G
GojuBrian
Guest
I would have a hard time cremating someone. I firmly believe we should be buried.
Any scripture or thoughts on this?
Any scripture or thoughts on this?
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
Lewis
Member
Brian read my topic here.
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=43587&p=528626&hilit=cremation#p528626
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=43587&p=528626&hilit=cremation#p528626
Drew
Member
Well we agree on this one.GojuBrian said:
Perhaps there may be practical considerations that would justify cremation, but in general I think it "tells the wrong story".
If we take the Bible story seriously, we will believe that God will one day give the redeemed (physical) resurrection bodies - despite what some may think, you won't be in heaven forever, your final state is an embodied one.
When we allow ourselves to be cremated we (subtly) send the message that "God is done with physicality, so we might as well help the process along". Yes, we all die. And yes, our bodies return to dust. But precisely because God will restore our physicality, we should not burn that physicality away to dust - it implicitly devalues our physicality and plays into the (non-scriptural) view that we have live forever in a disembodied state.
Lewis
Member
From a old post I did a few months ago.
What does the Bible say about cremation? Should Christians be cremated?
Question: "What does the Bible say about cremation? Should Christians be cremated?"
Answer: The Bible does not give any specific teaching about cremation. There are occurrences in the Old Testament of people being burned to death (1 Kings 16:18; 2 Kings 21:6) and of human bones being burned (2 Kings 23:16-20), but these are not examples of cremation. It is interesting to note that in 2 Kings 23:16-20, burning human bones on an altar desecrated the altar. At the same time, the Old Testament law nowhere commands that a deceased human body not be burned, nor does it attach any curse or judgment on someone who is cremated.
Cremation was practiced in biblical times, but it was not commonly practiced by the Israelites or by New Testament believers. In the cultures of Bible times, burial in a tomb, cave, or in the ground was the common way to dispose of a human body (Genesis 23:19; 35:4; 2 Chronicles 16:14; Matthew 27:60-66). While burial was the common practice, the Bible nowhere commands burial as the only allowed method of disposing of a body.
Is cremation something a Christian can consider? Again, there is no explicit scriptural command against cremation. Some believers object to the practice of cremation on the basis it does not recognize that one day God will resurrect our bodies and re-unite them with our soul/spirit (1 Corinthians 15:35-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:16). However, the fact that a body has been cremated does not make it any more difficult for God to resurrect that body. The bodies of Christians who died a thousand years ago have, by now, completely turned into dust. This will in no way prevent God from being able to resurrect their bodies. He created them in the first place; He will have no difficulty re-creating them. Cremation does nothing but “expedite†the process of turning a body into dust. God is equally able to raise a person’s remains that have been cremated as He is the remains of a person who was not cremated. The question of burial or cremation is within the realm of Christian freedom. A person or a family considering this issue should pray for wisdom (James 1:5) and follow the conviction that results.
http://www.gotquestions.org/cremation-Bible.html
What does the Bible say about cremation? Should Christians be cremated?
Question: "What does the Bible say about cremation? Should Christians be cremated?"
Answer: The Bible does not give any specific teaching about cremation. There are occurrences in the Old Testament of people being burned to death (1 Kings 16:18; 2 Kings 21:6) and of human bones being burned (2 Kings 23:16-20), but these are not examples of cremation. It is interesting to note that in 2 Kings 23:16-20, burning human bones on an altar desecrated the altar. At the same time, the Old Testament law nowhere commands that a deceased human body not be burned, nor does it attach any curse or judgment on someone who is cremated.
Cremation was practiced in biblical times, but it was not commonly practiced by the Israelites or by New Testament believers. In the cultures of Bible times, burial in a tomb, cave, or in the ground was the common way to dispose of a human body (Genesis 23:19; 35:4; 2 Chronicles 16:14; Matthew 27:60-66). While burial was the common practice, the Bible nowhere commands burial as the only allowed method of disposing of a body.
