Should Christians rethink Hell?

[FreeGrace]

The third overused argument for eternal conscious torment is of course Revelation 20:10.

Oh, really??!

[QUTOE]A person only has to read Revelation 20:10 to see that it doesn't say that the wicked go to hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever.
Here it is: "and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."[/QUOTE]
We ALL know that verse says NOTHING about hell. It does speak of the lake of fire. Again, you keep confusing places. No wonder your view is confused and confusing. It specifically speaks about the lake of fire, where there will be conscious torment night and day forever and ever.

It says the devil, the beast (remember that the beast has seven heads and ten horns, are we forced to take this literally), and the false prophet. I don't think that this verse should be taken literally, BUT EVEN IF IT IS TAKEN LITERALLY, it still doesn't prove that all of the wicked will be tormented alive forever in hell.

otoh, you've failed to prove that those in 20:15 won't suffer the SAME fate as 20:10. There is NO REASON to assume otherwise. Yet, you continue to assume.

At most it only proves that the devil, the beast and the false prophet will be. It is not proof of ECT in Hell.

We're NOT talking about "hell". Which is different than the lake of fire. No wonder you've been unable to follow any of my arguments. Words means vastly different things to you than to me.

Once Matthew 25:46, Luke 16, and Revelation 20:10 are understood, there is no reason not to believe that the wages of sin really is death, just as the Bible says (Romans 6:23) and no reason to not believe the words of John 3:16 "whoever believes in him shall not PERISH but will have ETERNAL LIFE".

Nothing you've said here is arguable. The problem with your view is your skewed understanding of what "death" means AFTER physical death. Does "second" death mean anything to you? Do you think the soul of the unbeliever ceases to exist AFTER physical death? Scripture is clear about souls going to sheol (hell), and Jesus gave us a story about it in Luke regarding Lazarus and a rich man. After His resurrection, no believers go there. All go to heaven. But all unbelievers still go to sheol (hell), awaiting the Great White Throne judgment, where all unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire, also called the SECOND death.

But you don't understand any of this because you won't accept that there is physical and spiritual death. They are different.

There really is no reason at all to believe in the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell.

In fact, there is no reason to accept your view, which you've failed to defend.

 

[chessman]

But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly."​

Peter tells of the fate of the ungodly, they will be judged and destroyed.

...
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.​

Also, from these passages and Rev 20's account of the final judgment another point is clarified. Not only are they judged and destroyed, but that occurs within one day.

That is, that the judgment occurs on The Day of the Lord, a single DAY for all lost people. Umm, that's why it's called The Day.

Not just all lost humans but two. "All"! Most Christians (ECT or not) already think The Great White Throne Judgment (GWTJ) occurs on a single day. Umm, that's what John, Jesus and Peter says happens. However, I don't think many have thought about what that means WRT whether John's vision of The Beast and The False Prophet being sent to the LoF forever prior to this day and thus, they are not humans. I know I didn't till I thought it through some.

I take the GWTJ to occur literally in one day for all the wicked. Not some (two) on one day and all the rest on another day. Because I think that's the clear intention of these texts on this matter.

Plus, the way Peter and Jude say that the destruction of Sodom occurred and is said to be an example of this final judgment day and that occurred in less than a night's time.

If this premise is true and The Beast and The False Prophet are sent to the LoF years prior to the GWTJ forever (as Rev 20 says), then The Beast and The False Prophet cannot be part of the lost humans since they miss out on the judgment day of all the rest of lost humanity (GWTJ). Not to mention that no text says they are humans.

Unless someone ditches coherrence and error free precision between theses texts; either the GWTJ occurs on one day or The Beast and The False Prophet are not humans.

I personally take a higher view of Scripture than to just allow for errors within it about this point.

But all unbelievers still go to sheol (hell), awaiting the Great White Throne judgment, where all unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire, also called the SECOND death.

See what I mean? The view that The Beast and The False Prophet are lost humans forces people into contradictory statements.

They are cast directly into the lake of fire. That's their judgment. I see absolutely no problem with God casting living human beings (just 2 of em) into the lake of fire. Why bother putting them in front of the GWT judgment? It's quite obvious of what they've done.

