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Should Christians observe the OT feasts?

(Deu 29:1, 14-15 NIV) - "(1) These are the terms of the covenant the LORD commanded Moses to make with the Israelites in Moab, in addition to the covenant he had made with them at Horeb. ... (14) I am making this covenant, with its oath, not only with you (15) who are standing here with us today in the presence of the LORD our God but also with those who are not here today."
(Deu 30:6, 11-14 NIV) - "(6) The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live. ... (11) Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. (12) It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" (13) Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" (14) No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it."
The covenant that was made in Moab was extended. The hearts of the Gentiles are circumcized by the Spirit of God and there is no need for them to cut the flesh which is but a symbol of the heart work that God would perform. This fact (that there is no need for Gentiles to follow Jewish customs) was clarified in Paul's epistle to the Galatians:

Paul said:
(Gal 2:9-16 NIV) - "(9) James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews. (10) All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.

(11) When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. (12) Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. (13) The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

(14) When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

(15) "We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' (16) know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified."
Cephas was rebuked because he refused to eat with Gentiles. He had already been shown that Gentiles were admitted as brothers in Christ.

(Act 10:44-48 KJV) - "(44) While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. (45) And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. (46) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, (47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? (48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days."
In the vision prior to Peter's journey to Cornelius he was shown, "And the voice [spake] unto him again the second time, 'What God hath cleansed, [that] call not thou common'." Gentiles had been admitted into the Kingdom of God and Peter was shown that they too were baptized by the Holy Spirit, having been made clean by the Lamb of God.
 
Not true.
For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. "It is not in heaven, that you should say, '(C)Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. (Deu. 30:11-14 NASB)

Six hundred? You think that's a lot? I looked up the US criminal code, which you can read, in it's entirety, at law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/. Would you like to take a guess at how many individual sections it has, each dealing with a specific crime? Six hundred? Less than that, maybe? Six hundred is such a large number. It can't be that many... or can it? Wan't to know how many criminal laws there are - federal criminal laws, that is? There are more if you count the laws of individual states. Are you ready for it?...

There are 6005 - six thousand and five - sections in the federal criminal code. And that's just federal law. Add to that the laws of your state, and you have even more. Then add things that are not part of the criminal code, such as traffic laws, building codes, zoning regulations and so on, and you have hundreds of thousands of laws you have to keep. If you think it's impossible to keep a whole 600 laws, then I wish you good luck staying out of prison.
some of the laws theo no christian could keep. ie slay the witch? the slay the amorite . the moabite. we cant kill the enemies of christ for sinning. that isnt the way.
 
We are not commanded to keep the Jewish feasts, indeed they were never meant for Gentiles.

Regarding the OP, I'm glad that everyone is entertaining themselves with a quote of mine pulled out of context from another thread. The context of my post from the other thread was that the false teacher could not keep a calendar correctly which is straightforwardly calculated. In other words, I was claiming someone was so brazen as to say 2 + 2 = 5 in effect.

I sure hope that the OP'er does not interpret the bible the same way, but in all probability from what I am reading they do ---- anyone with a fundamental 101 understanding of the bible understands that the feasts were prophetic of God's plan for man and his salvation. Nobody here is saying to keep them legalistically. They are to be observed for what they entail being fulfilled in Christ. They lay a road map for what is to occur yet as 4 of the feasts have not been fulfilled yet. Simple as that.

For those of you who say they were meant for Israel and not for Gentiles, what do you think the whole point of calling Israel was about? Anyone sit down and think as to the purpose of calling a specific people? You can't separate them into apples and oranges. There is cause and effect in God's plan here. Put two and two together and don't come up with 5.
 
Look at it again.
For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you (Deu. 30:11 NASB)
It's talking about the commandments God had just recently given them. Also, I wasn't using this "to support the keeping of the Law of Moses", but to reply to pard's comment thatt the law of God is too difficult to keep. It clearly is not. God himself says it is not too difficult to keep.
Peter said that the law of Moses was a yoke that neither the fathers nor those living at that time were able to keep, the Spirit also said not to put the law of Moses on the gentile christians.
 
I like BBQ!
I like celebrations!
I love rejoicing in the Lord!

So you're saying I can combine all 3 and give thanks for all that Christ has done & will do?

At Passover I can have a BBQ with friends & family celebrating & giving thanks for the completed of the work on the Cross & partake in the Lord's supper in remembrance of Him?