Is cremation something a Christian can consider? Again, there is no explicit scriptural command against cremation. Some believers object to the practice of cremation on the basis it does not recognize that one day God will resurrect our bodies and re-unite them with our soul/spirit (1 Corinthians 15:35-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:16). However, the fact that a body has been cremated does not make it any more difficult for God to resurrect that body. The bodies of Christians who died a thousand years ago have, by now, completely turned into dust. This will in no way prevent God from being able to resurrect their bodies. He created them in the first place; He will have no difficulty re-creating them. Cremation does nothing but “expedite†the process of turning a body into dust. God is equally able to raise a person’s remains that have been cremated as He is the remains of a person who was not cremated. The question of burial or cremation is within the realm of Christian freedom. A person or a family considering this issue should pray for wisdom (James 1:5) and follow the conviction that results.
http://www.gotquestions.org/cremation-Bible.html
Drew
Member
I am not sure what you mean by "the same body". Every 7 years or so, all the cells in your body get replaced - you remain "you" even if you are made of "new cells".jasoncran said:
If God can "replace cells" in the same living person without changing who that person is, I have no doubt He can resurrect you and me as "recognizably you and me" even if the specific cells that comprised us at the moment of death have long decayed.
Lewis
Member
When someone's heart stops pumping blood around their body, the tissues and cells are deprived of oxygen and rapidly begin to die.
But different cells die at different rates. So, for example, brain cells die within three to seven minutes, while skin cells can be taken from a dead body for up to 24 hours after death and still grow normally in a laboratory culture.
But contrary to folklore, this doesn't mean that hair and nails continue to grow after death, although shrinkage of the skin can make it seem this way.
From this point on, nature is very efficient at breaking down human corpses. Decomposition is well under way by the time burial or cremation occurs. However, the exact rate of decomposition depends to some extent on environmental conditions.
Decomposition in the air is twice as fast as when the body is under water and four times as fast as underground. Corpses are preserved longer when buried deeper, as long as the ground isn't waterlogged.
The intestines are packed with millions of micro-organisms that don't die with the person. These organisms start to break down the dead cells of the intestines, while some, especially bacteria called clostridia and coliforms, start to invade other parts of the body.
At the same time the body undergoes its own intrinsic breakdown under the action of enzymes and other chemicals which have been released by the dead cells. The pancreas, for example, is usually packed with digestive enzymes, and so rapidly digests itself
The decomposing tissues release green substances and gas, which make the skin green/blue and blistered, starting on the abdomen. The front of the body swells, the tongue may protrude, and fluid from the lungs oozes out of the mouth and nostrils.
This unpleasant sight is added to by a terrible smell as gases such as hydrogen sulphide (rotten egg smell), methane and traces of mercaptans are released. This stage is reached in temperate countries after about four to six days, much faster in the tropics and slower in cold or dry conditions.
oh and alsoA corpse left above ground is then rapidly broken down by insects and animals, including bluebottles and carrion fly maggots, followed by beetles, ants and wasps.
In the tropics, a corpse can become a moving mass of maggots within 24 hours.
If there are no animals to destroy the body, hair, nails and teeth become detached within a few weeks, and after a month or so the tissues become liquefied and the main body cavities burst open.
Burial in a coffin slows the process
The whole process is generally slower in a coffin, and the body may remain identifiable for many months. Some tissues, such as tendons and ligaments, are more resistant to decomposition, while the uterus and prostate glands may last several months.
But within a year all that is usually left is the skeleton and teeth, with traces of the tissues on them - it takes 40 to 50 years for the bones to become dry and brittle in a coffin. In soil of neutral acidity, bones may last for hundreds of years, while acid peaty soil gradually dissolves the bones.
But different cells die at different rates. So, for example, brain cells die within three to seven minutes, while skin cells can be taken from a dead body for up to 24 hours after death and still grow normally in a laboratory culture.