 

[FreeGrace]

Rev 20:11-15

11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake offire. NASB

Question for Tim W:
1. How can the "dead" of v.12 and v.13 "stand before the throne" if they don't exist, as you believe?
2. Do you see from this passage that there are 2 deaths? The "dead" of v.12 and 13 are those who have died physically, yet remain in "Hades", awaiting the GWT judgment.

If the "dead" don't exist, how can they be IN Hades, and "stand before the throne". And how can the dead experience a second death?

Your view cannot answer these very easy questions.

If death only means ceasing to exist, this passage contradicts that.

In fact, your view is refuted by this passage.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"But all unbelievers still go to sheol (hell), awaiting the Great White Throne judgment, where all unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire, also called the SECOND death."

See what I mean? The view that The Beast and The False Prophet are lost humans forces people into contradictory statements.

No, I don't see what you mean. What is contradictory about the antichrist and false prophet being human?

Then you said this:

"That is, that the judgment occurs on The Day of the Lord, a single DAY for all lost people. Umm, that's why it's called The Day.

Not just all lost humans but two."

What does your last sentence mean? It doesn't fit your first statement.

 

[chessman]

I said this:
"But all unbelievers still go to sheol (hell), awaiting the Great White Throne judgment, where all unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire, also called the SECOND death."

No, I don't see what you mean. What is contradictory about the antichrist and false prophet being human?

Then you said this:

"That is, that the judgment occurs on The Day of the Lord, a single DAY for all lost people. Umm, that's why it's called The Day.

Not just all lost humans but two."

What does your last sentence mean? It doesn't fit your first statement.

My last sentence means what it says. And yes it does fit with my first sentence.

I can't figure out if I'm not being clear enough for you to understand my point (possible) or you're just refusing to admit you have presented a conflict on your view of The Beast and The False Prophet being humans.

So let me just ask you these two very straight forward yes or no questions:

1. Do you think all lost humans must appear before Jesus at the GWTJ?

2. Do you think John says in Rev 20 that The Beast and The False Prophet appear before Jesus at the GWTJ?

My answers are 1. Yes, 2. No

 

[Free]

TimothyW, Butch5, and any other anti-ECTers,

Just a simple question, which, for everyone, is not intended for debate here. This is just to get clarification because there are other issues that tie in with any idea of the final destination of the unrighteous.

What currently happens to unbelievers (may apply to believers as well, depending on your view) right now when they die--bodiless/soul type of existence somewhere; soul sleep; cessation of existence?

Again, this is not for debate in this thread as it is off-topic and shouldn't require a long explanation.

 

[chessman]

What currently happens to unbelievers ... right now when they die--bodiless/soul type of existence somewhere; soul sleep; cessation of existence?

Chessman says; "bodiless/soul type of existence somewhere"

I don't think murder, accidental death, old age or disease (killing the body) can destroy our souls. Only God can destroy a soul. And He will do just that (2 Thess 1:9) to all the unbelievers' new bodies and their souls (Matt 10:28) after they face their maker face-to-face (all of them) and are judged (all of them, Rev 20:11-12) for their unbelief in Him.

And I'll add that He has every right and justification for doing just that (Rom 1:18-19).

 

[Free]

Chessman says; "bodiless/soul type of existence somewhere"

Okay. That's what I was looking for. I'll wait for some of the others to reply before I respond, however, there is one other question I need answering as well:

Is cessation of existence immediate when one is thrown into the lake of fire or is the destruction of persons something that happens over a period of time?

]I don't think murder, accidental death, old age or disease (killing the body) can destroy our souls. Only God can destroy a soul. And He will do just that (2 Thess 1:9) to all the unbelievers' new bodies and their souls (Matt 10:28) after they face their maker face-to-face (all of them) and are judged (all of them, Rev 20:11-12) for their unbelief in Him.

And I'll add that He has every right and justification for doing just that (Rom 1:18-19).

My main contention here is with Matt 10:28 which only states that God is "able to" destroy a soul in hell, not that he "will".

 

[chessman]

I'll just make three comments (my view) on your main contention then give my answer to your other question.

