Should we obey church leadership, or the Holy Spirit?

[hawkman]

Would it be okay if a member of a military platoon in cambodia or anywhere 'hostile'
went out on the town on his own ?

Is the "member" mentioned above a Christian ?

 

[Tenchi]

Now on your statement about there not being any uncertainty or ambiguity, here is where I would take issue. Visions and dreams have to be interpreted, but this is the agency of the Holy Spirit in His servants to prove who is the Most High (by who is used to speak the truth; those who serve the darkness or those who serve the True God). The servants of Pharaoh could not interpret the dreams he received because they did not have God's help, whereas Joseph did. For those reading the Bible today it seems like, "Well of course that's what the dreams meant," but that's because they are now reading it in the word of God and know the end of the story. If they were presented with similar dreams today, most would likely not be able to interpret them accurately, even though this is the prerogative of believers in Christ Jesus through the Holy Spirit.

I was careful to write,

"Instead, what I do read of are occasions where God used angels, dreams, visions, burning bushes, prophets, a disembodied hand writing on a wall, an external, audible voice speaking from the mouth of a cave, even a talking donkey, to communicate to people. And when He did, there was typically no uncertainty that He had spoken and ultimately no confusion as to what He had communicated."

If God had something that He wanted to communicate immediately to a person concerning something in their near-future, He always ultimately made it quite clear what it was He had to say and that it was He who was saying it. Yes, he used people like Joseph and Daniel to interpret dreams, and also prophets, angels and audible, disembodied voices, as in the cases of Moses, Elijah and Paul. My point was that, if I go by the record of God's word, I see that nothing will prevent God from communicating to someone if He's determined to communicate with them and that, should He do so, they will know that it is He who has communicated. Such direct-from-God communication is not contingent upon the sensitivity of the one receiving God's communication. In the Bible, God spoke just as directly and plainly to those who were enemies toward Him (Paul, Nebuchadnezzar, Pharaoh, etc.) as to those who were His allies and servants. So, then, what is all this "learn to be sensitive to the voice of the Spirit" stuff? Where is this taught clearly in Scripture? Why are no instructions as to how to develop such sensitivity plainly spelled-out in God's word? He is not the Author of confusion, we're told in Scripture, so why think, contrary to the record of His word, that God's communications are so vague, so occult (hidden, not demonic) and "quiet" that only the most well-trained has any hope of discerning them?

I look at the Bible itself, God's special revelation of His Person and will, and see in it just how determined God is to be clear and comprehensive in His communication to us. Why, then, do Christians want to imagine that He's speaking today with such a "still, small voice" that only the "Spirit specialist" can hear Him? This type of thinking about how God communicates just doesn't align with His efforts to make Himself clear to us and to provide us with "light unto our path."

Psalm 119:104-105
104 Through your precepts I get understanding; therefore I hate every false way.
105 Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path.

Psalm 119:130
130 The unfolding of your words gives light; it imparts understanding to the simple.

Psalm 19:8
8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

This is my main problem with the Cessationist argument,

If I'm a Cessationist, I'm a soft one. I think there are occasions today when God may establish His supremacy in a place that has been dominated by darkness. On such occasions, He acts in supernatural ways, not to thrill the sensual Christian seeking "spiritual" excitement, but to deliver the lost bound in darkness into His kingdom of light and love. In general, though, I don't think God carries on this way - certainly never just to stimulate His children's desire for a supernatural "show."

it seems to me that it is built more upon a doctrinal stance than common sense. Wouldn't they want to know His specific will if they could have it? Wouldn't they want to receive direct counsel on a specific matter they are facing, or prophetic warning about a very specific attack that is coming to their family or their marriage or their church in the near future?

As I said, if there aren't specific commands, or directly-applicable examples in Scripture that a person might apply to their unique situation, there are spiritual principles and wisdom offered in God's word that can always be applied to it. In any case, why would I need to know what's coming if God does? My strength and refuge are in Him, not in knowing what's approaching. He's got my back, so to speak, and I need to know nothing more than this when facing the present and the future. So long as I'm walking daily in fellowship with God, leading my family well spiritually, living in careful accord with the will of God given to me in the Bible, I can rest secure in the love and strength of my Heavenly Father, blind to the future though I may be. His Spirit dwells within me, as close as thought, imparting to me all I need to navigate life in a God-pleasing way. In light of these things, no, I don't need to have any sort of "prophetic warning."

Continued below.