But contrary to folklore, this doesn't mean that hair and nails continue to grow after death, although shrinkage of the skin can make it seem this way.
From this point on, nature is very efficient at breaking down human corpses. Decomposition is well under way by the time burial or cremation occurs. However, the exact rate of decomposition depends to some extent on environmental conditions.
Decomposition in the air is twice as fast as when the body is under water and four times as fast as underground. Corpses are preserved longer when buried deeper, as long as the ground isn't waterlogged.
The intestines are packed with millions of micro-organisms that don't die with the person. These organisms start to break down the dead cells of the intestines, while some, especially bacteria called clostridia and coliforms, start to invade other parts of the body.
At the same time the body undergoes its own intrinsic breakdown under the action of enzymes and other chemicals which have been released by the dead cells. The pancreas, for example, is usually packed with digestive enzymes, and so rapidly digests itself
The decomposing tissues release green substances and gas, which make the skin green/blue and blistered, starting on the abdomen. The front of the body swells, the tongue may protrude, and fluid from the lungs oozes out of the mouth and nostrils.
This unpleasant sight is added to by a terrible smell as gases such as hydrogen sulphide (rotten egg smell), methane and traces of mercaptans are released. This stage is reached in temperate countries after about four to six days, much faster in the tropics and slower in cold or dry conditions.
oh and alsoA corpse left above ground is then rapidly broken down by insects and animals, including bluebottles and carrion fly maggots, followed by beetles, ants and wasps.
In the tropics, a corpse can become a moving mass of maggots within 24 hours.
If there are no animals to destroy the body, hair, nails and teeth become detached within a few weeks, and after a month or so the tissues become liquefied and the main body cavities burst open.
Burial in a coffin slows the process
The whole process is generally slower in a coffin, and the body may remain identifiable for many months. Some tissues, such as tendons and ligaments, are more resistant to decomposition, while the uterus and prostate glands may last several months.
But within a year all that is usually left is the skeleton and teeth, with traces of the tissues on them - it takes 40 to 50 years for the bones to become dry and brittle in a coffin. In soil of neutral acidity, bones may last for hundreds of years, while acid peaty soil gradually dissolves the bones.
G
GojuBrian
Guest
I won't be cremated, at least I don't want to be. No telling how I will go out though.
My sister swears my mom wanted to be cremated, but I never heard her say that. My grandmother could not bear the thought of, "burning her baby." So we buried her properly.
My sister swears my mom wanted to be cremated, but I never heard her say that. My grandmother could not bear the thought of, "burning her baby." So we buried her properly.
G
GojuBrian
Guest
jasoncran said:
Well then, we'll hang you by your toes and let the buzzards have you,lol. ;)
turnorburn
Member
Yes!... :yes
G
GojuBrian
Guest
" same as the worms...."
Drew
Member
I am not sure what your point is? How does this connect to the matter of cremation? I still think my argument is valid - when we choose to be cremated we send an implicit "anti-physicality" message to the world. We are going to get physical bodies (redeemed ones, I agree, but physical nonetheless).jasoncran said:
The matter of how God chooses to give you and me resurrection bodies seems entirely beside the point to me.
jasoncran
Member
how? it all winds up that way, drew, the apostles are dust! shoot in italy you get buried they move you in 100 yrs, In japan (tokyo) you are buried on the roof tops of sky scapers, not much land there for burial.
its all a matter of practicality.
In Florida ,land once its used for a cemetery cant be built upon, hmm i wouldnt want a well were some dead guy may be.
its all a matter of practicality.
In Florida ,land once its used for a cemetery cant be built upon, hmm i wouldnt want a well were some dead guy may be.
Caroline H
Member
I think it's a personal issue that should not ever become a legalistic one, saying that no one should be cremated because of a message it sends or that no one should be buried. The bible gives no commands on this issue, and I'm pretty sure it's more of a cultural issue than a spiritual one. Besides, King Saul and his sons were cremated when they were taken down from the wall weren't they?