1. You are right that Matt 10:28 doesn't say God will do it (destroy the body and soul in Hell). I would not claim it does. I pointed to 2 Thess 1:9 to justify that claim. That He does eventually do it, that is. I think the two passages and all others harmonize nicely.

2. What Matt 10:28 does say, however, is to fear God precisely because of His ability to do it. I don't see Jesus telling us to fear something God will not do to all the lost. It would seem like an idle threat, so-to-speak. The reason I think it says "able to" versus will do, is that He was precisely talking directly to the disciples and not the lost at that point. Jesus knew full well He wasn't going to destroy their particular souls in Hell. But my point is, He told them to fear it, none the less. 2Thess 1:9 says he will, IMO.

3. Are you aware of any ability that God posses within His nature that He does not manifest in some way at some point in time? I'm not. For example. God's nature is to create. He created. God's nature is to love. He loves. God's nature is to glorify Christ. He glorified Christ. God's nature is to destroy evil. He destroys evil. Etc. Etc. It's within God's nature to destroy the body and soul of evil God deniers in Hell (obviously via 10:28). God destroys the body and souls of evil God deniers in Hell (via who God is, His nature).

Is cessation of existence immediate when one is thrown into the lake of fire or is the destruction of persons something that happens over a period of time?

2 Peter 2:6 and condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction, reducing them to ashes, having appointed them as an example for those who are going to be ungodly,

Jude 1:7 as Sodom and Gomorrah and the towns around them indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire in the same way as these, are exhibited as an example by undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. ​

If one takes this example seriously and literally, it seems to me that their destruction will take about the same amount of time that it took to destroy S/G.

Evidently, Satan and His angels are somehow able to survive the LoF forever. Likely because it was prepared by God for that very purpose.

 

[tim-from-pa]

I said this:
"A question: did Jesus' physical death pay for our sins? yes or no."

Let's not. Will you answer or not?


Providing irrelevant questions to my question isn't helpful. I think you're dodging. I'm trying to make a point, but it seems you don't want to go there.

I did answer. The answer is yes. Which only goes to prove there's understanding based on what passes a filter here. My point (if my reply is read carefully and between the lines) in turning this around is that if his death did not pay the price, then "something else" must, i.e. Jesus must therefore be dead as a disembodied "spirit" or separated from God the Father thus ECT. But we know that's foolish. So, if he's not in ECT, the only thing left was a physical death (but as with any man, death involves everything, conscious of nothing, not physical only but all of the man, there's no disembodied spirits of people floating around anywhere). Therefore, God the Father has raised him from the dead. He could have just left him dead forever.

Now, that said, please don't confuse my so-called irrelevant questions with dodging the issue. They were to make a point. Sorry you completely missed it.

 

[tim-from-pa]

TimothyW, Butch5, and any other anti-ECTers,

Just a simple question, which, for everyone, is not intended for debate here. This is just to get clarification because there are other issues that tie in with any idea of the final destination of the unrighteous.

What currently happens to unbelievers (may apply to believers as well, depending on your view) right now when they die--bodiless/soul type of existence somewhere; soul sleep; cessation of existence?

Again, this is not for debate in this thread as it is off-topic and shouldn't require a long explanation.

What I believe you would call "soul sleep". I just call it sleep as the bible says, but when one is dead, time means nothing, so the next available moment is at their resurrection be a days or millennia--- everyone will be resurrected. The righteous (the church) will be raised at Christ's coming in spiritual bodies. The rest, as Revelation teaches, after the millennium as the general resurrection. All those who never heard the gospel or pre-lived those days are offered salvation. This is not a second chance, but the first one they had. This is the Great White Throne Judgement. Unlike the church, these are not raised spirit bodies but physical. Another resurrection of the wicked also occurs. Anyway, those who ultimately reject God's salvation are throne in the lake of fire and burned up, at the same time the rest of the earth is burned up for the renovation of the new heaven and earth. This is how they are burned up, being people. Just like you can burn up in a car fire.

 

[TimothyW]

TimothyW, Butch5, and any other anti-ECTers,

Just a simple question, which, for everyone, is not intended for debate here. This is just to get clarification because there are other issues that tie in with any idea of the final destination of the unrighteous.

