Shame On You Philadelphia

[Lewis]

Last year I posted something about this Christmas Village in Philadelphia, but now they want to take down the signs that say Christmas, because they do not want to offend people like the Muslim vendors, they are saying that it is much more diegestable to call it the Holiday Villiage, sounds like the ACLU doesn't it ? But this mess is from the city manager, they just have to try and water down Christmas, and I am heated about it. So they decided not to change the name to Holiday Village, so instead they have taken down the Christmas Village signs. What are Muslim venders doing there anyway, am I wrong for feeling this way. Many people here are mad about this change 93 percent want it changed back, and 7% percent don't.

Christmas Village Won't Change Its Name

PHILADELPHIA - The organizer of the "Christmas Village" event at City Hall says he won't delete "Christmas" from his event's name, but he will take down signs about the event to comply with a city request.

Dr. Thomas Bauer, the President German American Marketing, which runs the event, says his group never changed the name of the event, but took the word "Christmas" off its signs at the request of Philadelphia managing director Rich Negrin.
Now, Bauer says he will remove the archway that had "Christmas Village" on it, rather than changing the name to "Holiday Village" as the city asked.
"The event name continues to be 'Christmas Village in Philadelphia'," Bauer said. "The change of its light arch was not initiated by the event organizer, but was a response to what the Office of the Managing Director at the City of Philadelphia asked for. The event is hosted on Public Property."
"Along with our most important partner - the City of Philadelphia - we fulfill the request of Managing Director Richard Negrin," Bauer said.

Bauer also said the concept of a Christmas Village in Germany was multicultural.

"Christmas Village in Philadelphia hosts Muslim, Jewish and Christian vendors. The purpose of Christmas markets in Germany is for everyone to come together and have a good time and not to feel excluded or insulted in any way," Bauer said.
[video=youtube;O7tFuKqI0VY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7tFuKqI0VY&feature=player_embedded[/video]
Negrin is trying to spin the city's decision to drop the word "Christmas" from the vendor display as an inclusive decision.
Also on Tuesday, the city called the event "Holiday Village In Philadelphia" in a press release about its tree lighting ceremony.
But that isn't helping the city deal with a story that has spread on the Internet that makes Negrin look like a Grinch.
The controversy started when the Philadelphia Daily News wrote that the name of the "German Christmas Village" had been changed by Negrin to the "Holiday Village In Philadelphia" after Negrin said he got complaints about using the word "Christmas."
The story spread quickly on the Internet and TV as many people questioned the decision.
On MyFoxPhilly.com's Facebook page , we had more than 150 people comment on the decision and the vast majority of people were against the name change.
Negrin then held a Tuesday afternoon press conference to defend the decision. He said the city acted after the complaints and the event's organizer quickly agreed to the change.
"This is not about taking Christmas out of the holiday. It's about being more inclusive," Negrin said. He went to add, "I am a preacher's kid. I love Christmas. This is not about political correctness or trying to say something negative about Christmas."
In an interesting side note, Negrin defended the city's decision to light its annual Tree on Thursday. (The city calls the tree a Holiday Tree and not a Christmas Tree.)
The tree is OK, Negrin said, because it's "not a discreet religious symbol. It's a pagan symbol."
Fox 29 was at the press conference and spoke to vendors at the craft and gift exposition. Most vendors we spoke with didn't have a problem with the word "Christmas" in the name of the village display.
The attraction's official Web site at www.philachristmas.com hasn't changed its name yet.
The site says vendors in more than 80 wooden booths and inside a big tent sell European food, sweets and drinks as well as international seasonal holiday gifts.
Fox 29's Dave Schratwieser reports that as of this evening, the public reaction to this change has been minimal. Negrin said that he has only received three emails and a few phone calls.
City Defends Removing Christmas Signage

 

[craigmn3]

I wonder how the Philly merchants would feel if people stopped buying Christmas presents.