Lewis
Member
This article is very interesting.
Is Cremation Appropriate for Christians?
Rev. Richard D. Phillips • Question Box
Tenth Presbyterian Church, Philadelphia • July 9, 2000
Tonight’s question is about the propriety of cremation for the bodies of Christians after death. The question reads as follows: “I recognize we should respect and care for the body God has given us. Does this rule out cremation for Christians? Is there any biblical teaching or guideline?â€
Sometimes Christians worry that if their body is cremated they will be ineligible for the resurrection, mainly on physical grounds. If the body is consumed by fire, how can it be resurrected? The counter-argument is that bodies that are buried also disintegrate. When it comes to the resurrection I freely admit that a vast miracle is needed, and I trust God, who made everything out of nothing, to sort out the molecules. Therefore, I want to begin by stating that there is no reason to worry about the possibility of resurrection after cremation.
We always want to ask what the Bible has to say, and the Bible has an awful lot to say about death. First, I must confess that I find no command in Scripture against cremation. Nonetheless I think a summary of the biblical data will show if not a commandment against cremation, at least a clear hostility to this mode of dealing with human remains.
From the earliest times in the Bible, burial constituted the proper means of dealing with dead bodies. When Abraham’s wife Sarah died – and this is the first formal burial I find in Scripture – burial tombs were used (Gen. 23:4-6). Abraham’s family were all buried in the cave of Machpelah near Mamre (25:9). Many years later, when the first high priest, Aaron, died, we are told that he was buried (Dt. 10:9). The death of Moses is perhaps particularly instructive:
And Moses the servant of the LORD died there in Moab, as the LORD had said. He buried him in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is. Dt. 34:5-6
It was God who dealt with Moses’ bodily remains and he buried him in the ground. In Dt. 21, a stipulation is made that even a capital criminal who is put to death is accorded the right to be buried (v. 22). Of course, the great example in the Bible is the record of the burial of Jesus Christ. Mt. 27:57-59 tells of Joseph of Arimathea gaining permission from Pilate to bury our Lord’s body in a new tomb cut out of the rock.
From very early in the Bible we also find the use of perfumes and spices to prepare the body for the grave. 2 Chronicles 16:14 observes that this happened for the body of King Asa. The intent was not really preservation, as in Egyptian mummification, but purification of the body. John 19:39 tells of the great amount of myrrh and aloes and spices used by Joseph and Nicodemus for the preparation of Jesus’ body. The body, though dead, still warranted love and care.
What about cremation? The Bible does mention it. In Joshua 7, Joshua proclaimed that whoever was found with the dedicated items stolen from Jericho “shall be destroyed by fire, along with all that belongs to him†(7:15). When it was discerned that a man named Achan was the guilty party, the Israelites stoned and cremated his entire household, including his animal livestock (v. 25). Leviticus 20:14 calls for the burning of a man who marries a woman and her mother. The same was true for any priest’s daughter who became a prostitute (Lev. 21:9). There are other examples, but you get the picture. Burning of human remains spoke of judgment on sin, which also will be, the Bible says, by fire.
It is always the case that our views of the afterlife will influence how we handle the bodies of those who have died. That is true not just of Christians but of everybody else. Our theology will shape the way we approach all of life’s great events, be they childbirth, marriage, the coming of the annual harvest, etc.
Let’s first deal with the theologies aligned with cremation. In the ancient world there were a variety of reasons. Some peoples seem to have feared the dead and so they wanted to get rid of them. More sophisticated people, like the later Greeks and Romans, who greatly favored cremation, seem to have been guided by philosophical views that downgraded the body in comparison to the spirit. Just about all the ancient philosophies had little use for the body. In general, cremation does reflect a low view of the body after death, however one may view the fate of the liberated soul.
What about today? I took the liberty of checking out various websites advocating cremation on the internet and, to my surprise, the only incentive I saw listed was economic. Cremation is cheaper than burial. But I think there is also a new age mysticism that motivates, however vaguely, renewed interest in cremation today.
