Bible Study Sheep who become lost.

[JLB]

But if losing salvation is the same as never having it would that person still have the HS?......and if they did would that not indicate that they were still saved?

I don’t use the term losing salvation because of my understanding of salvation by faith vs receiving the salvation of your soul at the end of your faith.


JLB

 

[Cygnus]

And there are some churches that teach that.......

Yes, they create sure fast doctrine from an extremely controversial verse. I've studied that verse and have seen several interpretations. I'm sure you have also.

 

[GodsGrace]

hello wondering, dirtfarmer here

To whom does the "lost" sheep belong? Is it still # 100 of the 100 that the shepherd owns? or does it belong to someone else?

The question to ask is about fellowship, not relationship. The lost sheep, while lost, stills has the same relationship with his owner. It is the fellowship that is hindered .

Dirtfarmer,
I don't see fellowship in the N.T.
If you could post some verses, I'd really appreciate it.
God doesn't know fellowship, He knows if we're going to go be with Him or not.

The sheep. It doesn't matter who the sheep belonged to when it's lost and a wolf gets to it. It's dead. It should have stayed with the shepherd.

God wants a relationship. We either have it or we don't.
You break fellowship? That means I'm not speaking to God anymore?
I'm not speaking to God anymore = I'm no longer in relationship with Him.

Adam spoke to God.
He had a relationship with Him.
After eating the fruit, Adam didn't speak to Him anymore (after the last speech God gave him).

Because the relationship was over.

 

[Cygnus]

It is all over based on the context of Hebrews 6, whose context begins in Hebrews 3, and is about Jews who return to Judaism, after being born again and Spirit filled.

They no longer have any sacrifice for sin.

That is a different context altogether.

Same thing Jesus taught in Luke 8:13

JLB

Hebrews 6 is a difficult portion of scripture.

 

[GodsGrace]

Don’t feel like the lone stranger, I’m still waiting for him to answer my question.


JLB

Some posters have funny answers...

 

[for_his_glory]

The lost sheep are important to find and lead back to the flock, but some lost sheep will never be found as they never came to the knowledge of truth.

2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
I know this is only one verse out of the whole context, but this one verse is the reason why they become lost and never found as they refuse to be found for their lack of knowledge as Satan tries all he can within them to keep them lost.

 

[JLB]

Dirtfarmer,
I don't see fellowship in the N.T.
If you could post some verses, I'd really appreciate it.
God doesn't know fellowship, He knows if we're going to go be with Him or not.

The sheep. It doesn't matter who the sheep belonged to when it's lost and a wolf gets to it. It's dead. It should have stayed with the shepherd.

God wants a relationship. We either have it or we don't.
You break fellowship? That means I'm not speaking to God anymore?
I'm not speaking to God anymore = I'm no longer in relationship with Him.

Adam spoke to God.
He had a relationship with Him.
After eating the fruit, Adam didn't speak to Him anymore (after the last speech God gave him).

Because the relationship was over.

Kinda like a branch that is connected to the Vine it is in relationship with.

I don’t know of a branch that fellowships with a Vine.

If the branch is removed from the Vine it receives life from, then the relationship is over, and the branch will wither and be cast into the fire and burned.


The intent of throwing the withered branch into the fire, is to destroy it in the fire.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

But if losing salvation is the same as never having it would that person still have the HS?......and if they did would that not indicate that they were still saved?

Those were just examples, nothing more.

I agree with you, except for the 'debated' part.....

Again, I agree but the discussion is on can/how we lose salvation. I don't believe we can as long as we were saved in the first place.

Your first question is for JLB. All I'll say is: Yes. Losing salvation is the same as never having had it. You lost it. You don't have it anymore. And as for the Holy Spirit, he does not reside in a lost person.

As to the examples: You stated 3 conditions whereby a person may become lost. They were correct. We agree on that.

I don't know what you mean by "the debated part".

Your last sentence is telling me that once one is saved, he is saved forever.
Even if he loses his faith in Jesus and returns to A LIFE OF SIN?
Then why does Paul exhort us not to live a life of sin:
1 Corinthians 5:9-12

AND:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11

9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
NASB

If the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God and one returns to a life of unrighteousness, how will he be able to inherit the kingdom of God?

 

[JLB]

The lost sheep are important to find and lead back to the flock, but some lost sheep will never be found as they never came to the knowledge of truth.

It seems you are talking about something different than the subject of this thread.

It sounds like you are conflating sheep with the tares, of the parable of the wheat and tares.

I’m referring to sheep that belong to Jesus, Christians, brothers in Christ, who become lost.

The prodigal son is an example.

He became lost, but returned to the Father and was reconciled, in which he became “found”.

He was spiritually dead, then became alive again.

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’” Luke 15:32

• for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.

Lost = Sinner who is need of repentance; spiritually dead to God, in need of salvation, reconciliation to God.

Found = Someone who is reconciled to God; saved. Spiritually alive.


4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

• I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:7

JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Kinda like a branch that is connected to the Vine it is in relationship with.

I don’t know of a branch that fellowships with a Vine.

If the branch is removed from the Vine it receives life from, then the relationship is over, and the branch will wither and be cast into the fire and burned.


The intent of throwing the withered branch into the fire, is to destroy it in the fire.


JLB

Exactly. And there are so many verses for this:
Mathew 7:19
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

John 15:1-6
John 15:5-6
Jesus is the vine, we are the branches. If we do not abide in Him, we are gathered as a branch, we dry us, gathered and cast into the fire.

 

[JLB]

Hebrews 6 is a difficult portion of scripture.

Yes sir.

I agree with you that it is misinterpreted.

 

[for_his_glory]

It seems you are talking about something different than the subject of this thread.

It sounds like you are conflating sheep with the tares, of the parable of the wheat and tares.