 

[farouk]

I wonder how the Philly merchants would feel if people stopped buying Christmas presents.

LOL

This is a good comment!

 

[Lance_Iguana]

Did the vendors actually complain? Or was this just jumping the shark. For the most part, most people don't actually care about the decorations or events. In the last few years its mostly just been businesses volentarily avoiding Christmas not the public doing it.

The only thing I can think of recently was that "war on Christmas" stuff last year when it was just a mess and it would have blown over if Fox didn't make such a big deal about it.

Look at this thread, there is no inform about the vendors even really being involved yet you guys automatically jump to it.

I'm seeing the real tragedy here, a City official jumped the gun and people are so mad that they don't get their pretty decorations that some are already starting to talk about ruining the businesses of other people to spite teh city official.

Can we act like adults and not turn into an unruly mob?

 

[Danus]

I don't like how Christmas is being deleted from government and secular cultures either, but I'm starting to think that maybe it's for the better, that the secular culture not refer to their "holiday" as Christmas. In fact I think we should protest their use of the term Christmas.

Let them have the term "holiday" and let the Christian culture keep Christmas. Let the stores say happy holiday. Let the city and town governments have holiday parades and villages and holiday light spectacles. who knows what else they might add to their "holiday" traditions....maybe some fire breathing clowns would be nice.

Maybe then we can all get back to what our celebration is in the first place.

 

[Lewis]

PHILADELPHIA - December 1, 2010 (WPVI) -- The Philadelphia Archdiocese is condemning the city's decision to remove the word Christmas from a sign outside City Hall.

In a strongly worded statement released on Wednesday afternoon, the Archdiocese said it was "disappointed" in the decision to remove the sign from the "Christmas Village," a collection of shops set up at Dilworth Plaza.
Earlier this week, the word "Christmas" was removed from a sign that said "Christmas Village." On Tuesday night, decision was made to remove the sign entirely.
However, the shops would still be called "Christmas Village."
German American Marketing, Inc., which runs the village, says the word 'Christmas' was removed from the archways at the request of the city after they received numerous complaints.
Philadelphia Managing Director Richard Negrin told Action News that the change was made "to be more inclusive."
However, in the statement, the Archdiocese said "If we are to be a truly diverse and inclusive community, we must certainly be respectful of all of the various celebrations that occur during this time of year. Christmas deserves its rightful place among those. If we are truly to use common sense, we should understand that Christmas villages and trees are just that and not vague symbols of some nebulous winter "holiday" devoid of meaning. "
The statement goes on to say "This decision is a stark example of the secularization that is obscuring the true meaning of the Christmas season. It is a time when we Christians rejoice in the birth of our Savior, Jesus Christ, and rekindle within our hearts a renewed spirit of charity, forbearance, and benevolence toward our fellow human beings. As it stands, the decision in question falls far short of capturing that essence."
The Archdiocese concludes by saying "The heritage of the City of Philadelphia is one that celebrates and respects freedom of religious expression. It is indeed disappointing to see this basic freedom undermined in America's cradle of religious liberty. After all, there wouldn't be a village if it weren't Christmas!"
German American Marketing says in a press release, "We at German American Marketing, Inc. never intended to exclude anyone. The whole concept of Christmas markets in Germany is about joy, fun and entertainment and not a place for religious conflicts."
Phila. Archdiocese responds to 'Christmas' controversy | 6abc.com

 

[Lance_Iguana]

So let me get this straight.

First the Village's name was changed because they wanted to be more welcoming to non Christians. They did this voluntarily.

Then some people complained that it had to be called Christmas village, because otherwise it looses its meaning? So to save the huge hassle the city just canceled the village altogether to keep this from turning into a massive mess.

Since the village was canceled people are now complaining that their religious rights are being violated because the city won't run their specific town and call it by their religious theme. They are not running any other religion's theme, yet the people are still calling rights violation.

Remember this is after the city government had already tried running it, but people where to concerned over a stupid name.