The other day I ran across a touching story regarding the spreading of a loved ones’ ashes. The man who had died was a mountain climber and his friends carried his ashes to the top of Mt. McKinley, the highest spot in North America. That is no small feat and it surely expressed real devotion. With great reverence, the friends observed a moment of sileence, after which they let his ashes go so that “his spirit could float above the mountains.†Then they turned around and left.
On one level, I am touched by the gesture, but mainly I think it speaks of the despair that attends death apart from faith in the resurrection. The best we can do is 15 minutes of afterlife fame followed by nothing but warm memories and annihilation by dispersion.
Christian burial is motivated by a far different view of life after death. The New Testament describes those who have died as being “asleep†(1 Cor. 11:30; 15:6, 18, 20, 51). This is not a description of the soul or spirit, for those are not asleep but with the Lord in heaven. It is the body that sleeps, and sleep is a temporary condition. The bodies that sleep – yes, I suppose even those that are decomposed – are awaiting their wake-up call on the resurrection morning.
Without doubt, it is the doctrine of the resurrection of the body that has motivated the Christian practice of burial and the Israelite practice before it. Everywhere Christianity has spread, cremation has given way to proper and respectful burial. Christians have a robust view of the body, both in life and in death. One of the great comforts as we face disease and sickness and death in this life is the knowledge that they will not have the last word. No, it is these bodies that are so integrally a part of ourselves that will be resurrected in glory, imperishable and immortal. And though we acknowledge the physics of the grave we are not in alliance with them, nor with death at any level. The apostle Paul writes, in 1 Thessalonians 4:
Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him… For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. (vv. 13-16).
Everything about that description tells us to honor, to preserve, yes, even to dedicate real estate to the bodies of those our beloved who having died are with Christ in the spirit, and awaiting the resurrection of their bodies in the morning of the new creation. http://www.tenth.org/qbox/qb_000709.htm
Is Cremation Appropriate for Christians?
Rev. Richard D. Phillips • Question Box
Tenth Presbyterian Church, Philadelphia • July 9, 2000
Tonight’s question is about the propriety of cremation for the bodies of Christians after death. The question reads as follows: “I recognize we should respect and care for the body God has given us. Does this rule out cremation for Christians? Is there any biblical teaching or guideline?â€
Sometimes Christians worry that if their body is cremated they will be ineligible for the resurrection, mainly on physical grounds. If the body is consumed by fire, how can it be resurrected? The counter-argument is that bodies that are buried also disintegrate. When it comes to the resurrection I freely admit that a vast miracle is needed, and I trust God, who made everything out of nothing, to sort out the molecules. Therefore, I want to begin by stating that there is no reason to worry about the possibility of resurrection after cremation.
We always want to ask what the Bible has to say, and the Bible has an awful lot to say about death. First, I must confess that I find no command in Scripture against cremation. Nonetheless I think a summary of the biblical data will show if not a commandment against cremation, at least a clear hostility to this mode of dealing with human remains.
From the earliest times in the Bible, burial constituted the proper means of dealing with dead bodies. When Abraham’s wife Sarah died – and this is the first formal burial I find in Scripture – burial tombs were used (Gen. 23:4-6). Abraham’s family were all buried in the cave of Machpelah near Mamre (25:9). Many years later, when the first high priest, Aaron, died, we are told that he was buried (Dt. 10:9). The death of Moses is perhaps particularly instructive:
And Moses the servant of the LORD died there in Moab, as the LORD had said. He buried him in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is. Dt. 34:5-6
It was God who dealt with Moses’ bodily remains and he buried him in the ground. In Dt. 21, a stipulation is made that even a capital criminal who is put to death is accorded the right to be buried (v. 22). Of course, the great example in the Bible is the record of the burial of Jesus Christ. Mt. 27:57-59 tells of Joseph of Arimathea gaining permission from Pilate to bury our Lord’s body in a new tomb cut out of the rock.
