us to repentance. In dying for sinners, Christ manifested a love that is incomprehensible; and as the sinner beholds this love, it softens the heart, impresses the mind, and inspires contrition in the soul.

It is true that men sometimes become ashamed of their sinful ways, and give up some of their evil habits, before they are conscious that they are being drawn to Christ. But whenever they make an effort to reform, from a sincere desire to do right, it is the power of Christ that is drawing them. An influence of which they are unconscious works upon the soul, and the conscience is quickened, and the outward life is amended. And as Christ draws them to look upon His cross, to behold Him whom their sins have pierced, the commandment comes home to the conscience. The wickedness of their life, the deep-seated sin of the soul, is revealed to them. They begin to comprehend something of the righteousness of Christ, and exclaim, "What is sin, that it should require such a sacrifice for the redemption of its victim? Was all this love, all this suffering, all this humiliation, demanded, that we might not perish, but have everlasting life?"

The sinner may resist this love, may refuse to be drawn to Christ; but if he does not resist he will be drawn to Jesus; a knowledge of the plan of salvation will lead him to the foot of the cross in repentance for his sins, which have caused the sufferings of God's dear Son.

The same divine mind that is working upon the things of nature is speaking to the hearts of men and creating an inexpressible craving for something they have not. The things of the world cannot satisfy their longing. The Spirit of God is pleading with them to seek for those things that alone can give peace and rest--the grace of Christ, the joy of holiness. Through influences seen and unseen, our Saviour is constantly at work to attract the minds of men from the unsatisfying pleasures of sin to the infinite blessings that may be theirs in Him. To all these souls, who are vainly seeking to drink from the broken cisterns of this world, the divine message is addressed, "Let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Revelation 22:17.

You who in heart long for something better than this world can give, recognize this longing as the voice of God to your soul. Ask Him to give you repentance, to reveal Christ to you in His infinite love, in His perfect purity. In the Saviour's life the principles of God's law--love to God and man--were perfectly exemplified. Benevolence, unselfish love, was the life of His soul. It is as we behold Him, as the light from our Saviour falls upon us, that we see the sinfulness of our own hearts.

We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. Then we shall know that our own righteousness is indeed as filthy rags, and that the blood of Christ alone can cleanse us from the defilement of sin, and renew our hearts in His own likeness.

End of post 1
 
Post 2

One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ.

When the prophet Daniel beheld the glory surrounding the heavenly messenger that was sent unto him, he was overwhelmed with a sense of his own weakness and imperfection. Describing the effect of the wonderful scene, he says, "There remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength." Daniel 10:8. The soul thus touched will hate its selfishness, abhor its self-love, and will seek, through Christ's righteousness, for the purity of heart that is in harmony with the law of God and the character of Christ.

Paul says that as "touching the righteousness which is in the law"--as far as outward acts were concerned--he was "blameless" (Philippians 3:6); but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned, he saw himself a sinner. Judged by the letter of the law as men apply it to the outward life, he had abstained from sin; but when he looked into the depths of its holy precepts, and saw himself as God saw him, he bowed in humiliation and confessed his guilt. He says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Romans 7:9. When he saw the spiritual nature of the law, sin appeared in its true hideousness, and his self-esteem was gone.

God does not regard all sins as of equal magnitude; there are degrees of guilt in His estimation, as well as in that of man; but however trifling this or that wrong act may seem in the eyes of men, no sin is small in the sight of God. Man's judgment is partial, imperfect; but God estimates all things as they really are. The drunkard is despised and is told that his sin will exclude him from heaven; while pride, selfishness, and covetousness too often go unrebuked. But these are sins that are especially offensive to God; for they are contrary to the benevolence of His character, to that unselfish love which is the very atmosphere of the unfallen universe. He who falls into some of the grosser sins may feel a sense of his shame and poverty and his need of the grace of Christ; but pride feels no need, and so it closes the heart against Christ and the infinite blessings He came to give.

The poor publican who prayed, "God be merciful to me a sinner" (Luke 18:13), regarded himself as a very wicked man, and others looked upon him in the same light; but he felt his need, and with his burden of guilt and shame he came before God, asking for His mercy. His heart was open for the Spirit of God to do its gracious work and set him free from the power of sin. The Pharisee's boastful, self-righteous prayer showed that his heart was closed against the influence of the Holy Spirit. Because of his distance from God, he had no sense of his own defilement, in contrast with the perfection of the divine holiness. He felt no need, and he received nothing.

If you see your sinfulness, do not wait to make yourself better. How many there are who think they are not good enough to come to Christ. Do you expect to become better through your own efforts? "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil." Jeremiah 13:23. There is help for us only in God. We must not wait for stronger persuasions, for better opportunities, or for holier tempers. We can do nothing of ourselves. We must come to Christ just as we are.

But let none deceive themselves with the thought that God, in His great love and mercy, will yet save even the rejecters of His grace. The exceeding sinfulness of sin can be estimated only in the light of the cross. When men urge that God is too good to cast off the sinner, let them look to Calvary. It was because there was no other way in which man could be saved, because without this sacrifice it was impossible for the human race to escape from the defiling power of sin, and be restored to communion with holy beings,--impossible for them again to become partakers of spiritual life,--it was because of this that Christ took upon Himself the guilt of the disobedient and suffered in the sinner's stead. The love and suffering and death of the Son of God all testify to the terrible enormity of sin and declare that there is no escape from its power, no hope of the higher life, but through the submission of the soul to Christ.

The impenitent sometimes excuse themselves by saying of professed Christians, "I am as good as they are. They are no more self-denying, sober, or circumspect in their conduct than I am. They love pleasure and self-indulgence as well as I do." Thus they make the faults of others an excuse for their own neglect of duty. But the sins and defects of others do not excuse anyone, for the Lord has not given us an erring human pattern. The spotless Son of God has been given as our example, and those who complain of the wrong course of professed Christians are the ones who should show better lives and nobler examples. If they have so high a conception of what a Christian should be, is not their own sin so much the greater? They know what is right, and yet refuse to do it.

Beware of procrastination. Do not put off the work of forsaking your sins and seeking purity of heart through Jesus. Here is where thousands upon thousands have erred to their eternal loss. I will not here dwell upon the shortness and uncertainty of life; but there is a terrible danger--a danger not sufficiently understood--in delaying to yield to the pleading voice of God's Holy Spirit, in choosing to live in sin; for such this delay really is. Sin, however small it may be esteemed, can be indulged in only at the peril of infinite loss. What we do not overcome, will overcome us and work out our destruction.

Adam and Eve persuaded themselves that in so small a matter as eating of the forbidden fruit there could not result such terrible consequences as God had declared. But this small matter was the transgression of God's immutable and holy law, and it separated man from God and opened the floodgates of death and untold woe upon our world. Age after age there has gone up from our earth a continual cry of mourning, and the whole creation groaneth and travaileth together in pain as a consequence of man's disobedience. Heaven itself has felt the effects of his rebellion against God. Calvary stands as a memorial of the amazing sacrifice required to atone for the transgression of the divine law. Let us not regard sin as a trivial thing.

Every act of transgression, every neglect or rejection of the grace of Christ, is reacting upon yourself; it is hardening the heart, depraving the will, benumbing the understanding, and not only making you less inclined to yield, but less capable of yielding, to the tender pleading of God's Holy Spirit.

Many are quieting a troubled conscience with the thought that they can change a course of evil when they choose; that they can trifle with the invitations of mercy, and yet be again and again impressed. They think that after doing despite to the Spirit of grace, after casting their influence on the side of Satan, in a moment of terrible extremity they can change their course. But this is not so easily done. The experience, the education, of a lifetime, has so thoroughly molded the character that few then desire to receive the image of Jesus.

Even one wrong trait of character, one sinful desire, persistently cherished, will eventually neutralize all the power of the gospel. Every sinful indulgence strengthens the soul's aversion to God. The man who manifests an infidel hardihood, or a stolid indifference to divine truth, is but reaping the harvest of that which he has himself sown. In all the Bible there is not a more fearful warning against trifling with evil than the words of the wise man that the sinner "shall be holden with the cords of his sins." Proverbs 5:22.

Christ is ready to set us free from sin, but He does not force the will; and if by persistent transgression the will itself is wholly bent on evil, and we do not desire to be set free, if we will not accept His grace, what more can He do? We have destroyed ourselves by our determined rejection of His love. "Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation." "Today if ye will hear His voice, harden not your hearts." 2 Corinthians 6:2; Hebrews 3:7, 8.

"Man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart"--the human heart, with its conflicting emotions of joy and sorrow; the wandering, wayward heart, which is the abode of so much impurity and deceit. 1 Samuel 16:7. He knows its motives, its very intents and purposes. Go to Him with your soul all stained as it is. Like the psalmist, throw its chambers open to the all-seeing eye, exclaiming, "Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: and see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting." Psalm 139: 23, 24.

Many accept an intellectual religion, a form of godliness, when the heart is not cleansed. Let it be your prayer, "Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me." Psalm 51:10. Deal truly with your own soul. Be as earnest, as persistent, as you would be if your mortal life were at stake. This is a matter to be settled between God and your own soul, settled for eternity. A supposed hope, and nothing more, will prove your ruin.