 

[Tenchi]

As for knowing God's specific will for me as His child, well, that is always most easily discerned in the midst of my living in careful alignment/obedience to His general will revealed in His word. It's been my observation that those who are the least careful to be doing so are the ones most uncertain about what God's will is for them and so the most desirous of His specific direction of them through direct-to-mind communications. Many times I've asked those who come to me concerning questions of God's specific will for them whether or not they are following God's general will given to all of His children. Are they obeying the First and Great Commandment, loving God with all of their being and others self-sacrificially (Matthew 22:36-38; 1 John 4:7-11)? Are they living in an attitude of prayer each day (Ephesians 6:18)? Are they maintaining a place of humble submission to God at all times (Romans 12:1; Romans 6:13-22; James 4:7, etc.)? Are they growing more holy, more separated unto God as the days pass (2 Corinthians 6:14-18; 1 Peter 1:15-16; Ephesians 5:1-13)? The ones most confused and uncertain about God's specific will just for them are ALWAYS, in my experience anyway, those who cannot say a confident "Yes!" to these questions.

It seems very evident to me, though, that a necessary predicate of discerning God's specific will for me, is living well in His general will for me. Why would I expect to be able to discern His specific will for me when I am being careless and neglectful of His general will?

Typically, in my experience, those with questions about God's will are looking for direction on "big" issues: What should I do as a career? Who should I marry? Should I take this job, or the other one? Which house, or car, should I buy? And so on. The stakes seem very high in these matters and so God becomes...useful in making a decision about them. It's always seemed very strange to me how these Christians who want God's mind on these big issues, think He ought to guide them clearly though they have been ignoring His will entirely in what they think are "smaller" matters: holiness, submission, study of His word, evangelism, prayer, spiritual service, etc. They may have a drinking problem, or be addicted to porn, or have little control over their temper, or be a slanderous gossip, or are living in sexual sin, or be a glutton and badly overweight, but, somehow, they think they can go to God for His direction in "important" situations. Not surprisingly, they find God very silent.

Psalm 66:18
18 If I regard wickedness in my heart, The Lord will not hear;
Isaiah 59:2
2 But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear.

1 Peter 3:10-12
10 For “Whoever desires to love life and see good days, let him keep his tongue from evil and his lips from speaking deceit;
11 let him turn away from evil and do good; let him seek peace and pursue it.
12 For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, and his ears are open to their prayer. But the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.”

My wife told me that her church received just such a warning that was fulfilled a few days ago. They had received both prophecies and dreams that witches were going to be attempting to cast spells on their church because it is growing, and being used of God to reach people for Christ. Well, a few days ago the pastor and his wife decided to drive to the church at a different time of day than normal for something, and when they got there there was a woman who looked like she was into the occult and she was motioning with her hands and speaking what sounded like curses over the building and the congregation. You don't think it would be valuable to know things like that are going to occur so the church can be praying against it in advance?

No. Why would it? God doesn't protect His children, His Church, only so long as they know the plans of those who are their Satanic enemies and can pray against them. The best protection an individual or community of believers have is in God-honoring, Spirit-submitted, Christ-centered living; for it is in the fellowship with God such living produces that the believer is kept in "perfect peace" and able to effectively resist the devil (James 4:7; Isaiah 26:3-4; Psalm 3:3; 28:7; 2 Corinthians 10:3-5, etc).

 

[follower]

Is the "member" mentioned above a Christian ?

Remember the Centurian ? "under authority"
as
Jesus noted the Centurian being with/having more faith than Israelites/Hebrews ?
Is it forgotten so easily that followers of Jesus are at war in this world, in the spiritual realm as well as with many carnalities internal and external ?
"at war" , daily, ongoing constant and consistent fighting and struggles (spiritual and worldly) ?

 

[Tenchi]

There is no difference between what you call a modern Christian then what the first Christians learned on the day of Pentecost when their Spiritual eyes and ears were opened to receive all truth through the indwelling and anointing of the Holy Spirit. God's word is the same yesterday, today and forever as He has never added to it or taken away from it like the carnal minded man has done throughout the centuries. Even if we did not have the written word the Holy Spirit would still teach us all that God gave to Jesus to speak.

??? I'm afraid this is a bit of a...tangled set of assertions.

There are, for example, very distinct differences of many kinds between the "modern" Christian and the first born-again Jewish disciples of Christ filled with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. Culture, 2000 years of Church history and doctrinal refinement, a long-established New Testament canon, and technology are all very significant differences one can point to in distinguishing the modern, born-again Christian from the very first ones we read about in Acts 2.

Yes, the Holy Spirit at Pentecost is the same Spirit dwelling within believers today but he has been working in and through the Church for 2000 years and this has created large differences between the first born-again Christians at Pentecost in Acts 2 and those of today in what they understood of the doctrines of the faith and the structural context within which Church life takes place. The Church no longer requires supernatural establishment as it did in Acts; the canon of the New Testament is complete now as it wasn't yet in the events recorded in Acts; spiritual leadership and authority of the apostolic sort, able to write Scripture and form Christian doctrine and mandate Church roles and rituals is long past. All of these things have a great bearing I think, on what the modern believer ought to expect in regards to how God acts among His people and through them in the world.

