Clearly said:
Rather than argue, we may simply both agree that the SDA’s think that Paul did not know the answer and it is a mystery to the SDAs as well and that other christians did have a great deal of doctrinal information concerning this time period as demonstrated by the many Judao-Christian textual references to this time period.
In a previous post you said:
"I need to ask for more clarification. The early judao-christian literature has so much data regarding this theme that I had wanted to compare SDA doctrine with the Judao-christian ancient literature. So, if you are saying the SDA have no data as to why Lucifer became Satan, did God give the prophet Ellen G. white ANY any additional doctrine that I could compare with ancient christian doctrines regarding Satan’s specific enmity towards Adam?"
To which I answered: Well I don't know that there is anyone that can fully explain the "mystery" of iniquity quite frankly. I mean if Paul couldn't do it and he knew all things in heaven and earth pertaining to God I don't know that anyone can.
This answered satisfied your inquiry and in no way should be concluded that I was inferring anything else about another topic.
The doctrinal information you claim that other christians did have were extra Biblical writings and thus not considered canonical.
2) REGARDING WHAT THE EARLY CHRISTIANS THEMSELVES SAID THEY BELIEVED
[quote:31yn6kp0]RND said : The fact that none of these works are referenced in the Gospels or epistles would be a red flag for me. You need to make fewer claims and obtain more education The New Testament did not Exist during the early days of Christianity. ....I know of no other denomination that claims "spirits" were made in heaven
- this has always been my POINT -
you are ignorant of early doctrines that claim “spirits†existed prior to being placed in the body.[/quote:31yn6kp0] Not ignorant, just pointing out that what you believe other Christians received as doctrinal text were not in fact Scripture that's all.
Regarding my quote from the ancient Text called "Pistis Sophia" : [quote:31yn6kp0] RND replied : I have no idea who this woman is and wouldn't bank any of my beliefs on her. -
I had thought for a moment you were joking until I realized you were simply ignorant of ancient texts.
Pistis Sophia is NOT a woman, it is a sacred TEXT. Your ability to make judgements about things you are completely ignorant of is amazing. You are developing a problem with credibility. How can one believe that you know any more about SDA theology than you do about history and ancient Christian theology? What if your accuracy regarding SDA theology is no more accurate than your accuracy regarding ancient christian history?[/quote:31yn6kp0] Is the text in question part of any Scripture that is considered canonical and inspired by the Holy Spirit? The answer is no. Therefore it holds no more weight with me than a copy of MADD magazine with Alfred E. Newman dressed as Moses.
You are trying to equate learning "doctrinal knowledge" from non-inspired text as somehow important.
RND claimed : “The fact of the matter is that one cannot compare inspired scripture with non-inspired texts.†- In this case, the fact of the matter is whether the ancient christians BELIEVED in these texts. You may certainly argue that they were wrong in believing in these things and that your belief is better. I have no problem with that.
Great! What these other Christian may have believed based on gnostic scriptures carries -zero- weight with me.
Still, It is historically apparent that THEY believed them and used them for inspiration and belief.
The Bible tells us also that grievous wolves had already entered into the church and would not spare the flock and that many of these false gnostic doctrine that the like of Origen and Justin Martyr believed and introduced are simple tripe. Origen for example is a known gnostic from Alexander and everyone for the most part knows that Origen denied the deity of Christ.
Again you are admitting ignorance and then making a judgement on the very thing you have admitted ignorance to. The credible order is to gain KNOWLEDGE and THEN make judgement on what one knows. You are correct in the arrogant claim that “error is errorâ€, but you do not understand that “ignorance is ignoranceâ€. In the SDA thread, stay with what you know and understand rather than trying to expound on what you do not know anything about.
Yeah, and I stated what I have knowledge of. The book of Enoch is also tripe. It's error.
Thank you for admitting this important point. They did NOT believe the same things as you; they did NOT read ONLY the same number and ONLY the same type of texts as you until AFTER the western texts evolved into the western texts and became more settled.
They read error and false doctrines and fairy tales. I wouldn't put any stock in any of the ancient text you referenced as inspired teaching. Period. The fact that folks believed them makes no difference to me.
If you read the New Testament, you are often reading quotes FROM MANY other texts. You are simply unaware of it. When Jude quotes from Enoch, which Enoch did you think he was quoting from? Though you say you “like historyâ€, but you do not “know†history. A serious study of history keeps us from making naive and silly claims. It is only serious study and knowledge that will keep you from referring to Pistis Sophia as a “woman†in the future.
Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
There is debate whether or not Jude was actually quoting the apocryphal book of Enoch or something else. This debate aside, if this is a quote from the book of Enoch, it does not affect the doctrine of inspiration nor does it mean that the early church removed the book of Enoch because of its internal inconsistencies. First of all, the book of Enoch was not considered scripture by the Christian Church. There was some discussion on its canonicity by a few people, but the Christian Church did not include it in the Bible. Second, Jude only quoted something that was true in Enoch and it does not mean that Enoch was inspired.
I quoted from Justin Martyr (the FIRST Christian apologist of note). I quoted from, Origen, Irenaeus; from Augustine, archbishop Timothy of Jerusalem (4th century), from Josephus, from Meyer, R.H. Charles, and the Dead Sea Scroll Jews. I quoted from Gregory of Nyssa and from Basilides. NONE of these are gnostic.