Study God's word prayerfully. That word presents before you, in the law of God and the life of Christ, the great principles of holiness, without which "no man shall see the Lord." Hebrews 12:14. It convinces of sin; it plainly reveals the way of salvation. Give heed to it as the voice of God speaking to your soul.

As you see the enormity of sin, as you see yourself as you really are, do not give up to despair. It was sinners that Christ came to save. We have not to reconcile God to us, but--O wondrous love!--God in Christ is "reconciling the world unto Himself." 2 Corinthians 5:19. He is wooing by His tender love the hearts of His erring children. No earthly parent could be as patient with the faults and mistakes of his children, as is God with those He seeks to save. No one could plead more tenderly with the transgressor. No human lips ever poured out more tender entreaties to the wanderer than does He. All His promises, His warnings, are but the breathing of unutterable love.

When Satan comes to tell you that you are a great sinner, look up to your Redeemer and talk of His merits. That which will help you is to look to His light. Acknowledge your sin, but tell the enemy that "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners" and that you may be saved by His matchless love. 1 Timothy 1:15. Jesus asked Simon a question in regard to two debtors. One owed his lord a small sum, and the other owed him a very large sum; but he forgave them both, and Christ asked Simon which debtor would love his lord most. Simon answered, "He to whom he forgave most." Luke 7:43. We have been great sinners, but Christ died that we might be forgiven. The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf. Those to whom He has forgiven most will love Him most, and will stand nearest to His throne to praise Him for His great love and infinite sacrifice. It is when we most fully comprehend the love of God that we best realize the sinfulness of sin. When we see the length of the chain that was let down for us, when we understand something of the infinite sacrifice that Christ has made in our behalf, the heart is melted with tenderness and contrition.

Again, I thank you for your time and effort.

No sweat.
 
1) SDA DOCTRINE CONCERNING PRE-EARTH HEAVEN - There is a great deal of early Judao-Christian literature where christians describe conditions regarding this time and place and conditions there. Did God give the prophet Ellen G white any revelation concerning this time period beyond what other christians can read in the biblical and ancient historical literature? If so, would you describe this data?



2) SDA DOCTRINE CONCERNING LUCIFER
Clearly asked : Can you describe in detail the SDA belief regarding the origin of Lucifer? That is, what do the SDA's believe regarding how Lucifer was created and how he became a "rebel" and the circumstances of Lucifer’s controversy (or ‘war’) in heaven that resulted in his expulsion from heaven?

RND responded : Satan, who was once called Lucifer, rebelled for unknown reasons.

Clear asked for Clarification : By this, do you mean that the SDA has no official doctrine as to why the archangel Lucifer rebelled?

RND’s response : Yes. The Bible itself has no stated reason for why Satan rebelled. Notice that once Satan rebelled he was no longer called Lucifer.
I need to ask for more clarification. The early judao-christian literature has so much data regarding this theme that I had wanted to compare SDA doctrine with the Judao-christian ancient literature. So, if you are saying the SDA have no data as to why Lucifer became Satan, did God give the prophet Ellen G. white ANY any additional doctrine that I could compare with ancient christian doctrines regarding Satan’s specific enmity towards Adam? Most of christianity assumes Lucifer has enmity towards God and men. Do the SDA have ANY additional data as to WHY he has enmity?

Did God give the Prophetess Ellen White ANY revelation in regards to these themes? Did God give the prophet Ellen G. White any revelation that might add significantly to one’s understanding as to what happened BEFORE EDEN between God / Jesus / Adam / Lucifer or other spirits which might explain Satan’s Origin or his Enmity and his motives and his own plans?

Can you be specific regarding anything Ellen G. White might have said that helps us understand any of these issues regarding Lucifer? Thank you RND for any specific information you can provide me in regards to these doctrines. There is just so much available in early Christian literature that I had hoped to compare SDA doctrine to early Christian and Jewish literature. Thank you.



3) SDA DOCTRINE CONCERNING CREATION OF SPIRITS IN LIVING BEINGS
Thank you for the clarification that SDA’s believe in creation of the universe from “nothingâ€. Does SDA doctrine also teach that God creates the individual spirits of all angels and all mankind (and all other beings that might have spirits) from absolutely “nothingâ€? Did God reveal anything to Ellen G. White regarding the nature of the creation of man’s spirit? Is there any SDA doctrine regarding WHEN God creates the spirit? That is, did God reveal to Ellen G. White that Spirits are created anciently and then await being placed into bodies at the time of their birth, or did God reveal to Ellen G. White that spirits are created at the instant of birth or some other manner? Is there SDA doctrine regarding these time periods and themes? Again, thank you for any specific information you can give me.




4) SDA DOCTRINE CONCERNING THE ATONEMENT OF JESUS
Does the SDA doctrine teach that absolutlely ALL mankind must accept Jesus within mortality in order to avoid punishment for their sins? Are there ANY exceptions? Again, thanks for the information.




5) SDA REGARDING REPENTANCE AND FREE WILL
Thank you for the information that had to do with repentance. I need more clarification.
RND said :
Christ is the source of every right impulse. He is the only one that can implant in the heart enmity against sin. Every desire for truth and purity, every conviction of our own sinfulness, is an evidence that His Spirit is moving upon our hearts......But whenever they make an effort to reform, from a sincere desire to do right, it is the power of Christ that is drawing them....â€
Such statements seem to give the impression that “Christ is the source of every right impulseâ€. That is, does SDA doctrine then deny that Man may have his own impulses to do “right†or good things? I am wondering about your description and it’s relationship to “free willâ€. For example, you say “If you see your sinfulness, do not wait to make yourself betterâ€. In SDA doctrine is there “free will†within man that, (separately from God’s influence), may chose to to “right†or “goodâ€? Did God give specific revelation to Ellen G. White that might clarify this question?

RND said :
“But the sins and defects of others do not excuse anyone, for the Lord has not given us an erring human pattern. The spotless Son of God has been given as our example, and those who complain of the wrong course of professed Christians are the ones who should show better lives and nobler examples. If they have so high a conception of what a Christian should be, is not their own sin so much the greater?â€
What IS the relationship to WORKS to FAITH in SDA doctrine?


Thank you for your information RND

Clearly
 
prough91 said:
How does one know that Satan was the third ranking angel in Heaven? Not arguing, just curious.
Isaiah 14 tells us that Satan once had a throne in heaven.

Isa 14:12 ¶ How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

This means that Satan had desired to exalt his position above the stars (angels - see Rev. Rev 1:20) of heaven. So having a throne in heaven means that Satan had to have been much higher than any other created beings. So that means to me that only God and Jesus Christ were above that position of Satan.

He was also the covering cherub.

Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

This hearkens to the cherubs that were on the Ark of the Tabernacle. So we can infer that Satan, before he fell, had a very great position in the heavenly courts.

http://www.cameronlaw.com/study/167.php
 
RND said:
prough91 said:
How does one know that Satan was the third ranking angel in Heaven? Not arguing, just curious.
Isaiah 14 tells us that Satan once had a throne in heaven.

Isa 14:12 ¶ How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

This means that Satan had desired to exalt his position above the stars (angels - see Rev. Rev 1:20) of heaven.

He was also the covering cherub.

Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

This hearkens to the cherubs that were on the Ark of the Tabernacle. So we can infer that Satan, before he fell, had a very great position in the heavenly courts.
Yes, sir, I realize that, I just wanted to know where the third ranked came from?
 
Clearly said:
1) SDA DOCTRINE CONCERNING PRE-EARTH HEAVEN - There is a great deal of early Judao-Christian literature where christians describe conditions regarding this time and place and conditions there. Did God give the prophet Ellen G white any revelation concerning this time period beyond what other christians can read in the biblical and ancient historical literature?
Yes, I believe God gave this prophet a special insight.
If so, would you describe this data?
How about reading it yourself? This is better than me explaining it.

The Story of Patriarchs and Prophets As Illustrated in the Lives of Holy Men of Old - Ellen G. White

I need to ask for more clarification. The early judao-christian literature has so much data regarding this theme that I had wanted to compare SDA doctrine with the Judao-christian ancient literature. So, if you are saying the SDA have no data as to why Lucifer became Satan, did God give the prophet Ellen G. white ANY any additional doctrine that I could compare with ancient christian doctrines regarding Satan’s specific enmity towards Adam?
Well I don't know that there is anyone that can fully explain the "mystery" of iniquity quite frankly. I mean if Paul couldn't do it and he knew all things in heaven and earth pertaining to God I don't know that anyone can.

However, I think Mrs. White gives a good explanation in chapter one of the above referenced book.

Most of christianity assumes Lucifer has enmity towards God and men. Do the SDA have ANY additional data as to WHY he has enmity?
Again, I would examine the above work.

Did God give the Prophetess Ellen White ANY revelation in regards to these themes?
Yes, I believe God gave EGW special insight into many things pertaining to scripture and history.

