Should Christians rethink Hell?

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace, I'm confident that you can figure this out by reading the Bible prayerfully and thoughtfully.
(Just one comment, "merely tortured" means tortured but not destroyed. If a person who would otherwise be destroyed doesn't need salvation, then a person who will not be destroyed but will instead be tortured also wouldn't need salvation. Obviously is it worse to be destroyed than it is to be tortured.)

Sorry, but none of this makes sense. Why would it be worse to cease to exist (no consciousness) than to be tortured, which demands consciousness?

 

[TimothyW]

Sorry, but none of this makes sense. Why would it be worse to cease to exist (no consciousness) than to be tortured, which demands consciousness?

I'm sorry that it doesn't make sense to you. In time, it will.

 

[Nintentacle]

Eternal Torment is the right one. Look at Matthew 25:46 & Daniel 12:2.

"Perish" is speaking of a spiritual death.

Annihilationist, to me, are like reverse Nicodemus'. Instead of getting confused about being born-again, they get confused about dying-again.

 

[FreeGrace]

I'm sorry that it doesn't make sense to you. In time, it will.

I see that you elected to not explain yourself. I guess what you had posted isn't explainable. But then again, how could one explain how being tortured is better than ceasing to exist??? There isn't any explanation for that.

Being tortured is a conscious event. One in a coma or under anesthesia cannot be tortured. They have to be conscious in order to be tortured. Yet you believe that torture is better than ceasing to exist, where there is no consciousness. That truly amazes me.

 

[FreeGrace]

Eternal Torment is the right one. Look at Matthew 25:46 & Daniel 12:2.

"Perish" is speaking of a spiritual death.

Annihilationist, to me, are like reverse Nicodemus'. Instead of getting confused about being born-again, they get confused about dying-again.

(Edited, A&T Guidelines: Subsequent opposing responses should include references to supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation for the contrary understanding.)

 

[TimothyW]

Eternal Torment is the right one. Look at Matthew 25:46 & Daniel 12:2.

"Perish" is speaking of a spiritual death.

Annihilationist, to me, are like reverse Nicodemus'. Instead of getting confused about being born-again, they get confused about dying-again.

This is rather rude. Did you intend to be rude? I am not confused about the second death, I believe it is death, the second time. I think that Eternal Tormentists get confused about the second death, thinking that the second death means living forever in hell being tormented. Being conscious forever is not death.

Can you explain why you think that those who believe that the second death is the second death are confused about the lost dying again on Judgment Day?

 

[FreeGrace]

This is rather rude. Did you intend to be rude? I am not confused about the second death, I believe it is death, the second time. I think that Eternal Tormentists get confused about the second death, thinking that the second death means living forever in hell being tormented.

There is no confusion on our side. We understand what Matt 25:46 means: eternal punishment. That requires consciousness in order for punishment to be punishment. As well, Rev 20:10 describes existence in the lake of fire, which is also called the second death: torment night and day forever and ever.

Being conscious forever is not death.

Seems the confusion is on your side. Death is used in a variety of ways in Scripture. It an refer to physical death, where the soul and body are separated (James 2:26). It can refer to eternal separation from God, per the second death. It can refer to sexual impotence of Abraham per Heb 11:12. It can also refer to widows being out of fellowship with Christ per 1 Tim 5:6.

Unbelievers will most assurredly be conscious during their eternal punishment (Matt 25:46) which is being "tormented night and day forever and ever" per Rev 20:10 in the second death.

 

[TimothyW]

FreeGrace you keep on posting the same things over and over.
Haven't I addressed Matthew 25:46 many times in this thread? Haven't I said over and over that the punishment is death, and it is eternal? Haven't I told you many times that Rev 20:10 is talking about the devil, the beast and the false prophet? Haven't we discussed James 2:26 and how it doesn't say that dead people are actually alive and how it doesn't say that the spirits of dead people can live without bodies?

I am not confused, and you are very rude to post that. I believe what the Bible says, "For the wages of sin is death", "unless you repent you will likewise perish", "whoever believes in him will not perish but will have eternal life", "the soul who sins shall die", "fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna", "the wicked shall perish", "the wicked shall be no more", "sinners will be altogether destroyed", "he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire". This is unmistakable, the wicked will be destroyed and will be no more just as the Bible clearly states.
Here are the scripture references PROVING what I am saying:
Romans 6:23
Luke 13:3
John 3:16
Ezekiel 18:4
Matthew 10:28
Psalm 37:10
Psalm 37:20
Psalm 37:38
Matthew 3:12

You don't have to believe what the Bible says, but I have told you what the Bible specifically says. If you reject that, that is not my problem.
Mods, please do not delete this post because I am only saying what the Bible says, and I have posted the specific verses from the Bible that prove that what I am saying is correct. This should be enough for anyone, even the hardest skeptic.