On the contrary Origen was a known gnostic that denied the fact that Jesus was God. I wouldn't insult Iranaeus or Gregory of Nyssa by lumping them together.
You dismissed these sources by simply saying “Oh, I'm sure some believed what these gnostic Jews wrote was doctrine, just not doctrine from God.â€. I find it difficult to believe that you are making these mistakes out of ignorance. Most of these quotes cannot be claimed to be frankly gnostic, nor jewish.
The fact that some of the "early Christians" you quoted were from the Alexandria school makes anything they write suspect.
The purpose of quoting the early Judao-Christian Documents was NOT because the doctrine of pre-mortal existence of the spirits is not taught, the doctrine certainly IS taught throughout the biblical texts, but rather I quoted the ancient Judao-Christian writings to show how the early Jews and Christians INTERPRETED the scriptures you and I read.
The doctrine is taught no where in the Biblical texts.The fact that some INTERPRETED the Bible that way is attributable to the false doctrines they believed.
Frequently the quoting of scriptures simply becomes a battle of “dueling scriptures†where two theists quote scriptures and then disagree on how one is to interpret what they read. It becomes a silly and useless exercise when the REAL question can be answered by simply reading what the ancients themselves said ABOUT the scriptures. There is no dearth of historical data and writings made by the early jews and Christians themselves. This is the value of my quotes.
The value of your quotes is to simply illustrate the error of other's beliefs.
If I say that I believe that man has a spirit within him and quote scriptures, what do they then mean.
[quote:31yn6kp0] Eccl. 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
I might interpret this to mean that upon death of the body, the spirit in man shall return to God, where it was before. My opponent might interpret it differently. The question is how it was meant and understood anciently and originally. If I want to know how the ancient Christians interpreted it, I can read their own comments regarding the matter or what they read that gives a clearer picture.[/quote:31yn6kp0] When we allow scripture to interpret scripture we never get into any trouble. The Bible can speak for itself.
Therefore, fear not death. For that which is from me, that is the soul [spirit], departs for heaven. That which is from the earth, that is the body, departs for the earth from which it was taken.†(The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4) It is the often the additional data that makes clear and confirms
Looks like someone forgot to read Genesis 2:7.
In the popular Apocalypse of Sedrach God sends for the soul of the Prophet Sedrach. God says, “Go, take the soul of my beloved Sedrach, and put it in Paradise.†The messenger says to Sedrach, “give me that which our Father deposited in the womb of your mother in your holy dwelling place since you were born.â€.... give me your most desired soul [spirit]. The apocalypse of Sedrach 9:1-2 and 5
Tripe.
The apocalyptic literature of the Jews and Early Christians are by their very definition, full of reference to visions of heaven and spirits there. In the apocalypse of Abraham, he see’s the vision of heaven and the souls there :[quote:31yn6kp0] “And I saw there a great crowd of men and women and children, half of them on the right side of the portrayal, and half of them on the left side of the portrayal. Ch 22 1 “And I said, “Eternal, Mighty One! What is this picture of creation?â€......Why are the people in this picture on this side and on that?â€.... “ And the angel explains regarding these spirits : “those on the right side of the picture are the people set apart for me of the people with azazel; these are the ones I have prepared to be born of you and to be called my people.†The Apocalypse of Abraham 21:1-7 and 22:1-5;
More fantasy based on a rather warped view of the Bible.
The Zohar - The Destiny of the Soul
[/quote:31yn6kp0] Error is error.
Though I cannot prove the ancient jews or Christians were correct in this doctrine,
So you just speculate.
If I simply quote Luke 23:46 where Jesus says, “into thy hands I commend my spirit†upon the death of his body. I might interpret this to mean that the spirit in Jesus body returns to God just as Ecclesiastes said it would. However, my opponent might interpret it differently. If we want to know how would the ancient christians interpreted it, we may simply look at what THEY themselves said.
And I certainly wouldn't base any of my beliefs on what they thought.
R. Ishmael said : Metatron said to me : Come and I will show you the souls of the righteous who have already been created and have returned, and the souls of the righteous who have not yet been created. 3rd Enoch 43: 1-3. Again, the Enochian literature illuminates and confirms that the soul [or spirit) is separate from the Body and it returns to God upon death, just as Ecclesiastes describes.
Though this time period IS a mystery for the SDA as RND says. This was NOT true of the ancients; they possessed clear doctrines concerning this time period and their literature describes it clearly.
Which clearly were in error and not based on anything from the Bible but other texts.
Their literature described not only the spirits leaving of the body upon death, but they possessed doctrines as to the placing of the spirit into the body : [quote:31yn6kp0] “For just as a potter knows the pot, how much it holds, and brings clay for it accordingly, so also the Lord forms the body in correspondence to the spirit, and instills the spirit corresponding to the power of the body....And just as the potter knows the use of each vessel and to what it is suited, so also the Lord knows the body to what extent it will persist in goodness, and when it will be dominated by evil. Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs- NAPTHALI 2:2-5;
[/quote:31yn6kp0] Error based not on the Bible.
