D
Dave Slayer
Guest
Should Christians drink wine? Is it Biblical? Would Jesus condone it?
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Depends if you think that Jesus was called a "winebibber" for drinking grape juice.
Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold, a gluttonous man and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! And wisdom is justified by her works.
Also its a bit strange for the Bible to warn against not drinking too much grape juice.
1Ti 3:8 Deacons in like manner must be grave, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
Also the ladies can have a bit of wine, again not too much
Tit 2:3 that aged women likewise be reverent in demeanor, not slanderers nor enslaved to much wine, teachers of that which is good;
It really does not make sense to say "nor enslaved to much grape juice" LOL
C
Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold, a gluttonous man and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! And wisdom is justified by her works.
Also its a bit strange for the Bible to warn against not drinking too much grape juice.
1Ti 3:8 Deacons in like manner must be grave, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
Also the ladies can have a bit of wine, again not too much
Tit 2:3 that aged women likewise be reverent in demeanor, not slanderers nor enslaved to much wine, teachers of that which is good;
It really does not make sense to say "nor enslaved to much grape juice" LOL
C
F
follower of Christ
Guest
a study from my website.
This word is:
Here we have Paul INSTRUCTION Timothy to not only drink water, but also to drink wine for his stomachs sake.
Paul would surely do no such thing as to CAUSE another to sin or stumble.
The wine IS fermented and so it CANNOT be sinful simply to drink fermented wine.
2.0
Yet again....
*IF* any man wishes to be in leadership in the church he must not be given to MUCH wine. Notice it does not say 'he must not drink', but the wording MEANS what it very plainly states...that he cannot drink a lot...to excess.
There should be an absolute prohibition here *IF* fermented wine is a problem.
And *IF* this was about grape juice the statement again makes no sense....who cares if a guy likes a lot of Welchs ?
We see the EXACT same thing said by Paul about older women...
Tit 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Same words as before;
Yet the restriction is about MUCH wine...NOT an all out prohibition of it.
3.0
And once more...
Cant very well have EXCESS if wine is entirely PROHIBITED, now can we...[/quote:npn15qub]
This word is:
The statement 'be not DRUNK with WINE' shows us conclusively that it is FERMENTED wine that is being discussed. The statement has literally NO meaning unless the wine IS fermented.
Here we have Paul INSTRUCTION Timothy to not only drink water, but also to drink wine for his stomachs sake.
Its the same word as in the previous passage where it is conclusively shown that 'wine' IS fermented and can cause drunkeness.
So *IF* drinking wine is defined AS sin, Paul is willfully and purposefully instruction and causing Timothy to COMMIT sin.
Paul would surely do no such thing as to CAUSE another to sin or stumble.
The wine IS fermented and so it CANNOT be sinful simply to drink fermented wine.
2.0
Yet again....
*IF* any man wishes to be in leadership in the church he must not be given to MUCH wine. Notice it does not say 'he must not drink', but the wording MEANS what it very plainly states...that he cannot drink a lot...to excess.
There should be an absolute prohibition here *IF* fermented wine is a problem.
And *IF* this was about grape juice the statement again makes no sense....who cares if a guy likes a lot of Welchs ?
We see the EXACT same thing said by Paul about older women...
Tit 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Same words as before;
*IF* this was about grape juice the statement again makes no sense...grape juice isnt going to hurt anyone. There would be NO sense in restriction consumption of UNfermented JUICE !
Yet the restriction is about MUCH wine...NOT an all out prohibition of it.
3.0
And once more...
it is the EXCESS of wine that is condemned.
Cant very well have EXCESS if wine is entirely PROHIBITED, now can we...[/quote:npn15qub]
I
Imagican
Guest
agreed foc. So many for so long have contended that the wine that Christ drank was some form of 'grape juice' with NO alcohol. The ONLY reason that this is DONE is for their OWN weakness over alcohol.
For thousands of years, one of the MOST common and useful drugs on the planet WAS alcohol. Used for anything from pain to stomach problems. It was pretty much a 'miracle drug'.
Drunkeness? Yep, that too. If used to excess, it certain can cause drunkeness or EVEN DEATH. But then, I bet if you ate a bottle of tylenol it too could cause some pretty devistating effects.