At Pentecost I can have a BBQ with friends & family celebrating & giving thanks for the Holy Spirit coming upon Believers & the promise of Christ's return since it is connected to the Wheat Harvest?

At the Feast of Tabernacles I can have a BBQ with friends & family celebrating & giving thanks for Christ's fulfilling the Davidic Covenant of the "better tabernacle" & the promise of our inheritance to the true Kingdom dwelling forever with God?

Fire up the grill, ba'by!
 
I'm with Tim. I don't see how celebrating God on the same time as the Jewish festivals is bad. If it really offends you that much I'll call it something besides Passover... Maybe Passunder? :lol

Besides in the NT Paul talks about how you don't have to follow the OT stuff, but if it is a stumbling block for someone then you can do it. Like with the food. You don't have to eat kosher, but like you should if it would be offensive to some brother in Christ. So if I am hanging out with my Messianic friends and it would be offensive to not feast for God then well I don't wanna make them stumble.
 
I like BBQ!
I like celebrations!
I love rejoicing in the Lord!

So you're saying I can combine all 3 and give thanks for all that Christ has done & will do?

At Passover I can have a BBQ with friends & family celebrating & giving thanks for the completed of the work on the Cross & partake in the Lord's supper in remembrance of Him?

At Pentecost I can have a BBQ with friends & family celebrating & giving thanks for the Holy Spirit coming upon Believers & the promise of Christ's return since it is connected to the Wheat Harvest?

At the Feast of Tabernacles I can have a BBQ with friends & family celebrating & giving thanks for Christ's fulfilling the Davidic Covenant of the "better tabernacle" & the promise of our inheritance to the true Kingdom dwelling forever with God?

Fire up the grill, ba'by!

Seriously, Tonkatim. That's a great idea! See? I'm no legalist. Actually, Passover/Unleavened Bread was launched by the Lord Himself in what we now call "communion" and I honestly believe that can be kept in the home just as Passover. I'm not suggesting that Christians keep the Passover Haggadah.

Now, who says that learning what feasts mean and worship isn't fun? If Jesus was here in the flesh, he'd join ya! (And sure He does in Spirit) That also sheds true light on the verse "Let no man judge.... regarding feasts, etc" The judgment was the manner of keeping them.
 
Not true.
Post 1 defending the position that the text from Deuteronomy is not really about a keeping of the Law of Moses:

Here is a well-known text from Deuteronomy 30

if you obey the LORD your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and soul. For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12"It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13"Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14"But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.

At a superficial reading, this text seems to be about the Law of Moses – there is the clear reference to the “book of the Lawâ€, and how it can indeed be kept. But I will now argue that there are powerful reasons to believe that this is not the case, and that Moses is talking about something other than the Law of Moses. In so doing, I fully realize that I am working against the literal sense of the text.

However, in many forms of literary expression, it is not the author’s intent to be taken literally. And I suggest that this is the case here. Consider the book “Animal Farm†– an allegory where farm animals represent elements of early 20th century Russia. The author certainly does not intend to be understood as telling us something about farm animals, even though that is how the text reads “literallyâ€.

I suggest that a similar literary device is being deployed here by Moses. Moses is not really writing about the Law of Moses here, even though he appears to be. Instead, I suggest Moses is talking about a keeping of a different law , by a different people, but has committed to a kind of literary device where he speaks of a keeping of the Law of Moses to make a point about an entirely different law. Again, it needs to be acknowledged that some literary devices do this – they speak directly of one thing, but are really addressing something else altogether. So the possibility I am arguing for cannot be dismissed a priori.

Next post shortly....
 
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Post 2 about Deuteronomy 30:10-14

There are a number of major problems with taking Moses here as telling us about how the Law of Moses can be kept. These problems can only be seen if one has an eye for the entire Biblical narrative – it is the “big picture” that shows us that Moses is not really talking about the Law of Moses here.