Did God give the prophet Ellen G. White any revelation that might add significantly to one’s understanding as to what happened BEFORE EDEN between God / Jesus / Adam / Lucifer or other spirits which might explain Satan’s Enmity and his motives and his own plans?
Well, again I think you are asking if EGW can explain the "mystery of iniquity" and I believe she does a very good job of giving us a picture of the fall of Satan.

Little by little Lucifer came to indulge the desire for self-exaltation. The Scripture says, "Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness." Ezekiel 28:17. "Thou hast said in thine heart, . . . I will exalt my throne above the stars of God. . . . I will be like the Most High." Isaiah 14:13, 14. Though all his glory was from God, this mighty angel came to regard it as pertaining to himself. Not content with his position, though honored above the heavenly host, he ventured to covet homage due alone to the Creator. Instead of seeking to make God supreme in the affections and allegiance of all created beings, it was his endeavor to secure their service and loyalty to himself. And coveting the glory with which the infinite Father had invested His Son, this prince of angels aspired to power that was the prerogative of Christ alone.

Now the perfect harmony of heaven was broken. Lucifer's disposition to serve himself instead of his Creator aroused a feeling of apprehension when observed by those who considered that theglory of God should be supreme. In heavenly council the angels pleaded with Lucifer. The Son of God presented before him the greatness, the goodness, and the justice of the Creator, and the sacred, unchanging nature of His law. God Himself had established the order of heaven; and in departing from it, Lucifer would dishonor his Maker and bring ruin upon himself. But the warning, given in infinite love and mercy, only aroused a spirit of resistance. Lucifer allowed his jealousy of Christ to prevail, and became the more determined.


Can you be specific regarding anything Ellen G. White might have said that helps us understand any of these issues regarding Lucifer? Thank you RND for any specific information you can provide me in regards to these doctrines. There is just so much available in early Christian literature that I had hoped to compare SDA doctrine to early Christian and Jewish literature. Thank you.
You're welcome.

3) SDA DOCTRINE CONCERNING CREATION OF SPIRITS IN LIVING BEINGS
Thank you for the clarification that SDA’s believe in creation of the universe from “nothingâ€. Does SDA doctrine also teach that God creates the individual spirits of all angels and all mankind (and all other beings that might have spirits) from absolutely “nothingâ€?
No. Man doe not possess a separate "spirit" of the natural body. Most religions of the world believe this Greek notion of the "anthropomorphic dualism" of man. The Bible does not teach this. Man is made up of dust and the breath of God.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Did God reveal anything to Ellen G. White regarding the nature of the creation of man’s spirit?
Yes. Of course the Bible does as well.

Is there any SDA doctrine regarding WHEN God creates the spirit?
Yes. The Bible. The Torah.

That is, did God reveal to Ellen G. White that Spirits are created anciently and then await being placed into bodies at the time of their birth, or did God reveal to Ellen G. While that spirits are created at the instant of birth or some other manner?
No. That is a message unique to only Joseph Smith.

Again, thank you for any specific information you can give me.
You're welcome.

4) SDA DOCTRINE CONCERNING THE ATONEMENT OF JESUS
Does the SDA doctrine teach that absolutlely ALL mankind must accept Jesus within mortality in order to avoid punishment for their sins? Are there ANY exceptions? Again, thanks for the information.
SdA doctrine believes that there will be many in heaven that never heard the name Jesus Christ but lived there lives in accordance with His teachings and life to the best of there ability according to the light they were given.

5) SDA REGARDING REPENTANCE AND FREE WILL

Such statements seem to give the impression that “Christ is the source of every right impulseâ€. That is, does SDA doctrine then deny that Man may have his own impulses to do “right†or good things?
Yes. All of our good works are like filthy (menstrual) rags.

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Man may indeed do good works and things towards others, no doubt. Jesus Christ is the source of every good work done on earth.

I am wondering about your description and it’s relationship to “free willâ€. For example, you say “If you see your sinfulness, do not wait to make yourself betterâ€. In SDA doctrine is there “free will†within man that, separately from God’s influence, may chose to to “right†or “goodâ€?
According to scripture? No.

Did God give specific revelation to Ellen G. White that might clarify this question?
Yeah, and He gave each and every Christian the same ability to understand that without Jesus Christ man can do nothing.

Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

[quote:fue47fr6] RND said :
“But the sins and defects of others do not excuse anyone, for the Lord has not given us an erring human pattern. The spotless Son of God has been given as our example, and those who complain of the wrong course of professed Christians are the ones who should show better lives and nobler examples. If they have so high a conception of what a Christian should be, is not their own sin so much the greater?â€
What IS the relationship to WORKS to FAITH in SDA doctrine? [/quote:fue47fr6] Faith without works is dead. Tell me your faith and I'll show you my faith by my works. Once we become Christians will will joy and enjoy doing good works for others. This might explain why our relatively small protestant denomination has more schools and hospitals than any other protestant denomination in the world.

Thank you for your information RND
You are most welcome.
 
I'm an independent fundamentalist Baptist who taught Christian high school for ten years. We had a few Seventh-Day Adventist students, and their Godly conduct was an embarrassment to most of the Baptists.

One miserable summer in college, I had been a door-to-door salesman, and every Seventh Day Adventist I met acted like a Christian.

I do not agree with many of their doctrines, but Seventh Day Adventists, as a group, have consistently shown themselves to be Christians.
 
POST ONE OF TWO

1) SDA DOCTRINE CONCERNING PRE-EARTH HEAVEN
Clearly asked : There is a great deal of early Judao-Christian literature where christians describe conditions regarding this time and place and conditions there. Did God give the prophet Ellen G white any revelation concerning this time period beyond what other christians can read in the biblical and ancient historical literature? If so, would you describe this data?

RND replied : How about reading it yourself? - (and then offered a link)
RND, I mean no offense, but please do not simply provide a link. If you do not want to answer or if you cannot answer for some other reason, please just tell me. I will NOT be offended.

Clearly asked for clarification : I need to ask for more clarification. The early judao-christian literature has so much data regarding this theme that I had wanted to compare SDA doctrine with the Judao-christian ancient literature. So, if you are saying the SDA have no data as to why Lucifer became Satan, did God give the prophet Ellen G. white ANY any additional doctrine that I could compare with ancient christian doctrines regarding Satan’s specific enmity towards Adam?

RND replied : Well I don't know that there is anyone that can fully explain the "mystery" of iniquity quite frankly. I mean if Paul couldn't do it and he knew all things in heaven and earth pertaining to God I don't know that anyone can.
You are not a historian then. I think your assumption that Paul could not have illuminated the specific question I am referring to is incorrect since such histories were common to early christianity and this is reflected in a great deal of early Judao-Christian literature.

I am simply asking if SDAs also have data regarding this time period.


The early Christianities were able to look upon the future heaven and the current mortal existence in the context of what happened before creation. For example, the Enochian literature (remember, Enoch was NOT removed from the eastern canon as it was from the western canon) gives wonderful details regarding the time when “one from the order of the archangels deviated, together with the division that was under his authority. He thought up the impossible idea, that he might place his throne higher than the clouds which are above the earth, and that he might become equal to my power. And I hurled him out from the height, together with his angels.†(2nd Enoch 29:3-5).

Even the ancient psalms and hymns reflect the doctrines of ancient Christianity just as our modern hymns reflect modern Christian doctrine. The Coptic psalm book relates
“Now as they were warring with each other, they made bold to attack the land of Light, considering themselves capable of conquering it. Yet they know not that what they thought will recoil upon their own heads. But there was a host of angels in the Land of Light which possessed the power to issue forth and overcome the enemy of the Father, whom it pleased that through the Word that he would send, he should subdue the rebels who desired to raise themselves above what was more exalted than they. (The coptic psalm-book - re “Let us worship the spirit of the paraclete Psalm 223 (allberry 9-11) p 328)

In the early gospel of Bartholomew text (part of the body of ascension literature) Lucifer says :
“Allow me to tell you how I was cast down here, and how God made man. “I wandered to and fro in the world, and god said to Michael : Bring me earth...And when Michael had brought them to him, he formed Adam in the east, and gave form to the shapeless earth, and stretched sinews and veins, and united everything into a harmonious whole. And he showed him reverence for his own sake because he was in his image. And Michael also [honored] him. “
This text repeats the same doctrine regarding the fall of Lucifer and the role of the Father, his son, Michael and others in this controversy. These stories were widespread among the ancient Judao-christian literature.

The 4th Century Abbaton history from the 40 day literature (gathered by Timothy from records in the Jerusalem library) repeats the same story of the fall of Lucifer and it’s relationship to the creation of Adam.
‘And when My Father saw his great pride, and that his wickedness and his evil-doing were complete, (had reached their highest pitch) He commanded all the armies of heaven, saying, “Remove the writing [which is] in the hand of the proud one, strip ye off his armor, and cast ye him down upon the earth, for his time hath come. For he is the greatest of them all, (the rebellious angels) he is the head over them and is like a king, and he commandeth them as the general of an army [commandeth his] soldiers; he is the head over them, and their names are written in his hand.†... (4th Century Abbaton)
And the history continues from this point.

