Should we obey church leadership, or the Holy Spirit?

[Tenchi]

Sure Tenchi, if that is what you think. FYI, whether my heart is right before God or not, only he knows. I am not here to plead my case with you all, just to suggest follow Christ and reason from scripture for all that men share. You either have the Holy Spirit or you don't and for those who have it it's possible to grieve the Holy Spirit.

Uh huh.

 

[Follower Of Christ]

Uh huh.

Tenchi for you own good here we go. There are two options here:

1. If I was wrong in me accusing you before Christ, then you should have kept your silence and offered the other cheek with your implicit silence and blessed me in silence. A implies B is equivalent to not B implies not A.
2. I was right before Christ.

Catch my drift? Don't get dialectical with me for in my past I have been well versed in the doctrines of the world.

That's the end of my conversation with you. Please feel free to write what you want after this. You can have the last word if you really wish.

 

[Tenchi]

But now, the early church was not so subjective. They received very specific direction on where they were to go and what they were to do. Take Paul's travels to Asia for example:

6 Now when they had gone through Phrygia and the region of Galatia, they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the word in Asia. 7 After they had come to Mysia, they tried to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit did not permit them. 8 So passing by Mysia, they came down to Troas. 9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night. A man of Macedonia stood and pleaded with him, saying, “Come over to Macedonia and help us.” 10 Now after he had seen the vision, immediately we sought to go to Macedonia, concluding that the Lord had called us to preach the gospel to them. (Acts 16)

There are other passages I could cite, such as the commissioning of Paul and Barnabas, or the call of Peter to go preach to the Gentiles (something he was initially not all that comfortable with). But the point is that they were specifically led by the Holy Spirit to go to certain places but not to others. This is more than just knowing what sort of lifestyle to live or what kind of character to have. Do you not think such specific leadings are still necessary in the Christian walk today?

I think, by-and-large, that the sort of leading of the Holy Spirit described in the New Testament, and in Acts in particular, is no longer necessary, commonly. We have the word of God which is sufficient to guide the Christian, if not by specific command, or example, by applied principle (2 Timothy 3:16-17; Psalm 119; 1 Peter 2:2, Matthew 4:4, etc.). Most especially, I don't see any instance in either the Old or New Testaments where God speaks by some private, inner "voice" directly to the mind of a person. It's assumed by many that this is case in various instances in the Bible where such an assumption seems at least possible, but I can find no place in Scripture where the "voice" of God, of the Spirit, is said to have communicated directly and inaudibly to a person's mind. Instead, what I do read of are occasions where God used angels, dreams, visions, burning bushes, prophets, a disembodied hand writing on a wall, an external, audible voice speaking from the mouth of a cave, even a talking donkey, to communicate to people. And when He did, there was typically no uncertainty that He had spoken and ultimately no confusion as to what He had communicated. This is a far cry from the current highly-subjectivized, "still, small, inner voice" that Christians must be trained by self-proclaimed "specialists" - for various sums of money - to hear.

 

[Tenchi]

Tenchi for you own good here we go. There are two options here:

1. If I was wrong in me accusing you before Christ, then you should have kept your silence and offered the other cheek with your implicit silence and blessed me in silence. A implies B is equivalent to not B implies not A.
2. I was right before Christ.

Catch my drift? Don't get dialectical with me for in my past I have been well versed in the doctrines of the world.

That's the end of my conversation with you. Please feel free to write what you want after this. You can have the last word if you really wish.

Uh huh.

 

[for_his_glory]

And so, what is the leading of the Holy Spirit, exactly? What does it look like? How is the leading of the Holy Spirit clearly distinguished from mere inner self-talk masquerading as "the Spirit's voice," or from a demonic counterfeit that does the same? What objective, authoritative basis does the Christian have for saying confidently, "The Holy Spirit led me in this direction"?