When Christ produced his FIRST miracle, it was stated that the wine that He produced from water was BETTER than that served FIR$T. Wine offered up at Jewish weddings was NOT GRAPE JUICE.
So, Paul is offering advice concerning the consumption of wine that CONTAINED ALCOHOL. And notice HOW he states it: For thine ailments and FOR THY STOMACHS sake. The second would indicate for the PLEASURE or TASTE of it.
Blessings,
MEC
For thousands of years, one of the MOST common and useful drugs on the planet WAS alcohol. Used for anything from pain to stomach problems. It was pretty much a 'miracle drug'.
Drunkeness? Yep, that too. If used to excess, it certain can cause drunkeness or EVEN DEATH. But then, I bet if you ate a bottle of tylenol it too could cause some pretty devistating effects.
When Christ produced his FIRST miracle, it was stated that the wine that He produced from water was BETTER than that served FIR$T. Wine offered up at Jewish weddings was NOT GRAPE JUICE.
So, Paul is offering advice concerning the consumption of wine that CONTAINED ALCOHOL. And notice HOW he states it: For thine ailments and FOR THY STOMACHS sake. The second would indicate for the PLEASURE or TASTE of it.
Blessings,
MEC
Hugo
Member
I agree, I don't find the unfermented grape juice argument convincing at all. Some SDA guy wrote a book that promoted and helped to popularize this view. Go figure.Cornelius said:
Some opponents also make a big deal out of the fact that biblical wine probably had a lower alcohol content that modern wine. However, this has little relevance to the discussion, because it depends on how much is consumed!
Another view says that while it is not inherently wrong, that in these times it is best for believers to avoid alcohol. They generally think it destroys their "witness." I disagree with them but I'll respect the fact that they generally don't look down on or push their view onto other believers.
I think that scripture as a whole encourages moderate consumption.
I don't see that Christians have a choice in the matter!
The scriptures tell me that the 'fruit of the vine' that Jesus partook of, and then commanded us to 'this do', was indeed fermented grape juice!
So, I see it as bound on Christians to take at least one sip of fermented grape juice, wine, each time they participate in the communion rite!
In Christ,
Pogo
The scriptures tell me that the 'fruit of the vine' that Jesus partook of, and then commanded us to 'this do', was indeed fermented grape juice!
So, I see it as bound on Christians to take at least one sip of fermented grape juice, wine, each time they participate in the communion rite!
In Christ,
Pogo
D
Dave Slayer
Guest
Should Churches serve alcoholic wine for communion? Is it Biblical?
F
follower of Christ
Guest
one of my dearest friends and previous mentors subscribes to the grape juice theory.Hugo said:
Without refrigeration, I wonder how a constant grape crop would have been produced to keep so many in fresh, unfermented grape juice ?
I dont think it destroys ones witness, but I do think that Paul would tell us that its better not to drink rather than cause a weak brother to stumble.
I dont drink because of the disease I have, but if I did Id simply refrain from having any wine around such weak brethren.
F
follower of Christ
Guest
Interesting point.Pogo said:
Myself I believe that it is the symbolism that Jesus is presenting, so I dont think that it matters if the wine is fermented or not.
Yes, I do believe that when Jesus drink wine, it was not just grape juice. It was real aged wine. Remember when at the wedding party they ran out of wine. Jesus even made some Himself, usually I don’t care for wine but, I would love to have tasted Jesus’ wine. I’m sure it was the best wine there ever was in all of existence.
I
Imagican
Guest
duval said:
Untrue, for it SPECIFICALLY states that it was WINE.
Blessings,
MEC
P
Paidion
Guest
If it's the symbolism that matters, then let's look at that symbolism.
Jesus said, "How is it that you fail to perceive that I did not speak about bread? Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees." Matthew 16:11
Then they understood that he did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees. Matthew 16:12
Leaven (yeast) was symbolic of evil --- in this case the evil teaching of the Pharisees.
... you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our paschal lamb, has been sacrificed. Let us, therefore, celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. (I Corinthians 5:5-8)
Having a man as part of a Christian assembly who is copulating with his step-mother, puts a blemish upon the assembly. It may "leaven the whole lump" ---- make the entire assembly evil.