Such detailed histories are not merely found in the Enoch literature and the ascension literature and the ancient Christian psalms sung by Christians, but they are repeated many times in a large group of early literature as well. For example, the apocalypse of abraham and cave of treasure histories, the Life of Adam and Eve, the Jewish Haggadah. Even the Quran refers to this same ancient history of Lucifer’s unwillingness to honor Adam and thus confirms it was common history known even among the arabians.

So may of these early christian histories and doctrines are no longer known as christianity has evolved. I had asked about such doctrines because I wondered if the SDA had the same context as the ancients did. One can argue that the early Christianity was in error in their beliefs, but one cannot deny the existence of the doctrine they believed in.






2) REGARDING THE SPIRIT WITHIN MANKIND
Clearly said : “Thank you for the clarification that SDA’s believe in creation of the universe from “nothingâ€. Does SDA doctrine also teach that God creates the individual spirits of all angels and all mankind (and all other beings that might have spirits) from absolutely “nothingâ€?

RND responded : No. Man doe not possess a separate "spirit" of the natural body. ... The Bible does not teach this. Man is made up of dust and the breath of God.
Certainly many christians HAVE used the bible to teach regarding a spirit within man, though you must interpret the biblical text differently than those christians.

So, if I understand correctly, the SDA do NOT believe that man has a spirit that does or can exist separate from the body? This is an interesting theory. Do the SDA believe that there IS no spirit of man independent of the body, or do they believe a spirit is created at the same time the physical body is created?

If the SDA do not believe in the spirit that animates the body of man, then what intelligent will is involved in the choices which men appear to be making in doing either “good†or “evil�





3) REGARDING THE SPIRIT WITHIN MAN - THE SECOND ISSUE
Clearly asked : Did God reveal anything to Ellen G. White regarding the nature of the creation of man’s spirit?

RND responded : Yes. Of course

Clearly asked : Is there any SDA doctrine regarding WHEN God creates the spirit?

RND responded Yes. The Bible. The Torah.
I cannot tell if you are simply being sarcastic or have another reason for not given me data specific to the SDA. You must understand that various Ancient AND modern christianities may have interpreted the biblical texts very differently than the SDA. To simply refer me to “the bible†is a not helpful, but simply deflects my question and wastes time.





4) REGARDING THE PRE-EXISTENCE OF SPIRITS
Clear asked : [did]God reveal to Ellen G. White that Spirits are created anciently and then await being placed into bodies at the time of their birth, or did God reveal to Ellen G. While that spirits are created at the instant of birth or some other manner?

RND claimed : No. That is a message unique to only Joseph Smith.


You are again obsessing on Smith to the point that you are not considering ancient christianity. The doctrine of the existence was extremely common throughout a VAST amount of Judao-Christian literature and belief.

For example : The early Sophia Christi, relates
"All spirits are ageless and equal as to creation, but differ in degrees of power."

This sentiment is a substantial thread woven into so many ancient sacred Jewish and Christian texts. Enoch testifies :

"Write all the souls of men, however many of them are born, for all souls are prepared to eternity before the foundation of the world." (2nd book of Enoch)

The Hebrew Zohar, gives us the same testimony :
"All men before they lived on earth were present in heaven in the identical form they possess in this life, and everything they learn on earth they knew already before they came to this world."

This early Christian and Jewish doctrine of pre-existence of spirits was widespread among other cultures as well. The Egyptian pyramid and coffin texts continue on similar themes without even causing ripples in this doctrine:
"I existed before I was born, when the gods did not exist, when as yet there was no bird trap, when the cattle were not yet lassoed. I was formerly; I was of yesterday, a great one among the great and noble ones."

The fact that this doctrine was ALSO Egyptian means that it was shared by multiple nations and NOT simply the ancient Jews and Christians. (It’s taught very clearly in the Bhagavad Gita as well) Doctrinal correlations are easily made if one is willing to allow the different idiom to speak for itself. For example, Jewish idiom refers to a time :
"when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy." (Job 38:7)
whereas Egyptian personal idiom refers to the same time period :
"Before I was born by hand or born of woman, he created me in the midst of his perfection, which caused to jubilate those who shared in the secrets."
Whether "shouting for joy" or being caused to "jubilate" before being born, the themes of pre-creation occurrences keep repeating themselves.

POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS
 
POST TWO OF TWO

I have to wonder if such constant redundant repetition of this doctrine of pre-creation existence was important to the ancients because it emphasized the realization that knowing who we really are and where we came from is the only thing that can put the present and future into its proper perspective.

For example, in the Christian Clementine Recognitions, the apostle Peter tells the young christian convert Clement about the pre-earth council and plan :
"which He [God the Father] of his own good pleasure announced in the presence of all the first angels which were assembled before Him. Last of all He made man whose real nature, however, is older and for whose sake all this was created."
Perhaps, for such theists, the key to understanding what God is doing with mankind is contained inside of the concept that we are eternally spiritual.

The ancient Judao-Christian expression "from eternity to eternity" was used in similar fashion to how the way the Dead Sea Scrolls used it. In fact, the Jewish Serek Scroll (DSS 2:1), uses the expression me'olam le'olam just as Christian Barnabas uses it (ep 8): "From eons unto the eons" means that "you come out of the eons and you go into the eons." There is an eternity behind you, and an eternity before you.

As I mentioned, much early Christian theology was taught in our earliest hymns. Even today, we still sing doctrines in verse: "mild he lays his glory by... Born that man no more may die" (from Hark the Herald Angels Sing). In a similar manner one can study ancient Christian doctrine by reading their hymns. One of the earliest (if not the earliest) Christian Hymns is "The Pearl". In "The Pearl" the early Christians sang doctrinal scenarios, regarding the per-creation spirits of men.

In the symbolism of a spirit leaving a heavenly home where it’s been nurtured and comes to earth to gain knowledge and testing, the Hymn tells of a youth, nurtured well by his parents and who is given the task of having his glorious robes removed and being sent to a far and mysterious country where he is to obtain a pearl under difficult circumstances. While away, despite warnings, he slumbers and forgets who he is and his glorious past and even, for a time, his purpose of coming to this strange land.

At some point, he is given help and as he reads a letter from his home, he remembers what it is that he is to accomplish here. He remembers his glorious past, his purpose and accomplishes it. Upon his return, his prior glorious robes are placed upon him, and family and friends now bestow accolades upon him, of which he is only then deserving.

Historians discuss this ancient christian doctrine very differently than individuals who do not know how the Christians interpreted and used their texts. R. H. Charles, the premier expert in pseudographia and apocrypha in his great work, The Apocrypha and Pseudapigrapha of the Old Testament , volume 2, says, "The Platonic doctrine of preexistence of souls is here taught. We find that it had already made its way into Jewish thought in Egypt." So in explaining where the christians and Jews GOT this doctrine, he feels it was “through Egypt, Christians and Jews, he says, both adopted this†Even though pre-existent spirits was an Egyptian doctrine, I believe the Jews and Christians possessed this doctrine completely independent of the Egyptians.

The doctrine was accepted and further developed by the great Jewish Historian (and Christian contemporary ) Philo. Josephus indicates it was also an Essene doctrine. You will find it in the Beresheit Rabbah and the Tanhuma , etc. The great Historian Meyer speaks of "The doctrine of preexistence as taught by the Essenes , by Philo , the Talmud and the Cabala". Regarding the Apocalypse of Baruch found in R. H. Charles says, "The multitude of those who should be born was numbered and for that number a place was prepared where the living might dwell."

Such a view is different than many modern christian theology and although most all theologies ask the question: What are we here for then? Such ancient Chrisianities answer the question differently: Some christianities feel that the spirits coming down here was a calamity. Some doctrines felt that we are here in prison. We are being punished. But unlike Origen and some Gnostic schools, the Cabala does not regard life as a fall or exile but as a means of education and a beneficial trial. To pre-creation christians, our time here may be seen as a time of education and probation.

As I quoted earlier, the Hebrew Zohar tells us here: "All men before they lived on earth were present in heaven in the identical form they possess in this life, and everything they learn on earth they knew already before they came to this world." Such doctrines dovetail perfectly with the Talmudic idea of the world as a marshaling area, a way station, while that world above is the true dwelling. We have just left it temporarily to be tested here. "All spirits which are to enter into the body exit from the day of creation of the world until the earth shall pass away." It’s like one of the discovered logia of Jesus, “This life is a bridge. We cross over, but we do not make our home here.†(I had to quote this from memory so it might not be correct - incidentally, this is an islamic saying as well).

If Josephus was correct about pre-existent spirits being an Essene doctrine, one might expect that the dead sea scrolls would also have such doctrine and they do. I quoted earlier, the very powerful passage in the Zadokite Document from the Dead Sea Scrolls tells how God condemned the wicked in the preexistence by not counting them among those chosen. "From of old, from the days of eternity and before they were established, he knew them and abhored their generations. With exactitude he set out their names, but those whom he hated he caused to stray." Typical of this common background to Jews and early Christians is the prayer of Anna in the Pseudo-Philo.
"Hast thou not, O Lord, examined the heart of all generations before thou formedst the world?"
The ancient context for understanding what such statements meant made a different since to those who understood the underlying theology.