One of the problems is the narrative structure of the overall address that Moses is setting forth. Moses’ address is about the future of Israel, and the specific statement he makes in 30:10-14 (above) is at least arguably a statement about what will be the case at the time of covenant renewal. In the verses which precede the text in question, Moses has been telling Israel that, at some point in the future, she will be unfaithful to the covenant, but that God will then restore her and renew the covenant. Note the material that leads up to verses 10-14:

1So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you, 2and you return to the LORD your God and obey Him with all your heart and soul according to all that I command you today, you and your sons, 3then the LORD your God will restore you from captivity, and have compassion on you, and will gather you again from all the peoples where the LORD your God has scattered you. 4"If your outcasts are at the ends of the earth, from there the LORD your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you back. 5"The LORD your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it; and He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers. 6"Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live. 7"The LORD your God will inflict all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. 8"And you shall again obey the LORD, and observe all His commandments which I command you today. 9"Then the LORD your God will prosper you abundantly in all the work of your hand, in the offspring of your body and in the offspring of your cattle and in the produce of your ground, for the LORD will again rejoice over you for good, just as He rejoiced over your fathers.

Right at the outset, we see that Moses is talking about the future. So this should already be a clue that we need to be careful in how we read this text. Verse 1 refers explicitly to a time of banishment. From our perspective, we can safely conclude that Moses is prophesying about the Babylonian exile – an event in the far future from Moses’ perspective. Verses 2 through 5 further amplify on the exile and hold out the promise of return from exile. If we know our Biblical narrative, we know that Moses is talking about a promised return of Israel to her land following the Babylonian captivity.

Perhaps even more telling, Moses speaks of a circumcision of the heart that will happen. When does this happen? Clearly Paul thinks this occurs when the Holy Spirit is set loose among God’s people after the resurrection. Even more evidence that, in verses 10 – 14, Moses is not to be understood as speaking of something necessarily true of the people of his own time. So when this treatment of exile and then return from exile is followed by a statement about being able to “keep the Law”, we must realize that it is at least possible that verses 10-14 describe a keeping of the “law” that lies in the future –at the time of return from exile. And the “circumcision of the heart” language suggests that this “keeping of the law” may, repeat may, be something that only be accomplished after the Cross.

Now to be fair, it is possible that, after speaking of events in future in the first 9 verses, Moses then returns to the present and tells the people of his own time that they can indeed keep the Law of Moses. However, this possibility is ruled out in light of how Paul uses the Deuteronomy 30:10-14 text in Romans 10. We will then see that Paul sees Deuteronomy 30:10-14 as something that can only be true through Christ and, importantly, that the “law” that the Deuteronomy text refers to, cannot be the Law of Moses. Why not?

Precisely because it is a law that Gentiles, too, can keep.

Next post later.....
 
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Post 3 about Deuteronomy 30:10-14:

In Romans 10, Paul directly quotes the very text that we are talking about (Deuteronomy 30:10-14). I will now argue that the way Paul uses this text shows that he believes the text to be about what will happen at the time of covenant renewal, which Paul sees as occurring in the work of the Cross. This works strongly against a literal reading of the Deuteronomy text in which we see Paul as speaking about the keeping of the Law of Moses.

The argument has three strands: (1) In Romans 9 and 10, Paul retells the covenant history of Abraham and quotes the Deuteronomy text at precisely the point in time that corresponds to Pauls’ own time. This works strongly against the position that the Deuteronomy text is really about a keeping of the Law of Moses in the distant past (Paul’s past, that is); (2) Even apart from the “time sequence” argument of point number 1, Paul uses the Deuteronomy text in a manner that shows that he sees it as being fulfilled specifically in Christ. Again, this works against the view that this text is about keeping the Law of Moses; and (3) Paul sees the Deuteronomy text as being fulfilled for both Jew and Gentile. If the Deuteronomy text were really about the Law of Moses, it could only be fulfilled in those under the Law of Moses, that is, Jews.

These strands collectively form a powerful case – Paul, at least, sees the Deuteronomy text as being only fulfilled at the time of the cross, for a people that includes Gentiles, and after the Law of Moses has come to an end. This means that the Deuteronomy text cannot be about what it appears to be about - a keeping of the Law of Moses by people in Moses’ own time.

Next post later.....
 
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Post 4 about Deuteronomy 30:10-14:

Now for an elaboration of the first strand (refer preceding post). Here is the text from Romans 10 where Paul directly quotes from Deuteronomy 30:10-14:

But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE (I)ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,…

Now, Romans 9 through the first half of Romans 10 is a re-telling of the entire covenant history of Israel from Abraham to the exile and beyond. To the extent that this is shown to be the case, this places the fulfillment of the quotation from Deuteronomy at Paul’s own time. This works against a reading of the Deuteronomy 30 text as being about keeping the Law of Moses in Paul’s past (e.g. the time of Moses).