The canon of God's word is now closed, yes. It is eternal and unchanging, yes. But we do have it, complete and true, and do not, therefore, require "new revelation" popular in certain regions of the Christian community. As well, there is little need for "hearing the Spirit" who, we are told in God's word, will "bring to remembrance" the words of Christ (John 14:26), which is actually the entire Bible. "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God" who is Christ. If, then, I want to hear from the Holy Spirit, I simply need to be steeping myself in God's word, the words of Christ, which the Spirit will then bring to my remembrance when he has something to "say" to me.

If I am wrong please accept my apology, but aren't you of the ones that believe that Spiritual gifts are no longer needed today and have ended with the Disciples?

As I said to Hidden In Him, I am what I would call a "soft Cessationist," which is one who believes that the office of apostle and prophet in the Church were concluded millennia ago and that the supernatural acts we read of in Acts that established the Early Church and the spiritual authority of the apostles who led it rarely happens now. I am not of the view, though, that God never acts supernaturally to establish His Church in places where darkness has held sway. He certainly can - and does, on the rare occasion - heal, or protect, or lead His children miraculously. But the current rabid pursuit of God for miraculous signs by some of His children is a testament to their carnality, not their spirituality, to their desire for sensual stimulation rather than transformation of their "inner wo/man."

 

[Hidden In Him]

if I go by the record of God's word, I see that nothing will prevent God from communicating to someone if He's determined to communicate with them and that, should He do so, they will know that it is He who has communicated. Such direct-from-God communication is not contingent upon the sensitivity of the one receiving God's communication

Oooh...

Ok no, Tenchi. Gonna have to take strong issue here. The interpretation of dreams and visions is much like the interpretation of parables, and they were not simply what you refer to as "direct-from-God communication." They were instead very much contingent upon the sensitivity of the one receiving the communication, and He rather strongly reprimanded the disciples when they didn't have the wherewithal to interpret even the most basic of them:

10 But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable. 11 And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, 12 so that ‘Seeing they may see and not perceive, and hearing they may hear and not understand; Lest they should turn, and their sins be forgiven them.’” 13 And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? (Mark 4:10-13)

Jesus was here quoting what He said to the prophet Isaiah in Isaiah 6, which reads as follows:

9 And He said, “Go, and tell this people, ‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand. Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’ 10 “Make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and shut their eyes, lest they see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and return and be healed.” 11 Then I said, “Lord, how long?” And He answered, “Until the cities are laid waste and without inhabitant, the houses are without a man, and the land is utterly desolate" (Isaiah 6:9-11)

Dullness of spiritual hearing was an indictment upon the nation of Israel, and because the disciples were also so dull that they couldn't understand the most basic of parables and He would have to explain it to them, they came under correction for it as well. The same can easily be said of dreams.

Why do you think He speaks to people in dreams at all, Tenchi? He could simply speak things into our ears audibly if He wanted to. The reason is because He WANTS us to develop spiritual perception and discernment. He WANTS us to draw closer to Him, close enough so that we can interpret parables, dreams, visions and any other form of communication He desires to use clearly, even though to the rest of the world - and maybe more importantly to believers who are dull-of-hearing because they have no zeal for Him - they sound like mumbo jumbo. There is a principle being taught here, and it is the need to draw CLOSE to the Lord, and not simply go through the motions of religion but disregard the commandment to love the Lord with your whole heart, whole mind, whole soul, and whole strength earnestly.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Oooh...

Ok no, Tenchi. Gonna have to take strong issue here. The interpretation of dreams and visions is much like the interpretation of parables, and they were not simply what you refer to as "direct-from-God communication." They were instead very much contingent upon the sensitivity of the one receiving the communication, and He rather strongly reprimanded the disciples when they didn't have the wherewithal to interpret even the most basic of them:

10 But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable. 11 And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, 12 so that ‘Seeing they may see and not perceive, and hearing they may hear and not understand; Lest they should turn, and their sins be forgiven them.’” 13 And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? (Mark 4:10-13)

Jesus was here quoting what He said to the prophet Isaiah in Isaiah 6, which reads as follows:

9 And He said, “Go, and tell this people, ‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand. Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’ 10 “Make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and shut their eyes, lest they see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and return and be healed.” 11 Then I said, “Lord, how long?” And He answered, “Until the cities are laid waste and without inhabitant, the houses are without a man, and the land is utterly desolate" (Isaiah 6:9-11)

Dullness of spiritual hearing was an indictment upon the nation of Israel, and because the disciples were also so dull that they couldn't understand the most basic of parables and He would have to explain it to them, they came under correction for it as well. The same can easily be said of dreams.