From very early in the Bible we also find the use of perfumes and spices to prepare the body for the grave. 2 Chronicles 16:14 observes that this happened for the body of King Asa. The intent was not really preservation, as in Egyptian mummification, but purification of the body. John 19:39 tells of the great amount of myrrh and aloes and spices used by Joseph and Nicodemus for the preparation of Jesus’ body. The body, though dead, still warranted love and care.
What about cremation? The Bible does mention it. In Joshua 7, Joshua proclaimed that whoever was found with the dedicated items stolen from Jericho “shall be destroyed by fire, along with all that belongs to him†(7:15). When it was discerned that a man named Achan was the guilty party, the Israelites stoned and cremated his entire household, including his animal livestock (v. 25). Leviticus 20:14 calls for the burning of a man who marries a woman and her mother. The same was true for any priest’s daughter who became a prostitute (Lev. 21:9). There are other examples, but you get the picture. Burning of human remains spoke of judgment on sin, which also will be, the Bible says, by fire.
It is always the case that our views of the afterlife will influence how we handle the bodies of those who have died. That is true not just of Christians but of everybody else. Our theology will shape the way we approach all of life’s great events, be they childbirth, marriage, the coming of the annual harvest, etc.
Let’s first deal with the theologies aligned with cremation. In the ancient world there were a variety of reasons. Some peoples seem to have feared the dead and so they wanted to get rid of them. More sophisticated people, like the later Greeks and Romans, who greatly favored cremation, seem to have been guided by philosophical views that downgraded the body in comparison to the spirit. Just about all the ancient philosophies had little use for the body. In general, cremation does reflect a low view of the body after death, however one may view the fate of the liberated soul.
What about today? I took the liberty of checking out various websites advocating cremation on the internet and, to my surprise, the only incentive I saw listed was economic. Cremation is cheaper than burial. But I think there is also a new age mysticism that motivates, however vaguely, renewed interest in cremation today.
The other day I ran across a touching story regarding the spreading of a loved ones’ ashes. The man who had died was a mountain climber and his friends carried his ashes to the top of Mt. McKinley, the highest spot in North America. That is no small feat and it surely expressed real devotion. With great reverence, the friends observed a moment of sileence, after which they let his ashes go so that “his spirit could float above the mountains.†Then they turned around and left.
On one level, I am touched by the gesture, but mainly I think it speaks of the despair that attends death apart from faith in the resurrection. The best we can do is 15 minutes of afterlife fame followed by nothing but warm memories and annihilation by dispersion.
Christian burial is motivated by a far different view of life after death. The New Testament describes those who have died as being “asleep†(1 Cor. 11:30; 15:6, 18, 20, 51). This is not a description of the soul or spirit, for those are not asleep but with the Lord in heaven. It is the body that sleeps, and sleep is a temporary condition. The bodies that sleep – yes, I suppose even those that are decomposed – are awaiting their wake-up call on the resurrection morning.
Without doubt, it is the doctrine of the resurrection of the body that has motivated the Christian practice of burial and the Israelite practice before it. Everywhere Christianity has spread, cremation has given way to proper and respectful burial. Christians have a robust view of the body, both in life and in death. One of the great comforts as we face disease and sickness and death in this life is the knowledge that they will not have the last word. No, it is these bodies that are so integrally a part of ourselves that will be resurrected in glory, imperishable and immortal. And though we acknowledge the physics of the grave we are not in alliance with them, nor with death at any level. The apostle Paul writes, in 1 Thessalonians 4:
Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him… For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. (vv. 13-16).
Everything about that description tells us to honor, to preserve, yes, even to dedicate real estate to the bodies of those our beloved who having died are with Christ in the spirit, and awaiting the resurrection of their bodies in the morning of the new creation. http://www.tenth.org/qbox/qb_000709.htm