This sounds like 4 year old kids complaining about who has the better sipy cup based on the color.

There is no rights violation, only a town throwing a tantrum and trying to blame other people for the mess they started

 

[craigmn3]

Well I guess there is nothing to do, but change the city name....after all it is a Christian word, meaning brotherly love. Directly inspired by Revelation

Holy Hannah, is it any wonder I am a grinch ;)

 

[jasoncran]

Well I guess there is nothing to do, but change the city name....after all it is a Christian word, meaning brotherly love. Directly inspired by Revelation

Holy Hannah, is it any wonder I am a grinch ;)

christians speak latin? and william penn is a quaker not really a christian.

the city of philadelphia wasnt a christian city for that reason.

Alaşehir began as perhaps one of the first ancient cities with the name Philadelphia. It was established in 189 BC by King Eumenes II of Pergamon (197-160 BC). Eumenes II named the city for the love of his brother, who would be his successor, Attalus II (159-138 BC), whose loyalty earned him the nickname, "Philadelphos", literally meaning "one who loves his brother". The city is perhaps best-known as the site of one of the seven churches of Asia in the Book of Revelation.

from wikipedia.

 

[theLords]

I don't like how Christmas is being deleted from government and secular cultures either, but I'm starting to think that maybe it's for the better, that the secular culture not refer to their "holiday" as Christmas. In fact I think we should protest their use of the term Christmas.

Let them have the term "holiday" and let the Christian culture keep Christmas. Let the stores say happy holiday. Let the city and town governments have holiday parades and villages and holiday light spectacles. who knows what else they might add to their "holiday" traditions....maybe some fire breathing clowns would be nice.

Maybe then we can all get back to what our celebration is in the first place.

I really liked your perspective on the matter. It really made me think

You're absolutely right, let them have their "Holiday" and we Christians will celebrate the coming of the Messiah who will save the world from its sin :D

 

[elttik]

I don't like how Christmas is being deleted from government and secular cultures either, but I'm starting to think that maybe it's for the better, that the secular culture not refer to their "holiday" as Christmas. In fact I think we should protest their use of the term Christmas.

Let them have the term "holiday" and let the Christian culture keep Christmas. Let the stores say happy holiday. Let the city and town governments have holiday parades and villages and holiday light spectacles. who knows what else they might add to their "holiday" traditions....maybe some fire breathing clowns would be nice.

Maybe then we can all get back to what our celebration is in the first place.

That is a view I never considered but it makes a lot of sense.

 

[Lewis]

Lance where does it say that the Village was canceled ?

 

[Lance_Iguana]

Lance where does it say that the Village was canceled ?

Isn't that what your first article is about? If not then this is even more immature then what I thought.

People complaining over a stupid name change, where is the rights violation, where is this supposed complaint from the Muslims.

Its not there.

EDIT: ok I reread your last article, It seems that only the sign was removed. Which makes me ask, Seriously!?!? There is commotion over a sign being removed. The festival itself is still called Christmas village. Who cares about a stupid sign? This seems like whining for the sake of whining at this point.

I want to ask Lewis, and I'm doing this because I've seen these storyies every year, do you guys want to be offended and make big deal out of nothing just to justify this assumption that everyone hates Christians? Really, that's all I see here. Nothing is actually being done to prevent the village, just a sign was removed.

 

[Lewis]

It is back

CENTER CITY - December 2, 2010 (WPVI) -- The word in a sign that sparked so much controversy has returned to a Christmas display outside Philadelphia City Hall.

The word "Christmas" went back up on the two signs outside of City Hall on Dilworth Plaza on Thursday morning, welcoming visitors to a small collection of shops called "Christmas Village."
The mayor told reporters Tuesday, "I am pleased to let you know that Christmas Village is back. The sign will be back."
On Monday, after hearing of complaints from citizens and city workers about religious diversity and inclusiveness, organizers of the German-inspired merchant fair decided to take down the word Christmas on the large signs outside City Hall - only to have the mayor reverse that decision on Wednesday.