What currently happens to unbelievers (may apply to believers as well, depending on your view) right now when they die--bodiless/soul type of existence somewhere; soul sleep; cessation of existence?

Again, this is not for debate in this thread as it is off-topic and shouldn't require a long explanation.

I believe what the Bible says about this, and the Nicene Creed. That is: We require resurrection to life in order to become alive again after death. Unless a person is resurrected, they are not alive. They remain dead until the resurrection. Jesus Christ is the resurrection and the life. Jesus Christ is the one who can and will resurrect the dead. He proved this by resurrecting the dead in His first coming. He will return to resurrect the dead.

I will also answer your second question, You asked if the wicked will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire in an instant, or will it be a long process. I believe that the wicked will be destroyed on the day of judgment. That very day. I believe that this is the best reading of the scriptures on this. The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is held out in scripture as an example of the destruction on the day of judgment. Peter calls it "the DAY of judgment and destruction of the ungodly." 2 Peter 3:6
Read all of 2 Peter 3.

This day of Judgment and Destruction is a common theme throughout the Bible.

 

[TimothyW]

TimothyW, Butch5, and any other anti-ECTers,

Free, I think that rather than attempt to defend the faith against "anti-ECTers", it would be better to work to understand what the scriptures actually say, and what they don't say. People get so caught up in defending their own doctrine that they seem to leave the scriptures behind.
This is not an US versus YOU issue. This is people getting together reading the scriptures in order to understand them. There should be unity, not division. None of us decided we wanted to be "anti-ECTers" and starting looking for reasons to be antiECT. We read the Bible and came to the conclusion that the wicked really will be destroyed on the day of judgment, just as the scriptures say.

 

[TimothyW]

FreeGrace, your responses to me indicate that you do not believe that being truly dead is any sort of punishment.
You have not proven that NOT having eternal life is just as good as HAVING eternal life, so I have to reject your argument. When you figure out that life is better than death, then you will understand what I am saying. Until you figure that out, nothing I will say will help you understand. I honestly believe that you do not want to understand.

 

[Butch5]

Where is "gehenna" equated with the lake of fire?


And what does gehenna have to do with the lake of fire?

And you are ignoring Matt 25:46.

The equation comes from comparing the words of Jesus and John. Jesus said that wicked would be cast into Gehenna, John said the wicked would be cast into the Lake of Fire. It seems that either they are the same place or we have a contradiction. If we believe the Scriptures are inerrant it seems we can only draw one conclusion.

Jesus,
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: (Mar 9:47 KJV)

John
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Rev 20:14-15 KJV)

Regarding Mathew 25, We've been over this. I've pointed out that "aionios" doesn't mean eternal. Translators have let their theology influence their translation. Even if we set the Lake of Fire aside, Jesus said the wicked will be cast into Gehenna, Jeremiah prophesied that a day would come when Gehenna would once again made holy to the Lord. This should be proof positive (in addition to all of the other passages) that aionios doesn't mean eternal. The Scriptures refute the idea that aionios means eternal, that idea comes from men.

38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. (Jer 31:38-40 KJV)

 

[FreeGrace]

My last sentence means what it says. And yes it does fit with my first sentence.

I can't figure out if I'm not being clear enough for you to understand my point (possible) or you're just refusing to admit you have presented a conflict on your view of The Beast and The False Prophet being humans.

So let me just ask you these two very straight forward yes or no questions:

1. Do you think all lost humans must appear before Jesus at the GWTJ?

All except the antichrist and false prophet, since God throws them alive into the lake of fire when Jesus returns at the Second Advent.

2. Do you think John says in Rev 20 that The Beast and The False Prophet appear before Jesus at the GWTJ?

No, he doesn't.

 

[gr8grace3]

Thanks Poet,
Your post got me thinking of that passage in 2nd Peter, and then I read all of Chapter 3 of Second Peter.