The matter of "Spirit leading" has become, I think, an incredibly subjectivized, confused and even blasphemous region of Christian thought and practice. Spirit-toking, soaking and drunkenness are ugly examples. Benny Hinn, Todd White, and Kenneth Copeland (to name only a few) have been making merchandise and fools of believers for years, encouraging them into all sorts of highly-subjective false doctrines and sensual paganistic "spirituality." And so, in response, some believers have institutionalized "experiencing God," making interactions with Him possible only in "authorized" worship services, official sacramental rituals, and the teaching of ordained, institutionally-acknowledged clergy. Others have intellectualized the faith, making themselves certain of it, not because they experience God directly and personally every day, but because they have marshaled a robust philosophical, historical and natural apologetic for their faith. They have no need, then, of the sort of subjective experience of God that they see lends itself to distortion of God and His Truth.

I've been discipling believers for almost thirty years and have had to explain - biblically - the matter of the "leading of the Spirit" many times and so am quite curious what will be offered in this thread. My expectation is that there will be the usual misrepresentation of Scripture, deep confusion and hyper-subjectivity that attends modern Christian thought on this subject. But, maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised.

To speak of the Spirit's leading is to speak of life in the Spirit, of the daily transformative work of the Holy Spirit within every genuine, born-again child of God. The Christian who wants to tell me they are being led of the Spirit, must be able to explain how he is working every day within them in the manner in which the Bible says he will.

John 14:26
John 16:8-13
Ephesians 3:16
Romans 8:9-16
1 Corinthians 2:10-16
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
2 Corinthians 3:18
Galatians 5:16, 25

And so on.

There is no difference between what you call a modern Christian then what the first Christians learned on the day of Pentecost when their Spiritual eyes and ears were opened to receive all truth through the indwelling and anointing of the Holy Spirit. God's word is the same yesterday, today and forever as He has never added to it or taken away from it like the carnal minded man has done throughout the centuries. Even if we did not have the written word the Holy Spirit would still teach us all that God gave to Jesus to speak.

Act 11:25 Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul:
Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
Those who are Spiritually born again from above and indwelled with the Holy Spirit are also disciples of Christ as the word Christian means to be Christlike in all we do and say.

Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Rev 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

That new Jerusalem is the true body of Christ that have made themselves ready for the coming of the Lord as our leadership is that of the Holy Spirit that works through those who have been anointed and called to the ministry of Christ given gifts from the Holy Spirit for the purpose of God who has set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues, 1Corinthians 12:27-31.

 

[for_his_glory]

This is a long post but let me at least play off of this right here, because the analogy of army leadership will be especially relevant in the end-times (Joel 2:28-31)

Going back to the OP, here is the problem I see. Soldiers don't choose who they will fight with, they are assigned who they will fight with. Maybe they would wish to be in this unit but higher command tells them they are in this one instead. Does a true soldier simply go wherever he wants to or does he go where he is ordered to go? It again has to do with how many Christians truly hear from the Spirit of God enough to know what His specific will for their life is, and if one doesn't then he is adrift and not really under the leadership of the Holy Spirit yet, at least not to any great degree. It's only when we enter into the center of God's specific will and can hear Him directing our affairs on a daily basis that we even make sense in the army of God, and much of the church is IMO still in a place where they are a disorganized rabble.

A true soldier of Christ will always follow the leadership of the Holy Spirit who anoints and sends that soldier out into the battlefield, but to know the battle belongs to the Lord.

 

[Follower Of Christ]

That new Jerusalem is the true body of Christ that have made themselves ready for the coming of the Lord as our leadership is that of the Holy Spirit that works through those who have been anointed and called to the ministry of Christ given gifts from the Holy Spirit for the purpose of God who has set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues,

And the ones in the true body of Christ fully understand Matthew 5:23-26 "So if you are offering your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother and then come and offer your gift. Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge and the judge to the guard and you be put in prison. Truly I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny."

 

[Hidden In Him]

For, only a body whose heart is right before God can follow Christ and that body understands Christ is the head.