Paul’s re-telling of the narrative of Israel is detailed and is presented in perfect chronological sequence and is summarized following:

(a) In Romans 9, verses 7 through 13, we get Abraham, then Isaac, then Jacob. This is the beginning of the Israel story, set forth in precisely the correct sequence;

(b) In verses 15 through 18, we get Moses, Pharoah, and the events associated with the exodus;

(c) In verse 20, Paul is clearly alluding to the prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah and their declarations that, like a potter, God has the right to mold Israel as He sees fit. Paul has moved past the exodus and is now in the times of the prophets – the covenant history continues;

(d) In verse 25, Paul quotes from Hosea 2, a text which deals with the threat of exile and the promise of restoration. And what happens at the time of restoration? – God will say to those who were not His people (read: the Gentiles) that they are now indeed part of His family –this will be relevant to strand 3 of my argument. This is clearly an allusion to various covenant promises in Genesis where Abraham is told that his seed – the Jews – will be “a light and blessing to the nations”;

(e) In verses 27 and then again in verse 29, we have a reference to Isaiah’s teaching about a remnant who will come out from exile;

(f) And, of course, verses 31 to 33 bring us to Paul’s time – the Jews have stumbled over the Christ.

(g) So, in chapter 9 we have a detailed re-telling of Israel’s story, from Abraham to Isaac, to Jacob, to the exodus, to God’s warning about reshaping Israel like a pot, to exile and the promise of restoration, and finally to the Jewish rejection of the Christ.

(h) But the story does not end there. In 10:1-3, Paul continues with his treatment of the sad state of Israel in the present time (that is, Paul’s time). Clearly, the Jews are still in exile, even if they are physically back in Palestine.

(i) Now every Jew who knows his Old Testament should have been able to predict what comes after exile – covenant renewal! And that is exactly where Paul takes us. In Romans 10:6, he quotes from a famous passage from Deuteronomy that we are discussing.

Now, is this all a coincidence? Has Paul re-told the entire narrative of Israel, presenting all its important elements in the correct order, without intending to set the fulfillment of the Deuteronomy 30:10-14 text in some time other than where it appears in Paul’s chronology? Of course not.

It is therefore already very unlikely that the proper take on the Deuteronomy 30 passage is one which in which the “keeping of the law” described in that text, is about a keeping of the Law of Moses by the people whom Moses was actually addressing.

But this is just the beginning of the case against seeing Deuteronomy 30 as about keeping of the Law of Moses by Moses’ contemporaries.

Next post later.....
 
Post 5 about Deuteronomy 30:10-14:

Now for elaboration of the second strand (see earlier post) – the notion that Paul’s use of the Deuteronomy 30:10-14 text in Romans 10 shows that he sees the Deuteronomy text as being specifically fulfilled in Christ, casting doubt on the literalistic reading which would see the text as saying something about the Jew and the keeping of the Law of Moses in Moses’ own time.

To refresh memory, here is the Deuteronomy text again:

if you obey the LORD your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and soul. For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12"It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13"Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14"But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.

Now here is Paul quoting this text (stuff in italics) in Romans 10:

4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. 5For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Let me dispense with one confusing thing first. Those who would take the Deuteronomy text “literally†– seeing it as saying something about obeying the Law of Moses – will no doubt point out that this “Christ†reading of the Deuteronomy passage in Romans 10 really only focuses on the matter of justification and, therefore, is only saying that obeying the Law of Moses cannot make you righteous. Such a person would no doubt agree – the Law of Moses does not justify. However, so the argument would continue, it still should be followed, and that the Deuteronomy passage shows that this is possible now, just as it was possible at the time Moses made the proclamation.

This misses the point. It is indeed true that Paul is speaking about the matter of justification when he quotes the Deuteronomy passage. However, Paul clearly sees the elements of the Deuteronomy passage as really talking about Jesus, not about the Law of Moses, even though Moses does indeed clearly say that the Law of Moses that is the subject of the treatment. Again, one needs to (1) be open to the usage of literary devices where one thing (in this case, the Law of Moses as the apparent subject of the Deuteronomy text) really stands for another (Jesus); and (2) read the Deuteronomy passage in light of the entire narrative of Scripture.