 

[turnorburn]

Free Grace isn't posting the same things over and over again anymore than you are Tim eternal punishment is eternal period, unless you have a doctrine that says otherwise?

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

tob

 

[TimothyW]

Free Grace isn't posting the same things over and over again anymore than you are Tim eternal punishment is eternal period, unless you have a doctrine that says otherewise?

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

tob

How is that not the same thing over and over?
What have I said? Do you know?
I believe the punishment is eternal. Got it? I believe the punishment is eternal.
I simply agree with the Bible which specifically says that the punishment for sin is death. Romans 6:23
Therefore the punishment is death, and it is eternal.
Do you now understand?
Shall I repeat myself 500 times so that you finally understand? Will that help?

 

[TimothyW]

Free Grace isn't posting the same things over and over again anymore than you are Tim eternal punishment is eternal period, unless you have a doctrine that says otherwise?

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

tob

I've seen and responded to Matthew 25:46 many times. It simply does not say that the eternal punishment is eternal conscious torment.
I believe that the punishment is death (Romans 6:23 and others) and it is eternal.

This view is refuted by both Rev 20:10, where those who will be cast into the lake of fire will be "tormented night and day forever and ever", plus Matt 25:46 which speaks of everlasting (forever) punishment.

It's real difficult to be punished forever is one doesn't exist. Don't you think?

Matt 25:46 says - “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” NASB

Where is "gehenna" equated with the lake of fire?


And what does gehenna have to do with the lake of fire?

And you are ignoring Matt 25:46.

Matt 25:46 says that the unsaved will go to everlasting punishment.

Matt 25:46 - “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” NASB

the reality of what Matt 25:46 says.

Matt 25:46.

Matt 25:46.

Combine Matt 25

Since Matt 25:46 is clearly about eternal punishment,

Matt 25:46 is clear to me.

eternal punishment, per Matt 25:46.

Matt 25:46 says the same thing.

Matt 25:46 says there will be eternal punishment.

and Matt 25:46.

Because of such verses as Matt 25:46

v.46 "“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” NASB

But…when considers Matt 25:46 which speaks of eternal punishment,

Yet, Matt 25:46 says there will be eternal punishment.

Both Matt 25:46

ternal Torment is the right one. Look at Matthew 25:46

We understand what Matt 25:46 means: eternal punishment.

Unbelievers will most assurredly be conscious during their eternal punishment (Matt 25:46)

 

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace you keep on posting the same things over and over.

I am repeating the truth of Scripture. Unbelievers will suffer eternal punishment.

Haven't I addressed Matthew 25:46 many times in this thread? Haven't I said over and over that the punishment is death, and it is eternal?

What you keep missing or ignoring is that the concept of punishment requires consciousness. Someone in a coma or under anesthesia cannot be punished.

Haven't I told you many times that Rev 20:10 is talking about the devil, the beast and the false prophet?

What you keep missing or ignoring is that the verse describes the conditions IN the lake of fire. And all unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire, per Rev 20:15. There is no rational reason to assume that there will be any difference between the people of 20:15 and the 3 in 20:10. The conditions described apply to both. You've not shown otherwise.

Haven't we discussed James 2:26 and how it doesn't say that dead people are actually alive and how it doesn't say that the spirits of dead people can live without bodies?

I have no idea what your point is here. The point of James 2:26 is that when the soul separates from the body, the body is called dead. That is a physical death. Spiritual death is separation from God in the lake of fire.

I am not confused, and you are very rude to post that. I believe what the Bible says, "For the wages of sin is death", "unless you repent you will likewise perish", "whoever believes in him will not perish but will have eternal life", "the soul who sins shall die", "fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna", "the wicked shall perish", "the wicked shall be no more", "sinners will be altogether destroyed", "he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire". This is unmistakable, the wicked will be destroyed and will be no more just as the Bible clearly states.

I think you misunderstand what those verses mean.

You don't have to believe what the Bible says, but I have told you what the Bible specifically says. If you reject that, that is not my problem.

How ironic. The Bible tells us that unbelievers will experience eternal punishment, yet you believe they will cease to exist, which removes ALL concept of eternal.

If one doesn't exist any more, there is no "eternal" to experience. Yet the punishment, which DEMANDS consciousness, will be eternal. And this is backed up by Rev 20:10.

 

[FreeGrace]

Free Grace isn't posting the same things over and over again anymore than you are Tim eternal punishment is eternal period, unless you have a doctrine that says otherwise?

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

tob

Exactly! Punishment cannot be everlasting/eternal if one simply ceases to exist.

 

[Obadiah]

There have been literally thousands of posts made on this thread and several others about exactly the same subject disguised under various titles. They always end up in the same endless argument with no conclusions.

This thread is closed. Please do not start another similar thread.

Obadiah.