In the Secrets of Enoch in the Slavonic Enoch , the Lord says to Enoch,
"Sit down and write the names of those who are not yet born and the places which are prepared for them forever; for all the spirits were prepared before the foundation of the earth." Enoch speaks here, "I swear unto you, my children, that before man was made in the womb of his mother, he was prepared; and how each has sojourned in this age that a man might be tested in the balance while he was here."

Gregory of Nyssa explained "The soul had a previous existence and a life of its own where, even as in this life, it was given its free agency by the Creator. And such as grew weary at doing good entered this life at a disadvantage, having passed the test less satisfactorily than others." Origen , the great Christian theologian, says that this is what the earlier brethren taught. He didn’t believe it, but they taught it and was trying to discourage the doctrine.

Earlier Christians used a pre-mortal existence to explain the fact that we are born into this world it's with unequal advantages Some are born blind, lame, crippled; it's terrible. Some are born into poverty; some into riches. It is the same doctrine of Nyssa: Before we came here life was a test too, and when we passed the test, we came into this world. Our life here is a reward for our performance before we came here. Nyssa uses this doctrine to explain the inequality of people being born in such varying circumstances so as to seem unfair if there was not some prior reason for current conditions. As Nyssa says : "The soul had a previous existence for even as in this life, it was a free agent."

Basilides , also a contemporary, says that suffering in this life is punishment for sins in the preexistence, not by way of denying that there was preexistence, by insisting that the opportunity to suffer here, even martyrdom, is rather a reward earned before, an opportunity for greater glory.

Origen in his early remarks regarding pre-existence of spirits taught that, "The spirit stands for progress and by definition evil is refusal to accept progress. This is the principle of apostasy that you refuse to progress, and when refused progress in the other world, you came here at a lower level. "Learn this one thing," wrote Cyril of Jerusalem , "that before coming to this cosmos, the spirit did not sin, but that we came down sinless here and now. And now we sin by choice." (These two theologians both disagree on whether a spirit sins prior to this earth or not, but they do NOT disagree on the pre-existence OF that spirit.).

This ancient doctrine of pre-creation existence, is integral to the vast amount of Both Christian and Jewish Ascension Literature. Ascension texts exist for many prophets such as Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, Paul, Abraham, etc. The Apocalypse of Abraham is a good example. It belongs to literature that was popular about the time of Christ. G.H. Box suggested Essene origin for it. Later Christianity viewed it much as they did the book of Enoch (which IS still in the eastern Old Testament Canon) and it simply lost favor compared to other literature. Though the slavonic version is perhaps 11th or 12th century, controls suggest it is similar to the oldest accounts (first decades of the second century...). Originally published in russia in 1863, it wasn’t known in the west until 34 years later and published in German by Bonwetsch in 1898.

In these accounts, Abraham is taken into heaven by revelation and speaks with Jehovah and Michael. Jehovah speaking to Abraham says ...
â€I am he who hath been commissioned to loosen Hades, to destroy him who stareth at the dead [/color](an egyptian idiom)"...Arise, Abraham, with courage, go with joy and gladness. I am with you, for the Eternal One has prepared for you honor everlasting,...for behold I am set apart with you and with the generations which have been before prepared, out of you; and with me [Jehovah], Michael blesses you forevermore
.â€

The concept of Abraham being told that he is one of those "chosen" before birth is a difficult concept for religions who do not believe that the spirit existed before birth. For example: For many Christians, the fall of Adam was an “unexpected†occurrence that is very difficult to explain (i.e. if God is omniscient, he should have known the fall was going to happen beforehand). Such literature sheds light on the omniscient’s God’s foresight since Jehovah tells Abraham “I am he who hath been commissioned to loosen Hadesâ€, referring to the lamb slain “from the foundation of the worldâ€. Such literature places the fall of man into a much clearer context.

In such a context, The fall of Adam did not necessitate a hastily prepared “Plan B†by a God who’s original plan was easily scuttled by a Lucifer bent on revenge, but instead, the fall was planned for from the very beginning. Such early Christian literature retains themes of the “divine world council who discussed plans for the creation; the fall; the redemption of man from the fall†(all of which Abraham is privy to see).

For example: The Lord explains to Abraham, "And it came to pass whatever I had determined to be, was already planned before hand in this “council†[Box renders this word "picture", though I think "plan" is a better word], and it stood before me ere it was created." Abraham sees a group of spirits and he asks: “O Lord, mighty and eternal! Who are the people on this side and on that?"

They were, he was told, on the one side "the multitude of the people which have been formerly in existence and which are after thee destined, some for judgment ... and others for vengeance and destruction at the end of the world" (these were some who were to come to earth after Abraham). "But these on the right side of the picture—they are the people set apart for me of the people with Azazel [i.e., “living in the wicked world†according to Box xxvi-xxvii]. Pointing to the other group Jehovah remarks: “These are whom I have ordained to be born of thee and to be called My People."

Such vast amounts of early christian doctrines and literature cannot make sense to a christianity that no longer believes in such doctrines. It is in this way that I wanted to be able to compare the modern SDA doctrines with the ancient christian doctrines. You may certainly claim that the ancient christians and jews that believed in Pre-creation existence of spirits were wrong and try and make the point with any data you can muster, however to claim that the doctrine was unique to Joseph Smith is incorrect.



5) REGARDING THE FREE WILL OF MANKIND
Clearly asked : I am wondering about your description and it’s relationship to “free willâ€. For example, you say “If you see your sinfulness, do not wait to make yourself betterâ€. In SDA doctrine is there “free will†within man that, separately from God’s influence, may chose to to “right†or “goodâ€?

RND answered : According to scripture? No.
Since the SDA’s do not believe that man can choose “right†or “goodâ€, do they believe that manannot choose “error†or ‘bad†either? Who or What is making the choice to do good and evil in SDA theology.?

Clearly
 
Clearly said:
RND, I mean no offense, but please do not simply provide a link. If you do not want to answer or if you cannot answer for some other reason, please just tell me. I will NOT be offended
The answer is long and deserves a detailed response. If you don't want to read it that's fine but I thought the question required more than just a simple one line answer.
You are not a historian then.
No, but I do enjoy history.

I think your assumption that Paul could not have illuminated the specific question I am referring to is incorrect since such histories were common to early christianity and this is reflected in a great deal of early Judao-Christian literature.

I am simply asking if SDAs also have data regarding this time period.
Paul didn't offer any explanation for the "mystery of iniquity" that's why it's a mystery.

The early Christianities were able to look upon the future heaven and the current mortal existence in the context of what happened before creation. For example, the Enochian literature (remember, Enoch was NOT removed from the eastern canon as it was from the western canon) gives wonderful details regarding the time when “one from the order of the archangels deviated, together with the division that was under his authority. He thought up the impossible idea, that he might place his throne higher than the clouds which are above the earth, and that he might become equal to my power. And I hurled him out from the height, together with his angels.†(2nd Enoch 29:3-5).
The book of Enoch is not considered canonical for a number of reasons, I've never read it myself, and I don't necessarily consider it that important. Know why there was iniquity and not understanding the mechanics of frankly have nothing to do with my salvation.
Even the ancient psalms and hymns reflect the doctrines of ancient Christianity just as our modern hymns reflect modern Christian doctrine. The Coptic psalm book relates [quote:3jycex92] “Now as they were warring with each other, they made bold to attack the land of Light, considering themselves capable of conquering it. Yet they know not that what they thought will recoil upon their own heads. But there was a host of angels in the Land of Light which possessed the power to issue forth and overcome the enemy of the Father, whom it pleased that through the Word that he would send, he should subdue the rebels who desired to raise themselves above what was more exalted than they. (The coptic psalm-book - re “Let us worship the spirit of the paraclete Psalm 223 (allberry 9-11) p 328)

In the early gospel of Bartholomew text (part of the body of ascension literature) Lucifer says :
“Allow me to tell you how I was cast down here, and how God made man. “I wandered to and fro in the world, and god said to Michael : Bring me earth...And when Michael had brought them to him, he formed Adam in the east, and gave form to the shapeless earth, and stretched sinews and veins, and united everything into a harmonious whole. And he showed him reverence for his own sake because he was in his image. And Michael also [honored] him. “
This text repeats the same doctrine regarding the fall of Lucifer and the role of the Father, his son, Michael and others in this controversy. These stories were widespread among the ancient Judao-christian literature.

The 4th Century Abbaton history from the 40 day literature (gathered by Timothy from records in the Jerusalem library) repeats the same story of the fall of Lucifer and it’s relationship to the creation of Adam.
‘And when My Father saw his great pride, and that his wickedness and his evil-doing were complete, (had reached their highest pitch) He commanded all the armies of heaven, saying, “Remove the writing [which is] in the hand of the proud one, strip ye off his armor, and cast ye him down upon the earth, for his time hath come. For he is the greatest of them all, (the rebellious angels) he is the head over them and is like a king, and he commandeth them as the general of an army [commandeth his] soldiers; he is the head over them, and their names are written in his hand.†... (4th Century Abbaton)
And the history continues from this point.