So how does Paul interpret the “Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us†part of the Deuteronomy passage? He sees it as being about Jesus, not the Law of Moses: 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down). And the same thing re the “'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it†part: 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE (I)ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)â€

The relevant point is that Paul understands that the Deuteronomy passage actually is talking about Jesus, not the Law of Moses, despite the undeniable fact that, understood in strict isolation, the Deuteronomy passage itself declares that the Law of Moses is at issue. To finish the point, when Paul continues to quote the Deuteronomy passage on the matter of the “Law†being “in the mouth and the heartâ€, we know, from many other things that Paul says elsewhere in Romans and in his other letters, that he is speaking of the Holy Spirit which “replaces†the Law in that it writes the essence of the Law of Moses on the human heart:

6But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter

See? Paul clearly thinks that the time of the Law of Moses has come to an end. People will no doubt try to argue that its time as a way to become righteous has come to an end, but that we should still follow it. I suggest that objection does not work, but I will leave that argument for another post.

Again, the relevant point is this: Paul is saying that it is Christ and the Holy Spirit that are what the Deuteronomy passage is really talking about. I politely suggest that Paul would reject any suggestion of a “double meaning†– that the passage was talking about a keeping of the Law of Moses in Moses time and also can be interpreted as being fulfilled in Christ and the Law. Why not a double meaning? Precisely because Paul sees the world fundamentally changing with the advent of Christ and the Spirit – it is only through Christ and the Spirit, and most certainly not through the Law of Moses, that the “word†can be brought to our hearts. Paul, I suggest, would not believe that the Law of Moses can, in any sense, “be written on the heart†as the Deuteronomy passage would suggest on a literal reading. No – “writing†on the human heart is something that the Law was powerless to do – witness the general failure of the nation of Israel and Paul’s general analysis of the Law as functioning only to reveal sin. Only the Spirit can accomplish the writing of €œthe words of God†on the human heart.

Other posts to follow....
 
Post 6 (last one for now) dealing with Deuteronomy 30:10-14:

Now for elaboration of the third strand (see earlier post) – the notion that Paul sees the Deuteronomy 30:10-14 text as fulfilled for both Jew and Gentile, something that works against reading the text as being about the Law of Moses, a law which only Jews can fulfill since they are the only ones to whom the Law of Moses applied.

This strand of the overall argument is relatively easy to make. Here is the relevant Romans 10 text, with the italicized material being the quotation of the Deuteronomy text:

6But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Clearly, the flow of this argument has Paul saying that the “writing on the heart” per the Deuteronomy text is something that can be realized for both Jew and Gentile. This interpretation by Paul does not work If we take the Deuteronomy text as being about the Jew and the keeping of the Law of Moses – Gentiles would then not fall under the implication of the passage. No – Paul sees the Deuteronomy text as fulfilled in his own time.
 
Is it? Absolutely clear?
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (Matt. 5:17-18 KJV)
How clear is that?

(Continued in next post...)
I know this text seems to support your position, but I suggest that, in light of scads of other evidence that the written code has been abolished, a different, but entirely Biblically defensible position is called for:

Jesus was a product of his times and culture and I suggest that we in the modern west have been a little careless in understanding the implications of this. On a surface reading, Matthew 5:18 is indeed a challenge to those of us who think that, at least in a certain specific sense, the Law of Moses has been retired. Those who hold the opposing view have their own challenges to face, such as Ephesians 2:15 (and Romans 7) which, to me, unambiguously declare the abolition of the Law of Moses, at least in terms of “rules and regulationsâ€.

Here is Matthew 5:17-19 in the NASB:

Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

How can one read this text and possibly think that the prescriptions of the Law of Moses do not remain in force, given that heaven and earth are still here?

I think that there is a way to faithfully read this text and still claim that Law of Moses was retired 2000 years ago as Paul seems to so forcefully argue that it was (e.g. Eph 2:15). My proposal hinges on the assertion that in Hebrew culture apocalyptic “end of the world†language was commonly used in a specifically metaphorical mode for the specific purposes of investing commonplace events with their theological significance.

This is not mere speculation – we have concrete evidence that this was so. Isaiah writes:

10For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light

What was going on? Babylon was being destroyed, never to be rebuilt. There are other examples of such metaphorical “end of the world†imagery being used to describe much more “mundane†events within the present space-time manifold.

So it is possible that Jesus is not referring to the destruction of matter, space, and time as the criteria for the retirement of the Law. But what might He mean here? What is the real event for which “heaven and earth passing away†is an apocalyptic metaphor.