Exactly. He must be the Head of the body in more than just word only but in day to day actions, and not just for each of us as individuals but the church as a whole. This was Paul's theology.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Most especially, I don't see any instance in either the Old or New Testaments where God speaks by some private, inner "voice" directly to the mind of a person. It's assumed by many that this is case in various instances in the Bible where such an assumption seems at least possible, but I can find no place in Scripture where the "voice" of God, of the Spirit, is said to have communicated directly and inaudibly to a person's mind. Instead, what I do read of are occasions where God used angels, dreams, visions, burning bushes, prophets, a disembodied hand writing on a wall, an external, audible voice speaking from the mouth of a cave, even a talking donkey, to communicate to people.

Let me start here, and personally I agree with this. The examples that I cited or made references to were of visions. Other New and Old Testament examples I could give came through dreams. Now on your statement about there not being any uncertainty or ambiguity, here is where I would take issue. Visions and dreams have to be interpreted, but this is the agency of the Holy Spirit in His servants to prove who is the Most High (by who is used to speak the truth; those who serve the darkness or those who serve the True God). The servants of Pharaoh could not interpret the dreams he received because they did not have God's help, whereas Joseph did. For those reading the Bible today it seems like, "Well of course that's what the dreams meant," but that's because they are now reading it in the word of God and know the end of the story. If they were presented with similar dreams today, most would likely not be able to interpret them accurately, even though this is the prerogative of believers in Christ Jesus through the Holy Spirit.

I think, by-and-large, that the sort of leading of the Holy Spirit described in the New Testament, and in Acts in particular, is no longer necessary, commonly. We have the word of God which is sufficient to guide the Christian, if not by specific command, or example, by applied principle (2 Timothy 3:16-17; Psalm 119; 1 Peter 2:2, Matthew 4:4, etc.).

This is my main problem with the Cessationist argument, and it seems to me that it is built more upon a doctrinal stance than common sense. Wouldn't they want to know His specific will if they could have it? Wouldn't they want to receive direct counsel on a specific matter they are facing, or prophetic warning about a very specific attack that is coming to their family or their marriage or their church in the near future? My wife told me that her church received just such a warning that was fulfilled a few days ago. They had received both prophecies and dreams that witches were going to be attempting to cast spells on their church because it is growing, and being used of God to reach people for Christ. Well, a few days ago the pastor and his wife decided to drive to the church at a different time of day than normal for something, and when they got there there was a woman who looked like she was into the occult and she was motioning with her hands and speaking what sounded like curses over the building and the congregation. You don't think it would be valuable to know things like that are going to occur so the church can be praying against it in advance? That's just a small example among many I could give, but receiving specific direction from the Spirit of God concerning such things is very important IMO, especially in the spiritual war, which still goes on today just like it did in New and Old Testament times.

 

[for_his_glory]

I think, by-and-large, that the sort of leading of the Holy Spirit described in the New Testament, and in Acts in particular, is no longer necessary, commonly. We have the word of God which is sufficient to guide the Christian, if not by specific command, or example, by applied principle (2 Timothy 3:16-17; Psalm 119; 1 Peter 2:2, Matthew 4:4, etc.). Most especially, I don't see any instance in either the Old or New Testaments where God speaks by some private, inner "voice" directly to the mind of a person. It's assumed by many that this is case in various instances in the Bible where such an assumption seems at least possible, but I can find no place in Scripture where the "voice" of God, of the Spirit, is said to have communicated directly and inaudibly to a person's mind. Instead, what I do read of are occasions where God used angels, dreams, visions, burning bushes, prophets, a disembodied hand writing on a wall, an external, audible voice speaking from the mouth of a cave, even a talking donkey, to communicate to people. And when He did, there was typically no uncertainty that He had spoken and ultimately no confusion as to what He had communicated. This is a far cry from the current highly-subjectivized, "still, small, inner voice" that Christians must be trained by self-proclaimed "specialists" - for various sums of money - to hear.