Such detailed histories are not merely found in the Enoch literature and the ascension literature and the ancient Christian psalms sung by Christians, but they are repeated many times in a large group of early literature as well. For example, the apocalypse of abraham and cave of treasure histories, the Life of Adam and Eve, the Jewish Haggadah. Even the Quran refers to this same ancient history of Lucifer’s unwillingness to honor Adam and thus confirms it was common history known even among the arabians. [/quote:3jycex92]

So may of these early christian histories and doctrines are no longer known as christianity has evolved. I had asked about such doctrines because I wondered if the SDA had the same context as the ancients did. One can argue that the early Christianity was in error in their beliefs, but one cannot deny the existence of the doctrine they believed in.
The fact that none of these works are referenced in the Gospels or epistles would be a red flag for me. There are a whole host of ancient scriptures that aren't Biblical.

2) REGARDING THE SPIRIT WITHIN MANKIND
[quote:3jycex92] Clearly said : “Thank you for the clarification that SDA’s believe in creation of the universe from “nothingâ€. Does SDA doctrine also teach that God creates the individual spirits of all angels and all mankind (and all other beings that might have spirits) from absolutely “nothingâ€?

RND responded : No. Man doe not possess a separate "spirit" of the natural body. ... The Bible does not teach this. Man is made up of dust and the breath of God.
Certainly many christians HAVE used the bible to teach regarding a spirit within man, though you must interpret the biblical text differently than those christians.[/quote:3jycex92] Yes, apparently.
So, if I understand correctly, the SDA do NOT believe that man has a spirit that does or can exist separate from the body?
Correct.
This is an interesting theory.
It's Biblical.

Do the SDA believe that there IS no spirit of man independent of the body, or do they believe a spirit is created at the same time the physical body is created?
SdA's believe the "spirit" is the breath of God as Gen 2:7 plainly states.

If the SDA do not believe in the spirit that animates the body of man, then what intelligent will is involved in the choices which men appear to be making in doing either “good†or “evil�
That would be the work of the frontal lobes of the human brain.

3) REGARDING THE SPIRIT WITHIN MAN - THE SECOND ISSUE
[quote:3jycex92] Clearly asked : Did God reveal anything to Ellen G. White regarding the nature of the creation of man’s spirit?

RND responded : Yes. Of course

Clearly asked : Is there any SDA doctrine regarding WHEN God creates the spirit?

RND responded Yes. The Bible. The Torah.
I cannot tell if you are simply being sarcastic or have another reason for not given me data specific to the SDA. [/quote:3jycex92] I'm sorry. I was not being sarcastic.

You must understand that various Ancient AND modern christianities may have interpreted the biblical texts very differently than the SDA.
I understand that.

To simply refer me to “the bible†is a not helpful, but simply deflects my question and wastes time.
Well, when I say Bible I'm referring to the 66 books of the Torah , Tanakh, the Gospels and the Epistles. I know of no other inspired work of God.

I would refer you back to the plainness of Gen. 2:7.





4) REGARDING THE PRE-EXISTENCE OF SPIRITS
[quote:3jycex92] Clear asked : [did]God reveal to Ellen G. White that Spirits are created anciently and then await being placed into bodies at the time of their birth, or did God reveal to Ellen G. While that spirits are created at the instant of birth or some other manner?

RND claimed : No. That is a message unique to only Joseph Smith.

You are again obsessing on Smith to the point that you are not considering ancient christianity.[/quote:3jycex92] I know of no other denomination that claims "spirits" were made in heaven and waited there until a human body could be made for that spirit to come to earth. Frankly, such a story sounds like something from a bad acid trip. There is nothing within the context of the Holy Writ that even remotely hints at such nonsense.

The doctrine of the existence was extremely common throughout a VAST amount of Judao-Christian literature and belief.
Um, no.
For example : The early Sophia Christi, relates [quote:3jycex92] "All spirits are ageless and equal as to creation, but differ in degrees of power."
[/quote:3jycex92] I have no idea who this woman is and wouldn't bank any of my beliefs on her.

This sentiment is a substantial thread woven into so many ancient sacred Jewish and Christian texts. Enoch testifies :

[quote:3jycex92] "Write all the souls of men, however many of them are born, for all souls are prepared to eternity before the foundation of the world." (2nd book of Enoch)

The Hebrew Zohar, gives us the same testimony :
"All men before they lived on earth were present in heaven in the identical form they possess in this life, and everything they learn on earth they knew already before they came to this world."
[/quote:3jycex92] The Kabbala is occultic literature as far as I'm concerned.

This early Christian and Jewish doctrine of pre-existence of spirits was widespread among other cultures as well. The Egyptian pyramid and coffin texts continue on similar themes without even causing ripples in this doctrine: [quote:3jycex92]"I existed before I was born, when the gods did not exist, when as yet there was no bird trap, when the cattle were not yet lassoed. I was formerly; I was of yesterday, a great one among the great and noble ones."
[/quote:3jycex92] I wouldn't attempt to base any of my knowledge about the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob on anything other than His inspired text. The Egyptians use to put food, grain, drink and murdered relatives in with their dead and guess what happened when the tombs were opened? Everything was right were they left it.

The fact that this doctrine was ALSO Egyptian means that it was shared by multiple nations and NOT simply the ancient Jews and Christians. (It’s taught very clearly in the Bhagavad Gita as well) Doctrinal correlations are easily made if one is willing to allow the different idiom to speak for itself. For example, Jewish idiom refers to a time : [quote:3jycex92] "when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy." (Job 38:7)
whereas Egyptian personal idiom refers to the same time period :
"Before I was born by hand or born of woman, he created me in the midst of his perfection, which caused to jubilate those who shared in the secrets."
Whether "shouting for joy" or being caused to "jubilate" before being born, the themes of pre-creation occurrences keep repeating themselves.[/quote:3jycex92] Again, I wouldn't base any knowledge of God on any other writings than those deemed inspired.
 
Clearly said:
I have to wonder if such constant redundant repetition of this doctrine of pre-creation existence was important to the ancients because it emphasized the realization that knowing who we really are and where we came from is the only thing that can put the present and future into its proper perspective.
If it was "super important" I would imagine the Bible would have some knowledge regarding this doctrine to share. In that idt doesn't then I would have to conclude the Bible would rather have us look forward than backwards.

For example, in the Christian Clementine Recognitions, the apostle Peter tells the young christian convert Clement about the pre-earth council and plan : [quote:2jvfra08]"which He [God the Father] of his own good pleasure announced in the presence of all the first angels which were assembled before Him. Last of all He made man whose real nature, however, is older and for whose sake all this was created."
Perhaps, for such theists, the key to understanding what God is doing with mankind is contained inside of the concept that we are eternally spiritual.[/quote:2jvfra08] Um, I don't think that Peter said this to Clement frankly.

The ancient Judao-Christian expression "from eternity to eternity" was used in similar fashion to how the way the Dead Sea Scrolls used it. In fact, the Jewish Serek Scroll (DSS 2:1), uses the expression me'olam le'olam just as Christian Barnabas uses it (ep 8): "From eons unto the eons" means that "you come out of the eons and you go into the eons." There is an eternity behind you, and an eternity before you.
Yes, there is indeed eternity behind me and eternity before me. There is nothing in the Holy Writ that suggests I existed prior to my birth on earth.

As I mentioned, much early Christian theology was taught in our earliest hymns. Even today, we still sing doctrines in verse: "mild he lays his glory by... Born that man no more may die" (from Hark the Herald Angels Sing). In a similar manner one can study ancient Christian doctrine by reading their hymns. One of the earliest (if not the earliest) Christian Hymns is "The Pearl". In "The Pearl" the early Christians sang doctrinal scenarios, regarding the per-creation spirits of men.
Maybe they did. That doesn't make singing a song of error correct.

In the symbolism of a spirit leaving a heavenly home where it’s been nurtured and comes to earth to gain knowledge and testing, the Hymn tells of a youth, nurtured well by his parents and who is given the task of having his glorious robes removed and being sent to a far and mysterious country where he is to obtain a pearl under difficult circumstances. While away, despite warnings, he slumbers and forgets who he is and his glorious past and even, for a time, his purpose of coming to this strange land.

At some point, he is given help and as he reads a letter from his home, he remembers what it is that he is to accomplish here. He remembers his glorious past, his purpose and accomplishes it. Upon his return, his prior glorious robes are placed upon him, and family and friends now bestow accolades upon him, of which he is only then deserving.
Pure nonsense.

Historians discuss this ancient christian doctrine very differently than individuals who do not know how the Christians interpreted and used their texts. R. H. Charles, the premier expert in pseudographia and apocrypha in his great work, The Apocrypha and Pseudapigrapha of the Old Testament , volume 2, says, "The Platonic doctrine of preexistence of souls is here taught. We find that it had already made its way into Jewish thought in Egypt." So in explaining where the christians and Jews GOT this doctrine, he feels it was “through Egypt, Christians and Jews, he says, both adopted this†Even though pre-existent spirits was an Egyptian doctrine, I believe the Jews and Christians possessed this doctrine completely independent of the Egyptians.
Might explain why God saw fit not to include it in the canon of the Bible.