I’m referring to sheep that belong to Jesus, Christians, brothers in Christ, who become lost.

The prodigal son is an example.

He became lost, but returned to the Father and was reconciled, in which he became “found”.

He was spiritually dead, then became alive again.

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’” Luke 15:32

• for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.

Lost = Sinner who is need of repentance; spiritually dead to God, in need of salvation, reconciliation to God.

Found = Someone who is reconciled to God; saved. Spiritually alive.


4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

• I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:7

JLB

No, I am saying just what I said. some lost sheep go deaf to their masters voice and fall off the narrow path never to return. I've known personally people that were Spiritually born again on fire for the Lord with great faith and very learned and full of the Spirit of God, but for whatever the circumstance that came in their life they up and left faith as they no longer believed anymore and blasphemed against the Holy Spirit. Even though they were reached out to they still chose to completely walk away. I don't believe in OSAS.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Hi Dirtfarmer, It grieves me of those who think they can lose THEIR salvation. The Holy Spirit is a permanent possession (Guaranteed) in which we are SEALED!!!) (Eph. 1:13-15). Many of the Scripture that people use to try to defend they can lose their salvation are meant for the SELF righteous and DECEIVED. How can a man that is Justified, sanctified, righteous in Jesus Christ, and Born of the Spirit, and, the promise of never loosing us out of his hands, lose his Salvation? (Romans 3:21-30) (Rom. 8: 14-39), Not my God and Savior Lord Jesus Christ. Now, there are those who hear the way and the knowledge of Salvation, and how to escaped the wrath to come, but instead, return to the mud like a pig or a dog to vomit. Theses Scriptures are clear that these people are not saved or never were, The word washes us, it is God who saves us in Jesus Christ. You can know the Truth, and not be saved. (2 Peter 2:15-22) (2 Peter 2:1-22). We were saved to be God's workmanship to the world, representing and conformed to the image of Christ to do good works...so there is nothing to boast about, (Rom. 3:26-30) nor are the works akin to keep our salvation (Eph. 2:4-10). The word is Spiritual, not carnal. Too many read the book by the flesh.

In His eternal mercy for me, you and all who have trusted in Christ, and His promise to keep us. I know no other way of Salvation, nor have I ever been abandoned by the Holy Spirit, But I have as a babe surely grieved and hindered Him many times, but he never ever left me.

In God's Eternal Grace
Douglas Summers

Praise God for the truth of His Word!

 

[JLB]

No, I am saying just what I said. some lost sheep go deaf to their masters voice and fall off the narrow path never to return.

I would respectfully, disagree with this statement.

If you said some sheep go deaf and fall off...
Then I would I would agree.

But you said some lost sheep go deaf and fall off...

If they are lost, then by default they are no where near their master, but have wandered and become lost.

Lost is a term that describes a separation from, or a disconnection in relationship.

Thinking that lost sheep are still with the Master and the herd doesn’t really make sense... to me anyway.





JLB

 

[th1b.taylor]

No, I am saying just what I said. some lost sheep go deaf to their masters voice and fall off the narrow path never to return. I've known personally people that were Spiritually born again on fire for the Lord with great faith and very learned and full of the Spirit of God, but for whatever the circumstance that came in their life they up and left faith as they no longer believed anymore and blasphemed against the Holy Spirit. Even though they were reached out to they still chose to completely walk away. I don't believe in OSAS.

And it is both good and it is sad at the same time that the Lost, by far, outnumber the saved in Church (as per a Barna Survey of the Faithful inside the Cross Denominational American Church). There are many pretenders in the Church and some of them are the Pastor, I know one of them andhe has been removed from the Pastorate, forever.

 

[for_his_glory]

I would respectfully, disagree with this statement.

If you said some sheep go deaf and fall off...
Then I would I would agree.

But you said some lost sheep go deaf and fall off...

If they are lost, then by default they are no where near their master, but have wandered and become lost.

Lost is a term that describes a separation from, or a disconnection in relationship.

Thinking that lost sheep are still with the Master and the herd doesn’t really make sense... to me anyway.





JLB

I never said the lost sheep are still with the master. How can something that is lost still be with. So leave out the word lost in what I said as lost sheep and just make it sheep that have gone deaf in the sense they are ignoring the words of the master. They do become lost and never found again as stated in the other post.

 

[JLB]

I never said the lost sheep are still with the master. How can something that is lost still be with.

Exactly.

Here is what you said -

No, I am saying just what I said. some lost sheep go deaf to their masters voice and fall off the narrow path never to return. I've known personally people that were Spiritually born again on fire for the Lord with great faith and very learned and full of the Spirit of God, but for whatever the circumstance that came in their life they up and left faith as they no longer believed anymore and blasphemed against the Holy Spirit. Even though they were reached out to they still chose to completely walk away. I don't believe in OSAS.

Sheep fall off the narrow path, and

Lost sheep do not fall off the narrow path, as the are lost “because” they stray from the narrow path.

Lost by default means they are not on the path to begin with.


JLB

 

[Douglas Summers]

Praise God for the truth of His Word!

Praise The Lord Bill, For He is worthy to be praised.

 

[for_his_glory]

Exactly.

Here is what you said -



Sheep fall off the narrow path, and

Lost sheep do not fall off the narrow path, as the are lost “because” they stray from the narrow path.

Lost by default means they are not on the path to begin with.


JLB

Have you ever heard of a literal sheep actually straying (falling) off the path that the Shepard is leading them on. It happens quite a bit. So is it with the sheep in the scriptures that stray away from the flock. Lost is lost until it's found, but sometimes it can not be found.

 

[JLB]

Have you ever heard of a literal sheep actually straying (falling) off the path

Yes.

A lost sheep, however has already strayed off the path.


JLB