The mayor called for Christmas to come back by Thursday morning. Holiday is out - Christmas back in. Mayor Nutter said, "Christmas Village continues. It's a wonderful experience in a great multi-cultural, multi-faith, multi-ethnic city."
The reversal on the removal of the word Christmas came after two days of criticism - some calling it political correctness gone out of control.
The Philadelphia Archdiocese released a strongly worded statement saying, "After all, there wouldn't be a village if it weren't Christmas!"
Center City resident Katie Shanley tells us, "Yeah, I like it. It's got Christmas trees everywhere. You can't call it a 'holiday village.'"
Jennifer Sappington, a vendor at the village, says, "How do you take "Christmas" away from the "Village" when you have a Christmas tree standing right behind it."
This raises a point: Today, the city lights up the tree outside City Hall. Is it a Christmas tree or a holiday tree?

"Christmas" returns to Philly's Christmas Village | 6abc.com Mayor Nutter responded to that question by saying, "I believe it's a called the city's tree lighting."
The Mayor will be lighting the tree at Dilworth Plaza along with the tree in Love Park later on this evening. Festivities are set to begin on Dilworth Plaza at 5:00 p.m. and the tree is scheduled to be lit at 5:30.

 

[Lewis]

Lance wrote
I want to ask Lewis, and I'm doing this because I've seen these storyies every year, do you guys want to be offended and make big deal out of nothing just to justify this assumption that everyone hates Christians? Really, that's all I see here. Nothing is actually being done to prevent the village, just a sign was removed.

Lance how can you understand us when you have not the Holy Ghost. It is impossible for you, that the Holy Ghost does not dwell in to understand. So we look at you who is the person without the understanding, and I am not getting on your case Lance just speaking the truth, from a Biblical point of view and fact. The secular world has not any understanding, that is why they do the things that they do. Lance I love you brother

 

[Lance_Iguana]

Lance how can you understand us when you have not the Holy Ghost. It is impossible for you, that the Holy Ghost does not dwell in to understand.

No, you guys keep forgetting that I used to belong to a few Evangelical churches. Some on the charismatic side. I used to get worked up over stories like this and used to say the same thing to non believers as you are saying to me right now.
Its called cognitive dissonance. You can't comprehend my position so you assume I can't comprehend yours. To me the story is cut and dry. People threw a tantrum overs a stupid sign when the actual festival was left untouched. I don't see the oppression or hate.

So we look at you who is the person without the understanding, and I am not getting on your case Lance just speaking the truth,

You are pushing an assumption forth as truth. You guys have a problem with believing that some of us where true believers, but lost faith when cracks we were trained to ignore come forth.

from a Biblical point of view and fact.

The Biblical view is not a fact because no denomination agrees with what another denomination says on it.(once saved always saved doctrine) Its mostly assumption and trying to reconcile why someone would leave. This also has nothing to do with the sign. You haven't even tried to justify all the outcry over it either. The village was left alone, yet the sign was removed because people where more concerned with the name rather then the actual event. Its not hard to see it.

The secular world has not any understanding,

No, you are making a claim you can't back up. You're not even trying to justify the outrage. Please explain why its so important to have a sign that says Christmas instead of holiday and how that is a violation of religous rights.

that is why they do the things that they do.

That's not an explanation. You have to explain your situation and the logic behind it to demonstrate the differences.

Lance I love you brother

And I believe that. I'm not attacking you or being bitter in these topics. I quite enjoy the holiday fun this time of year. Including the decorations and events. Heck I still like seeing plays of the birth of Jesus and hearing the legends of Yule, and the common myths of Santa.

I'm just distressed over people missing the point and making to big of a deal out of nothing.