Such vast amounts of early christian doctrines and literature cannot make sense to a christianity that no longer believes in such doctrines. It is in this way that I wanted to be able to compare the modern SDA doctrines with the ancient christian doctrines. You may certainly claim that the ancient christians and jews that believed in Pre-creation existence of spirits were wrong and try and make the point with any data you can muster, however to claim that the doctrine was unique to Joseph Smith is incorrect.
Yes, you are right. There were many in error besides Joseph Smith.

5) REGARDING THE FREE WILL OF MANKIND
[quote:2jvfra08]Clearly asked : I am wondering about your description and it’s relationship to “free willâ€. For example, you say “If you see your sinfulness, do not wait to make yourself betterâ€. In SDA doctrine is there “free will†within man that, separately from God’s influence, may chose to to “right†or “goodâ€?

RND answered : According to scripture? No.
Since the SDA’s do not believe that man can choose “right†or “goodâ€,[/quote:2jvfra08] Not without the input of God.

do they believe that man cannot choose “error†or ‘bad†either?
If man can be influenced by God to do good then man can be influenced by Satan to do wrong.

Who or What is making the choice to do good and evil in SDA theology.?
God =Good, Satan = Bad.

Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

wiles = methodeia, which is where we get our English "method" from.
 
1) REGARDING THE PRE-CREATION TIME PERIOD :
Clear said : I am simply asking if SDAs also have data regarding this time period.
RND responded : Paul didn't offer any explanation for the "mystery of iniquity" that's why it's a mystery.

Thank you. I did NOT disagree that this time period and it’s events were a mystery to the SDA, I merely disagreed with your assumption that because it is a mystery to the SDA, that it is a mystery to everyone else. It may help if you simply try to stick with SDA theology rather than making claims for other theologies you do are unfamiliar with.


REGARDING WHAT THE EARLY CHRISTIANS THEMSELVES SAID THEY BELIEVED

First of all, Many of these quotes from early christians ARE commenting on what they, themselves believe from reading their sacred texts. A Christian in 70 a.d. HAD no New Testament. Yet they had a great deal of literature they read. You will have to start thinking historically if you will ever understand history correctly.

“The book of Enoch is not considered canonical for a number of reasons, I've never read it myself, and I don't necessarily consider it that important. Know why there was iniquity and not understanding the mechanics of frankly have nothing to do with my salvation.
Again you are making an incorrect assumption. The Book of Enoch is no longer in the WESTERN canon. It remains in the eastern canon. For example, there are 45 million in the Ethiopian Christian church and it IS in their canon. It WAS in the Dead Sea Scroll library canon, and it WAS represented by more copies than almost any other Old Testament book with few exceptions as a measure of it import. (the same type of measure modern libraries use in determining the popularity of a text)

You are simply refusing to consider that the early christians were different than you. Try to think about what the early christians and Jews themselves read; what THEIR doctrines, etc. You are making another incorrect assumption that your beliefs represent theirs. They are not the same.


The fact that none of these works are referenced in the Gospels or epistles would be a red flag for me. There are a whole host of ancient scriptures that aren't Biblical.
Remember, that there WAS no New Testament at the time of Barnabas and Clement or at the time of the Apostles. Remember that Papia was a contributor to the new testament. Remember, that in the later centuries when the canon was forming for the several christian churches, Barnabas WAS in their canon and Clement was as well. Again, you are NOT thinking historically and you are NOT the center of the theological universe. You are simply demonstrating that the SDA doctrines are a different set than these early Judao-Christians believed.

You are free to argue that the early Jews and Christians were incorrect, however one cannot argue that they did not believe what they wrote as doctrine. If you think the early Christians believed something else regarding the specific point that the spirit existed prior to birth, I would certainly as that you tell us why SDAs believe what they believe. That is the purpose of your thread, is it not?

Clearly
 
Clearly said:
1) REGARDING THE PRE-CREATION TIME PERIOD :
Clear said : I am simply asking if SDAs also have data regarding this time period.
RND responded : Paul didn't offer any explanation for the "mystery of iniquity" that's why it's a mystery.

Thank you. I did NOT disagree that this time period and it’s events were a mystery to the SDA, I merely disagreed with your assumption that because it is a mystery to the SDA, that it is a mystery to everyone else.
In discussing the reason for Satan's rebellion we can not say with any rationale what would cause the third ranking member of the heavenly court to go sideways. Since you asked about what caused this rebellion I would have to concur with Paul and say we don't know, it a mystery. If you have anything from the Bible that states why Satan went sideways lemme know.

It may help if you simply try to stick with SDA theology rather than making claims for other theologies you do are unfamiliar with.
I have yet to see anything from any other theology that would give me any reason to disbelieve Paul's assessment.

REGARDING WHAT THE EARLY CHRISTIANS THEMSELVES SAID THEY BELIEVED

First of all, Many of these quotes from early christians ARE commenting on what they, themselves believe from reading their sacred texts. A Christian in 70 a.d. HAD no New Testament. Yet they had a great deal of literature they read. You will have to start thinking historically if you will ever understand history correctly.
Yes, there is no question the had alot to read, just as we do today. But your comparison of ancient gnostic/kaballa to inspired scripture is like comparing Encyclopedia Britannica and Playboy magazine in an attempt to understand history. The fact of the matter is that one cannot compare inspired scripture with non-inspired texts.

[quote:1f47jdbe] “The book of Enoch is not considered canonical for a number of reasons, I've never read it myself, and I don't necessarily consider it that important. Know why there was iniquity and not understanding the mechanics of frankly have nothing to do with my salvation.
Again you are making an incorrect assumption. The Book of Enoch is no longer in the WESTERN canon. [/quote:1f47jdbe] It doesn't make a difference frankly, error is error.

It remains in the eastern canon. For example, there are 45 million in the Ethiopian Christian church and it IS in their canon. It WAS in the Dead Sea Scroll library canon, and it WAS represented by more copies than almost any other Old Testament book with few exceptions as a measure of it import. (the same type of measure modern libraries use in determining the popularity of a text)
Great. If it was inspired text it would be in the Bible.

You are simply refusing to consider that the early christians were different than you.
Nope, I know for a fact they were different than me.

Try to think about what the early christians and Jews themselves read; what THEIR doctrines, etc. You are making another incorrect assumption that your beliefs represent theirs. They are not the same.
Again, I refer back to my earlier comparison.

Remember, that there WAS no New Testament at the time of Barnabas and Clement or at the time of the Apostles.
Right, and yet the Epsitles routinely refer to Christ and the Tanakh. That was my point. Paul doesn't reference any other works.

Remember that Papia was a contributor to the new testament.
No, he simply recorded traditions about the authorship of the gospels of Matthew and Mark.

Remember, that in the later centuries when the canon was forming for the several christian churches, Barnabas WAS in their canon and Clement was as well.
And then later removed.

Again, you are NOT thinking historically and you are NOT the center of the theological universe. You are simply demonstrating that the SDA doctrines are a different set than these early Judao-Christians believed.
I will gladly concede that SdA doctrine is not based on any amount of gnostic garbage.

You are free to argue that the early Jews and Christians were incorrect, however one cannot argue that they did not believe what they wrote as doctrine.
Oh, I'm sure some believed what these gnostic Jews wrote was doctrine, just not doctrine from God.

If you think the early Christians believed something else regarding the specific point that the spirit existed prior to birth, I would certainly as that you tell us why SDAs believe what they believe. That is the purpose of your thread, is it not?
Sure. It's at this point that I would direct you to the Torah, the Tanakh, the Gospels and the Epistles to search out the doctrine I and most other Christians believe. No where in any of these documents will you find the doctrine of man pre-existing as a spirit to be deposited in a human body. Search as you may but you won't find it. That's why you have to use non-scriptural documents, the beliefs of gnostic's, and the doctrines of the same to attempt to justify the belief in a doctrine that is not taught in the Bible.
 
POST ONE OF TWO

1) REGARDING THE PRE-CREATION TIME PERIOD BEING A “MYSTERY†TO THE SDAs.

Clearly responded : Thank you. I did NOT disagree that this time period and it’s events were a mystery to the SDA, I merely disagreed with your assumption that because it is a mystery to the SDA, that it is a mystery to everyone else.
RND replied In discussing the reason for Satan's rebellion we can not say with any rationale what would cause the third ranking member of the heavenly court to go sideways. Since you asked about what caused this rebellion I would have to concur with Paul and say we don't know, it a mystery. ... I have yet to see anything from any other theology that would give me any reason to disbelieve Paul's assessment.

Rather than argue, we may simply both agree that the SDA’s think that Paul did not know the answer and it is a mystery to the SDAs as well and that other christians did have a great deal of doctrinal information concerning this time period as demonstrated by the many Judao-Christian textual references to this time period.




2) REGARDING WHAT THE EARLY CHRISTIANS THEMSELVES SAID THEY BELIEVED

RND said : The fact that none of these works are referenced in the Gospels or epistles would be a red flag for me. You need to make fewer claims and obtain more education The New Testament did not Exist during the early days of Christianity. ....I know of no other denomination that claims "spirits" were made in heaven
- this has always been my POINT - you are ignorant of early doctrines that claim “spirits†existed prior to being placed in the body.