I would appeal to the phrase “until all is accomplished†and point the reader to Jesus’ proclamation that “It is accomplished!†as He breathed His last on the Cross. Perhaps this is what Jesus is referring to. I believe that seeing it that way allows us to take Paul at his word in his many statements which clearly denote the work of Jesus as the point in time at which Law of Moses was retired.

I present the above as a plausibility argument that there may be a way to legitimately read Jesus here as not declaring that the Law of Moses will remain in force basically to the end of time.
 
Let me see if I got this straight. The Father says that food can defile a man, but his Son says it can't? Is that right? Is ther, then, a lack of unity in the godhead? Do you think the Father and the Son had a long argument about this, and that Jesus won that argument? Was the Father mistaken? Or might it be that it is you who are mistaken?
Not a valid critique - you overlook the possibility that the food laws were never intended to be followed forever. My position entirely accomodates the establishment of the kosher laws by the father and then the repeal of those laws by the Son.

1. God does indeed establish the kosher food laws (fact);

2. God never intended these laws to be in force forever (Drew assertion);

3. Jesus clearly overturns the food laws (Mark 7 - I will deal with your "context" argument in another post).

If the food laws (and the Law of Moses more generally) was never intended to be in place forever, there is no inconsistency in God the Son repealing these laws at the time prescribed by God the Father.
 
If you look closer, you'll see that you are taking Jesus' words out of context.

Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem. And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault. For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders. And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables. (Mark 7:1-4 KJV)

The disciples were eating bread, not pork or shellfish. Jesus wasn't addressing a debate on whether God's laws were still valid. There was no doubt about that. What he was addressing was the "tradition of the elders", and whether those traditions were valid.
I do not believe this argument works.

There is no doubt that Jesus’ statement “what goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,'†(e.g. in Matthew 15) does indeed arise in the context of a discussion about hand-washing which Jesus Himself generalizes into a critique of the Pharisees for ignoring Torah and embracing man-made rules.

But it is demonstrably an over-simplification to use this fact alone to claim that His statement that “what goes into your mouth cannot make you unclean†is a further elaboration on this same point. Context is not really as restrictive as that. Here are two verses from Matthew 15:

10Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. 11What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' "

Consider the implications of the belief that Jesus is, in fact, not overturning the Levitical food laws, and is instead critiquing the belief that handwashing makes things impure:

1. Premise of this position: Jesus believes that some things (e.g. pigs) that go into your body do indeed make you unclean (He would have to believe this if He is upholding the Levitical food laws).

2. Despite believing this, Jesus uses misleadingly general words to make his case against hand-washing. Instead of saying “food touched by unwashed hands does not make you uncleanâ€, He makes the entirely general statement “What goes into a man’s mouth does not make him ‘unclean’â€. This is a very odd thing to say if you still believe that pigs and other things that can go into your mouth still make you unclean.

3. If Jesus really is critiquing a belief that hand-washing makes things unclean, He should have focused his critique on the belief that foods become impure by virtue of contact with unclean things (like unwashed hands), since that is where the food would attain it status of uncleanness on such a view. But he does not do this – instead He focuses on the “entering the mouth†event.

Imagine a doctor who wanted to give you the message that it was actually safe to eat inherently non-poisonous foods with unwashed hands, because he knows that there no germs on surfaces in this area. But imagine that the doctor also believed it was unsafe to eat, say, mud and other things (because they are inherently poisonous). Would He make this statement to you: “It is not what what enters your mouth that makes you sick,…â€. Of course not! – he knows that mud, etc., still make you sick. And he would not express himself this way even if he were trying to talk you out of your fear that you needed to wash your hands. This is where the context argument falls flat. He would say something like “there are no germs here, so handwashing itself won’t make you sickâ€

4. Consider the second half of Jesus’ statement: “ What comes out of his mouth makes him uncleanâ€. Well, this is also a problem since we have already committed to the notion that Jesus believes that some things going into the mouth pigs, etc., still make you unclean (as per the Levitical food law). Has Jesus forgotten this?

There are so many problems with this that a bald claim of a “handwashing context†is simply unable to solve – we have Jesus making misleading general statements on the “what goes in†side of the equation and we have Him forgetting things on the “what goes out†side of the equation.

People who deploy the “hand-washing context†argument almost seem to believe that Jesus is “not allowed†to shift the conversation in a different direction, as if there was this unwritten rule that such shifts in focus must be explicitly declared. Are they willing to live with all the inchoherences (the 4 points) that this leads to?
 