 

[Oats]

No, you guys keep forgetting that I used to belong to a few Evangelical churches. Some on the charismatic side. I used to get worked up over stories like this and used to say the same thing to non believers as you are saying to me right now.
Its called cognitive dissonance. You can't comprehend my position so you assume I can't comprehend yours. To me the story is cut and dry. People threw a tantrum overs a stupid sign when the actual festival was left untouched. I don't see the oppression or hate.

You are pushing an assumption forth as truth. You guys have a problem with believing that some of us where true believers, but lost faith when cracks we were trained to ignore come forth.

The Biblical view is not a fact because no denomination agrees with what another denomination says on it.(once saved always saved doctrine) Its mostly assumption and trying to reconcile why someone would leave. This also has nothing to do with the sign. You haven't even tried to justify all the outcry over it either. The village was left alone, yet the sign was removed because people where more concerned with the name rather then the actual event. Its not hard to see it.

No, you are making a claim you can't back up. You're not even trying to justify the outrage. Please explain why its so important to have a sign that says Christmas instead of holiday and how that is a violation of religous rights.

That's not an explanation. You have to explain your situation and the logic behind it to demonstrate the differences.And I believe that. I'm not attacking you or being bitter in these topics. I quite enjoy the holiday fun this time of year. Including the decorations and events. Heck I still like seeing plays of the birth of Jesus and hearing the legends of Yule, and the common myths of Santa.

I'm just distressed over people missing the point and making to big of a deal out of nothing.

I have nothing to do with this...

but who do you mean by you guys


If you referring to all Christian that would be a prejudice

I don't agree with you but my stance is similar:

I don't care what this world does because it is only gonna get worse, and the sooner it does, the sooner the day of our Lords return.

Christmas is celebrated more for gifts and joy than for Jesus

the only reason we are happy is because we feel good

there are people who never get gifts at all...

The early Church didn't celebrate Christmas

and it is not originally Christian or so I hear


but fight for what you want

and no one be prejudice
In real Christianity denominations don't matter the church of God is a spiritual one, not a physical, stop judging all Christian based on what some believe. You haven't met every Christian to make that judgement. Just as I haven't met every non believer.

Why do you not believe in Christianity...pm me the answer if you are willing for a non judgmental conversation

 

[Lance_Iguana]

I have nothing to do with this...

but who do you mean by you guys


If you referring to all Christian that would be a prejudice

Don't worry Oats, I'm not referring to all Christians here. Just to those who hold the view I was criticizing. I'm better in one on one debate. ;)

I don't agree with you but my stance is similar:

I don't care what this world does because it is only gonna get worse, and the sooner it does, the sooner the day of our Lords return.

Christmas is celebrated more for gifts and joy than for Jesus

the only reason we are happy is because we feel good

there are people who never get gifts at all...

The early Church didn't celebrate Christmas

and it is not originally Christian or so I hear


but fight for what you want

and no one be prejudice

I understand what you are talking about Oats. Though I see the world as getting better. Not worse. Just a differnce in perspective though.

In real Christianity denominations don't matter the church of God is a spiritual one, not a physical, stop judging all Christian based on what some believe. You haven't met every Christian to make that judgement. Just as I haven't met every non believer.

I probably wasn't that clear. I'm not judging all Christians. I'm sorry if I come off that way sometimes. I was mostly just referring to specific ideals held by some Christians. Sorry for the mix up.

Why do you not believe in Christianity...pm me the answer if you are willing for a non judgmental conversation

I have a few threads where I explained it, but the simple version is that I followed blindly for a few years and moved around churches to find the right one. Ended up finally reading the Bible along side a few other holy books and realized I didn't actually believe most of the stuff in it. Naturalistic Pantheism makes more sense to me and the world around me, and dosen't demand me take on sacred cow style aproaches to subject matter. Plus there is doctorine in Christaintiy that contradicts my knowledge on Science and tried to tell me that I was a monster for several years. I didn't quite care being called a monster with the justification being so shallow.

That's the gist of it.