Regarding my quote from the ancient Text called "Pistis Sophia" :
RND replied : I have no idea who this woman is and wouldn't bank any of my beliefs on her. -
I had thought for a moment you were joking until I realized you were simply ignorant of ancient texts. Pistis Sophia is NOT a woman, it is a sacred TEXT. Your ability to make judgements about things you are completely ignorant of is amazing. You are developing a problem with credibility. How can one believe that you know any more about SDA theology than you do about history and ancient Christian theology? What if your accuracy regarding SDA theology is no more accurate than your accuracy regarding ancient christian history?


RND claimed : “The fact of the matter is that one cannot compare inspired scripture with non-inspired texts.†- In this case, the fact of the matter is whether the ancient christians BELIEVED in these texts. You may certainly argue that they were wrong in believing in these things and that your belief is better. I have no problem with that.

Still, It is historically apparent that THEY believed them and used them for inspiration and belief. Justin Martyr, Origen, Clement, Papias, Irenaeus are not heretical in THEIR time. You simply are ignorant of their import and position. For example; Clement IS Peter’s new Testament companion and is written at the same time John is writing his text on the Isle of Patmos. MY point was to show what the earliest Judao-Christian beliefs were, NOT that they were more correct than you. YOU may have the unhappy task of proving your doctrine is correct and the earliest Christians wrong. I was simply pointing the error in your claim that pre-existence of spirits was “unique to Joseph Smithâ€. I would NOT have corrected you had you not tried to teach an obvious error. I have made my point from many ancient texts, that this doctrine is not “uniqueâ€, but is very old, very widespread, and is very Christian.




RND says : The book of Enoch is not considered canonical for a number of reasons, I've never read it myself, and I don't necessarily consider it that important.
Again you are admitting ignorance and then making a judgement on the very thing you have admitted ignorance to. The credible order is to gain KNOWLEDGE and THEN make judgement on what one knows. You are correct in the arrogant claim that “error is errorâ€, but you do not understand that “ignorance is ignoranceâ€. In the SDA thread, stay with what you know and understand rather than trying to expound on what you do not know anything about.





clearly said : You are simply refusing to consider that the early christians were different than you.
RND : Nope, I know for a fact they were different than me.
Thank you for admitting this important point. They did NOT believe the same things as you; they did NOT read ONLY the same number and ONLY the same type of texts as you until AFTER the western texts evolved into the western texts and became more settled.




RND said : “...the Epsitles routinely refer to Christ and the Tanakh. That was my point. Paul doesn't reference any other works.â€
If you read the New Testament, you are often reading quotes FROM MANY other texts. You are simply unaware of it. When Jude quotes from Enoch, which Enoch did you think he was quoting from? Though you say you “like historyâ€, but you do not “know†history. A serious study of history keeps us from making naive and silly claims. It is only serious study and knowledge that will keep you from referring to Pistis Sophia as a “woman†in the future.




Clear tries to teach a principle : Again, you are NOT thinking historically and you are NOT the center of the theological universe. You are simply demonstrating that the SDA doctrines are a different set than these early Judao-Christians believed.

RND deflects the point : I will gladly concede that SdA doctrine is not based on any amount of gnostic garbage.
You are very confused and again have jumped to another incorrect conclusion.

I quoted from Justin Martyr (the FIRST Christian apologist of note). I quoted from, Origen, Irenaeus; from Augustine, archbishop Timothy of Jerusalem (4th century), from Josephus, from Meyer, R.H. Charles, and the Dead Sea Scroll Jews. I quoted from Gregory of Nyssa and from Basilides. NONE of these are gnostic. You dismissed these sources by simply saying “Oh, I'm sure some believed what these gnostic Jews wrote was doctrine, just not doctrine from God.â€. I find it difficult to believe that you are making these mistakes out of ignorance. Most of these quotes cannot be claimed to be frankly gnostic, nor jewish.




Clear said : If you think the early Christians believed something else regarding the specific point that the spirit existed prior to birth, I would certainly as that you tell us why SDAs believe what they believe. That is the purpose of your thread, is it not?

RND responds : Sure. It's at this point that I would direct you to the Torah, the Tanakh, the Gospels and the Epistles to search out the doctrine I and most other Christians believe. No where in any of these documents will you find the doctrine of man pre-existing as a spirit to be deposited in a human body. Search as you may but you won't find it. That's why you have to use non-scriptural documents, the beliefs of gnostic's, and the doctrines of the same to attempt to justify the belief in a doctrine that is not taught in the Bible.

The purpose of quoting the early Judao-Christian Documents was NOT because the doctrine of pre-mortal existence of the spirits is not taught, the doctrine certainly IS taught throughout the biblical texts, but rather I quoted the ancient Judao-Christian writings to show how the early Jews and Christians INTERPRETED the scriptures you and I read.

Frequently the quoting of scriptures simply becomes a battle of “dueling scriptures†where two theists quote scriptures and then disagree on how one is to interpret what they read. It becomes a silly and useless exercise when the REAL question can be answered by simply reading what the ancients themselves said ABOUT the scriptures. There is no dearth of historical data and writings made by the early jews and Christians themselves. This is the value of my quotes.

If I say that I believe that man has a spirit within him and quote scriptures, what do they then mean.

Eccl. 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
I might interpret this to mean that upon death of the body, the spirit in man shall return to God, where it was before. My opponent might interpret it differently. The question is how it was meant and understood anciently and originally. If I want to know how the ancient Christians interpreted it, I can read their own comments regarding the matter or what they read that gives a clearer picture.

Therefore, fear not death. For that which is from me, that is the soul [spirit], departs for heaven. That which is from the earth, that is the body, departs for the earth from which it was taken.†(The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4) It is the often the additional data that makes clear and confirms

In the popular Apocalypse of Sedrach God sends for the soul of the Prophet Sedrach. God says, “Go, take the soul of my beloved Sedrach, and put it in Paradise.†The messenger says to Sedrach, “give me that which our Father deposited in the womb of your mother in your holy dwelling place since you were born.â€.... give me your most desired soul [spirit]. The apocalypse of Sedrach 9:1-2 and 5

The apocalyptic literature of the Jews and Early Christians are by their very definition, full of reference to visions of heaven and spirits there. In the apocalypse of Abraham, he see’s the vision of heaven and the souls there :
“And I saw there a great crowd of men and women and children, half of them on the right side of the portrayal, and half of them on the left side of the portrayal. Ch 22 1 “And I said, “Eternal, Mighty One! What is this picture of creation?â€......Why are the people in this picture on this side and on that?â€.... “ And the angel explains regarding these spirits : “those on the right side of the picture are the people set apart for me of the people with azazel; these are the ones I have prepared to be born of you and to be called my people.†The Apocalypse of Abraham 21:1-7 and 22:1-5;

And some of these book have clearer expositions of this doctrine of the ancient Jews and christians.
“At the time that the Holy One, be blessed, was about to create the world, he decided to fashion all the souls which would in due course be dealt out to the children of men, and each soul was formed into the exact outline of the body she was destined to tenant. Scrutinizing each, he saw that among them some would fall into evil ways in the world. Each one in it’s due time the Holy One, be blessed, bade come to him, and then said: “Go now, descend into this that this place, into this and this body.†The Zohar - The Destiny of the Soul

Though I cannot prove the ancient jews or Christians were correct in this doctrine, I can show that they believed these doctrines and read these books among the other literature available to them. For example, Ezra is so popular and so wide read that it is the NON-Canonical EZRA that Christopher Columbus believes in, quotes from, and uses to approximates the size of the globe (and therefore the approximate length of his voyage). When Erasmus has his argument with Luther it is NOT a canonical book he refers to, but rather it is the apocryphal text SIRACH he uses in his argument.


If I simply quote Luke 23:46 where Jesus says, “into thy hands I commend my spirit†upon the death of his body. I might interpret this to mean that the spirit in Jesus body returns to God just as Ecclesiastes said it would. However, my opponent might interpret it differently. If we want to know how would the ancient christians interpreted it, we may simply look at what THEY themselves said.

R. Ishmael said : Metatron said to me : Come and I will show you the souls of the righteous who have already been created and have returned, and the souls of the righteous who have not yet been created. 3rd Enoch 43: 1-3. Again, the Enochian literature illuminates and confirms that the soul [or spirit) is separate from the Body and it returns to God upon death, just as Ecclesiastes describes.

Though this time period IS a mystery for the SDA as RND says. This was NOT true of the ancients; they possessed clear doctrines concerning this time period and their literature describes it clearly. Their literature described not only the spirits leaving of the body upon death, but they possessed doctrines as to the placing of the spirit into the body :
“For just as a potter knows the pot, how much it holds, and brings clay for it accordingly, so also the Lord forms the body in correspondence to the spirit, and instills the spirit corresponding to the power of the body....And just as the potter knows the use of each vessel and to what it is suited, so also the Lord knows the body to what extent it will persist in goodness, and when it will be dominated by evil. Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs- NAPTHALI 2:2-5;

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