If you look closer, you'll see that you are taking Jesus' words out of context.

Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem. And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault. For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders. And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables. (Mark 7:1-4 KJV)

The disciples were eating bread, not pork or shellfish. Jesus wasn't addressing a debate on whether God's laws were still valid. There was no doubt about that. What he was addressing was the "tradition of the elders", and whether those traditions were valid.
In Mark 7, Jesus does indeed repudiate the setting aside of God’s Laws in favour of human ones. But Jesus clearly goes beyond this and overturns some of the Levitical food laws:

15there is nothing outside the man which can defile him if it goes into him; but the things which proceed out of the man are what defile the man. 16["If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear."] 17When he had left the crowd and entered the house, His disciples questioned Him about the parable. 18And He said to them, "Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, 19because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?" (Thus He declared all foods clean.)

Jesus really cannot be misunderstood here - he clearly states that all foods are clean. This cannot be reconciled with the Levitical food laws which clearly state some foods are unclean.

So the fact that Jesus also repudiates abandonment of the Law of Moses in favour of man-made laws must not be seen as His only point in the whole chapter. It clearly is not - in addition to repudiating such add-ons, He also declares all foods clean. And that is at variance with the Law of Moses itself, not man's distortions of it.


This may seem incoherent – if Jesus criticizes the substitution of man-made laws for Torah, surely he must be affirming Torah, mustn’t He? The answer is no. It is entirely coherent for Jesus to offer an historical critique – telling the Pharisees that they tossed aside God’s laws and replaced them with human ones – and yet go on to declare the abolition of Torah itself, as He so clearly does here. Jesus’ critique of the Pharisees does not endorse the continued applicability of Torah – He is critiquing their attitude to it in the time of its applicability, which, interestingly, comes to an end in His very declaration that all foods are indeed clean – a clear overturning of Levitical food laws themselves.
 
Drew said:
And Jesus does other things that declare the imminent of the Law of Moses. He suggests that He is the new temple - this is a carefully crafted way of saying that the temple cult is coming to an end. And there are many others - Jesus says things and does things that clearly signify that the time of the Law of Moses is indeed coming to an end.

Theophilus said:
No, that's just what you're reading into his words. I notice that you seem relectant to provide scripture references. Even when you do quote verses, you don't mention chapter, verse and Bible version. This makes it a bit harder to respond to you, which is probably your intent. I haven't memorized the whole Bible, so I would appreciate it if you provided actual references to where things can be found in Scripture, so I can look them up in context. There are two instances where Christ compares himself to the temple, that I can think of and that you might be referring to. In one case, he says he is greater than the temple, and in the other, he says that if they tear down the temple of his body, he will rais it again in 3 days. There is nothing in either account that resembles what you say. If you are referring to something else, please qoute chapter and verse so I can look it up.
Here is a saying by Jesus that I assert shows that He sees Himself specifically as the new temple:

They said to Him, "He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and (A)will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons."

42Jesus said to them, "Did you never read in the Scriptures,
'(B)THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,
THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone
;
THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD,
AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES'?
43"Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.

Jesus is setting Himself in the position of being the foundation of the temple. I suggest that this shows that Jesus sees the time of the temple (and therefore of the Law of Moses) coming to an end.

Not to mention Jesus' action in the temple - overturning the tables, etc. I suspect that you will argue this is simply Jesus being upset over people turning the temple into a "market". Well, this is certainly true, but I suggest it is only part of the truth. Given all that has happened on His way to Jerusalem - many judgements given against Israel - and texts like the one above, Jesus disruption in the temple symbolically enacts the coming end to the temple (and thus to the Law of Moses).

There are many other arguments that can be made about Jesus and His view about the temple. Perhaps if time permits, I will make them.
 
Not a valid critique - you overlook the possibility that the food laws were never intended to be followed forever. My position entirely accomodates the establishment of the kosher laws by the father and then the repeal of those laws by the Son.

1. God does indeed establish the kosher food laws (fact);

2. God never intended these laws to be in force forever (Drew assertion);

3. Jesus clearly overturns the food laws (Mark 7 - I will deal with your "context" argument in another post).

If the food laws (and the Law of Moses more generally) was never intended to be in place forever, there is no inconsistency in God the Son repealing these laws at the time prescribed by God the Father.

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
 
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