If I am wrong please accept my apology, but aren't you of the ones that believe that Spiritual gifts are no longer needed today and have ended with the Disciples?

 

[for_his_glory]

And the ones in the true body of Christ fully understand Matthew 5:23-26 "So if you are offering your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother and then come and offer your gift. Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge and the judge to the guard and you be put in prison. Truly I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny."

not sure what this has to do with church leadership being of man or the Holy Spirit. Can you explain how this fits in, thank you.

 

[jasonc]

I know you did not ask me this question, but I would also like to answer it. In 1John 4:1-6 we are taught to test the spirits that are speaking to us. If what one says does not line up with scripture then they are only giving deceiving doctrines of a carnal mind with a carnal, not Spiritual, knowledge. Many say they are hearing the Holy Spirit speak to them, but we can clearly see the divisions that run rampant in many churches.

Plenty of led person's will miss read a chapter .




Case in point


If a man is to be an elder ..yet plenty of pentacostals say women can be elders ,it's a culture issue

Yet then say marriage is a man and woman which is defined by that as a requirement yet bend the word man to include a woman .

Or build a church next to the very one they left ..

There is no difference between what you call a modern Christian then what the first Christians learned on the day of Pentecost when their Spiritual eyes and ears were opened to receive all truth through the indwelling and anointing of the Holy Spirit. God's word is the same yesterday, today and forever as He has never added to it or taken away from it like the carnal minded man has done throughout the centuries. Even if we did not have the written word the Holy Spirit would still teach us all that God gave to Jesus to speak.

Act 11:25 Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul:
Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
Those who are Spiritually born again from above and indwelled with the Holy Spirit are also disciples of Christ as the word Christian means to be Christlike in all we do and say.

Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Rev 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

That new Jerusalem is the true body of Christ that have made themselves ready for the coming of the Lord as our leadership is that of the Holy Spirit that works through those who have been anointed and called to the ministry of Christ given gifts from the Holy Spirit for the purpose of God who has set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues, 1Corinthians 12:27-31.

Most pentacostals openly during worship speak in tongues and are in general prone to as tenchi says.

No many inquire to see if the person that does miracles is of God .

I can post oneness Pentacostals that deny the Trinity and they sound indentical to ones that do in actions.

If the modern church is the exact same who are the twelve ,modern day apostles ?

Are they females because well female apostles exist to in nar .

With my PTSD ,I hear a million voices .I learn not to trust that . Doesn't mean God doesn't speak but what is often paraded as such isnt .

I'm a bit slower to by the subjective voice of what I hear . If it is from God it will as I have seen it already be verified by others

 

[Follower Of Christ]

not sure what this has to do with church leadership being of man or the Holy Spirit. Can you explain how this fits in, thank you.

One can lay out as much treasure as they want in heaven and then lose it all in one day. We are urged to work out our salvation with fear and trembling and run the race following Christ to the end. Salvation is not guaranteed until the end. While we run our race we must not be puffed up and as Christ said in Mathew 5:22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgement; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says you fool will be liable to the hell of fire."

Paul himself said in 2 Timothy 4:7-8 "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness..."

It does not make me happy to have to answer you about this, but you urged me so I obliged. Blessings!

 

[for_his_glory]

One can lay out as much treasure as they want in heaven and then lose it all in one day. We are urged to work out our salvation with fear and trembling and run the race following Christ to the end. Salvation is not guaranteed until the end. While we run our race we must not be puffed up and as Christ said in Mathew 5:22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgement; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says you fool will be liable to the hell of fire."

Paul himself said in 2 Timothy 4:7-8 "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness..."

It does not make me happy to have to answer you about this, but you urged me so I obliged. Blessings!

I do appreciate you explaining this further as now I understand what you were saying in that other post and do agree.

 

[for_his_glory]

Plenty of led person's will miss read a chapter .