The feast was to be celebrated with unleavened bread (bread without yeast)
The bread and wine of communion symbolize the body and blood of Christ. Christ was completely without sin throughout his earthly journey. That which symbolizes Him should be completely without leaven (yeast), the symbol of evil. So unleavened bread should be used at communion.
Grape juice contains yeast cells. Wine does not. Although wine is made with a certain type of yeast which ferments grape juice, after the fermentation has been completed, the alchohol in the wine kills the yeast and then the yeast and other impurities sink to the bottom of the container. The pure wine is taken off; it contains no yeast cells. For this reason, fermented wine should be used at communion.
F
follower of Christ
Guest
...and where is the distinction between this supposed unfermented wine made in the text itself, friend ?duval said:
The internal evidence very much presents that wine is wine is wine wherever the word appears in scripture, and that it IS talking about fermented wine.
There is no need to restrict the use of UNfermented grape juice. In fact, I hear its pretty healthy for a person. ;)
So if its not fermented, then WHY does scripture talk so much about not using it excessively ?
Any thoughts or evidence to present ?
F
follower of Christ
Guest
I'll definitely do some research on this point. If its accurate, then you have possibly proven a point, one which is much further reaching than just an internet discussion seeing that every church Ive ever taken communion at uses unfermented juice.Paidion said:
If its the yeast that is the point, which with the bread we can be very certain that it is, then it would make very good sense that the same might apply to the wine.
I will certainly look into this aspect of the discussion.
Thanks for tossing this into the mix, Paidion
Something to think about...
I
Imagican
Guest
1 Timothy 4
1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
6If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.
7But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.
When we take what is offered above, and COUPLE it with the words of Paul concerning the drinking of wine for 'thy stomach's sake', we can SEE that those that INSIST that 'driking wine' is WRONG are the one's who in their OFFERING are WRONG.
We can see the use of wine THROUGHOUT the Bible. Drunkeness IS Wrong, (not that it of ITSELF is able to destroy one's relationship, but it is certainly able to HINDER one's walk), but driking wine is NOT a SIN or WRONG behavior. So long as done with thanksgiving, NOTHING that we can partake of IN AND OF ITSELF is 'unclean or WRONG'.
And note how Paul explains his point:
REFUSE profane and OLD WIVES' FABLES.
That is EXACTLY what we deal with when those 'come along' and attempt to ALTER such things as, " Jesus DIDN'T drink fermented wine. That is one 'going OUT OF THEIR WAY' in an attempt to ALTER their brother's understanding for the sake of SELF.
In other words, if alcohol has a 'bad place' in YOUR walk, then it is YOU that should abstain. If your brother stumbles over the SAME problem, then you should encourage HIM to abstain as well. But for the REST of us, we have been TOLD that it's a GOOD THING to 'drink a little wine' for thy STOMACH'S sake, (the pleasure that can be derived from it's FLAVOR and effect), although NOT to excess.
1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
6If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.
7But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.
When we take what is offered above, and COUPLE it with the words of Paul concerning the drinking of wine for 'thy stomach's sake', we can SEE that those that INSIST that 'driking wine' is WRONG are the one's who in their OFFERING are WRONG.
We can see the use of wine THROUGHOUT the Bible. Drunkeness IS Wrong, (not that it of ITSELF is able to destroy one's relationship, but it is certainly able to HINDER one's walk), but driking wine is NOT a SIN or WRONG behavior. So long as done with thanksgiving, NOTHING that we can partake of IN AND OF ITSELF is 'unclean or WRONG'.
And note how Paul explains his point:
REFUSE profane and OLD WIVES' FABLES.
That is EXACTLY what we deal with when those 'come along' and attempt to ALTER such things as, " Jesus DIDN'T drink fermented wine. That is one 'going OUT OF THEIR WAY' in an attempt to ALTER their brother's understanding for the sake of SELF.
In other words, if alcohol has a 'bad place' in YOUR walk, then it is YOU that should abstain. If your brother stumbles over the SAME problem, then you should encourage HIM to abstain as well. But for the REST of us, we have been TOLD that it's a GOOD THING to 'drink a little wine' for thy STOMACH'S sake, (the pleasure that can be derived from it's FLAVOR and effect), although NOT to excess.