It seems that every day I get more confirmation from the Bible that the doctrine of eternal conscious torment is wrong (possibly even deliberately deceitful).
Here is what I read in 2nd Peter about the second coming of the Lord, and the fate of the wicked (whether it is to be destruction or eternal torture):

"Knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming?"​

Peter is writing about the second coming of Christ

"For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly."​

Peter tells of the fate of the ungodly, they will be judged and destroyed. This is the opposite of what some say, that the ungodly will NOT be destroyed, they will instead be sent to hell where they will be kept alive forever and set on fire, conscious of torment forever.

"The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."​

It is not the Lord's will that any will perish, but some will perish. Perish is the opposite of living forever in hell being tortured alive.

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness,waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.​

The old earth and heavens will pass away, and the only ones who will be left are those who dwell in the new earth. Those who have put their faith in Christ for eternal life.

In this debate, there are 2 words that one should pay close attention to in 2 Pet 3.

2 Pet 3:6~~New American Standard Bible
through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water......622 apollumi/destroyed. But it still exists.

But look at the word used when Peter talks of the end and the coming of The Lord.

2 Pet 3:10~~New American Standard Bible
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up......3089 luthēsetai/destroyed. To unbind,to dissolve. The old earth and old heavens will cease to exist.

2 Pet 3:12~~New American Standard Bible
looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!........3089 luthēsetai/destroyed. To unbind,to dissolve. The old earth and old heavens will cease to exist.

2 Pet 3:7~~New American Standard Bible
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. 684 apōleias/destruction(From 622 apollumi)

The word luthēsetai clearly gives us an example of something that will cease to exist. Why doesn't Peter use this word for the ungodly men in 2 Pet 3:7 that will be destroyed?

 

[FreeGrace]

I did answer. The answer is yes. Which only goes to prove there's understanding based on what passes a filter here. My point (if my reply is read carefully and between the lines) in turning this around is that if his death did not pay the price, then "something else" must, i.e. Jesus must therefore be dead as a disembodied "spirit" or separated from God the Father thus ECT.

Yes, it was "something else". It was spiritual death, not physical death. His spiritual death was separation from His Father.

But we know that's foolish.

Foolish?? We know the Greek for "said in a loud voice" means "screamed". He never opened His mouth during all the torture He endured, but when the Father "forsook" Him, He screamed in agony. So please don't tell me that wasn't torment. Remember that the Trinity had been in perfect harmony forever. Now, God the Father is judging God the Son for our sins. He suffered by taking on our sins, and by being forsaken by His Father. Extreme suffering.

So, if he's not in ECT, the only thing left was a physical death (but as with any man, death involves everything, conscious of nothing, not physical only but all of the man, there's no disembodied spirits of people floating around anywhere). Therefore, God the Father has raised him from the dead. He could have just left him dead forever.

He was in ECT. Just not literally the way we view eternal. God is outside of time. I won't argue what I consider to be a minor detail. The 3 hours on the cross suffering for the sins of the whole world were an eternity for Him.

 

[FreeGrace]

What I believe you would call "soul sleep". I just call it sleep as the bible says, but when one is dead

Correction: the Bible uses "sleep" as a euphemism for physical death; not 'soul sleep'. This is very clear from several passages:

1 Cor 11:30 and John 11:11-14.

 

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace, your responses to me indicate that you do not believe that being truly dead is any sort of punishment.

Why should I? All humans, with very few exceptions, experience physical death.

Heb 9:27 - And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment. NASB

Dying physically is not punishment. It is the result of Adam's sin. All of God's children die, along with all unbelievers.

Recall Psa 116:15 - Precious in the sight of the LORD Is the death of His godly ones. NASB

That surely doesn't sound like punishment to me.

You have not proven that NOT having eternal life is just as good as HAVING eternal life, so I have to reject your argument.

Well, I reject your faulty understanding of my argument, because I don't believe that "not having EL is just as good as having EL". [ToS violation]

Those who have EL will live with God for eternity. That's very GOOD.

Those who don't have EL will be tormented night and day forever and ever, separated from God. That's very BAD.

When you figure out that life is better than death, then you will understand what I am saying.[/QJOTUE]
[rude comment] Of course life is ALWAYS better than death.

Until you figure that out, nothing I will say will help you understand. I honestly believe that you do not want to understand.

[Condescending and rude comments.]