Case in point


If a man is to be an elder ..yet plenty of pentacostals say women can be elders ,it's a culture issue

Yet then say marriage is a man and woman which is defined by that as a requirement yet bend the word man to include a woman .

Or build a church next to the very one they left ..

Most pentacostals openly during worship speak in tongues and are in general prone to as tenchi says.

No many inquire to see if the person that does miracles is of God .

I can post oneness Pentacostals that deny the Trinity and they sound indentical to ones that do in actions.

If the modern church is the exact same who are the twelve ,modern day apostles ?

Are they females because well female apostles exist to in nar .

With my PTSD ,I hear a million voices .I learn not to trust that . Doesn't mean God doesn't speak but what is often paraded as such isnt .

I'm a bit slower to by the subjective voice of what I hear . If it is from God it will as I have seen it already be verified by others

What I meant by the modern church's of today is that so many (denominations/non-denominations) have strayed away from the sound doctrines that Christ first taught as they allow man to teach them apart from the calling and anointing of the Holy Spirit.

 

[jasonc]

What I meant by the modern church's of today is that so many (denominations/non-denominations) have strayed away from the sound doctrines that Christ first taught as they allow man to teach them apart from the calling and anointing of the Holy Spirit.

In another words there are no grey areas in the bible also known as secondary

These are escapology
Ways to administer baptism .is it infant ,sprinkling full immersion or in a lake or river or spring ?
Gifts for today or then
Calvinism or arminism

Types of styles of worship

Low church versus high church

In my county the oldest church is a missionary Baptist Church these are older them Lutheranism.
These sound closest to the calvinst but aren't considered that .no worship music or missionary as we know. Yet history shows that tiny subset is older then the reformed movement .

Some feel the need to have strong opinions on the secondary issues that they wouldn't in my church ,you could never be an elder ,teach or have authority over men .yet my church rents to a church that is opposite .

What you might call a division is simply at times people feeling so strong that ie.i can't be under a female pastor these days. I don't agree with it.shoukd I be considered lost because I see the scripture plainly ?

The list of the elder requirements is that he must rule over the house well.

Not even in the various churches that ordain women is the man to follow the woman in a marriage . I know the weak arguments but my point is like my pastor and the church founder whom I know well.he spoke at an old pentacostal church often that I attended and was raised charismatic and sees that issue of female leadership as a minor issue .yet can't agree with it.

When I hear non demontional I cringe because I can go to the biggest claimed of it and find hardcore positions on issues that are secondary .

Calvary chapel under chuck Smith's doesn't ordain women. They don't teach the gifts on the book of Corinthians as the charismatics do.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Well, with his family, the control bordered on serious abuse and neglect, which is why his wife finally left him. But yes, it was being felt by upper leadership as well, and that's why his turnover rate among leaders was very high. If someone completely knuckled under, they'd receive the highest praise, but if they had any objections whatsoever they would be ostracized and publicly shamed during a service (albeit in sneaky underhanded ways, but everyone knew what he was doing and who he would be talking about).

Big time control freak, and the closer you got to him the more obvious it became. The trouble is he no longer allows that many people very close. We can't stand to be in the same room with him now. He makes our skin crawl.

That sounds terrible, maybe he should be deposed. Nonetheless I'd suggest that judge him primarily by his message, view and merit, secondarily by his personality.

 

[Hidden In Him]

That sounds terrible, maybe he should be deposed. Nonetheless I'd suggest that judge him primarily by his message, view and merit, secondarily by his personality.

Part of his message includes that members of his congregation will come under judgment from God unless they give financially.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Part of his message includes that members of his congregation will come under judgment from God unless they give financially.

Well, love of money is the root of all evil.

 

[follower]

There was a thread recently created which touched on the issue of spontaneity, and whether Christians should be able to go where they want or be confined to the limits of one particular group (which presumably applies to things like only attending one church, for instance).

Would it be okay if a member of a military platoon in cambodia or anywhere 'hostile'
went out on the town on his own ?