Why do you think He speaks to people in dreams at all, Tenchi? He could simply speak things into our ears audibly if He wanted to. The reason is because He WANTS us to develop spiritual perception and discernment. He WANTS us to draw closer to Him, close enough so that we can interpret parables, dreams, visions and any other form of communication He desires to use clearly, even though to the rest of the world - and maybe more importantly to believers who are dull-of-hearing because they have no zeal for Him - they sound like mumbo jumbo. There is a principle being taught here, and it is the need to draw CLOSE to the Lord, and not simply go through the motions of religion but disregard the commandment to love the Lord with your whole heart, whole mind, whole soul, and whole strength earnestly.

Amen, I think, we should always obey the Holy Spirit, great thread.

Love, Walter

Love, Walter

 

[Hidden In Him]

No. Why would it? God doesn't protect His children, His Church, only so long as they know the plans of those who are their Satanic enemies and can pray against them. The best protection an individual or community of believers have is in God-honoring, Spirit-submitted, Christ-centered living; for it is in the fellowship with God such living produces that the believer is kept in "perfect peace" and able to effectively resist the devil (James 4:7; Isaiah 26:3-4; Psalm 3:3; 28:7; 2 Corinthians 10:3-5, etc).

We are not in disagreement here. The question is HOW does the Lord protect his people, and the Biblical answer is that He often informs them supernatural through things like dreams and visions to know the plans of the enemy before they happen, and move to counteract them before they succeed.

When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. “Get up,” he said, “take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him.” (Matthew 2:13)

 

[Hidden In Him]

It's always seemed very strange to me how these Christians who want God's mind on these big issues, think He ought to guide them clearly though they have been ignoring His will entirely in what they think are "smaller" matters: holiness, submission, study of His word, evangelism, prayer, spiritual service, etc.

On this part we agree again, btw. It is all supposed to work together. If His people are close to Him they will be able to hear everything He communicates. If they are distant, they will not even be able to hear Him on the most basic things. This is why non-believers don't even get some of the most basic teachings in scripture. It's like a different language to them. And the farther they are from Him spiritually, the more everything sounds like a jumble. Crowley was a brilliant man fluent in over seven languages, but when it came to the Bible he said he couldn't make heads or tails of it, yet he understood occult teachings very deeply. Why is that? The spirit within him was demonic throughout, so the things of God were completely blocked off to him. But for those who have the Spirit of God within them, even the deeper mysteries of God should not be.

 

[Tenchi]

Oooh...

Ok no, Tenchi. Gonna have to take strong issue here. The interpretation of dreams and visions is much like the interpretation of parables, and they were not simply what you refer to as "direct-from-God communication." They were instead very much contingent upon the sensitivity of the one receiving the communication, and He rather strongly reprimanded the disciples when they didn't have the wherewithal to interpret even the most basic of them:

10 But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable. 11 And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, 12 so that ‘Seeing they may see and not perceive, and hearing they may hear and not understand; Lest they should turn, and their sins be forgiven them.’” 13 And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? (Mark 4:10-13)

Well, how can visions or dreams given by God not be directly from Him? The interpretation of these things might have required the extra step of an interpreter being brought along to interpret, but, even then, what God wanted to communicate through a vision or dream He did not fail to communicate to the one to whom He had given the vision or dream. Neither Nebuchadnezzar, nor Pharaoh were what I would call sensitive to the "voice" of God and yet they got His message(s), loud and clear, despite being delivered to them via dreams and God's interpreter.

Yes, Christ chided his disciples about their hardness of mind and heart but he was often purposefully concealing the meaning of his teachings. Even so, he took pains on occasion to explain various parables to the Twelve, and before he returned to heaven he did as follows:

Luke 24:44-48
44 Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled."
45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,
46 and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day,
47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
48 "You are witnesses of these things.

What I've said, then, continues to hold true concerning God's ability to make Himself well understood. Even the dull Twelve were made to understand, in due time, what it was God intended for them to understand.

Why do you think He speaks to people in dreams at all, Tenchi? He could simply speak things into our ears audibly if He wanted to. The reason is because He WANTS us to develop spiritual perception and discernment.

No, I think, in the record of Scripture, God used dreams and His agent of interpretation of them to make it VERY clear that He had sent the dream and to draw out into public view that He had in order, at least in part, to glorify Himself. There's no good scriptural ground that I'm aware of for saying that Pharaoh's dreaming baker, or cup-bearer, or Pharaoh himself had been made more spiritually perceptive or discerning by Joseph's interpretation of their dreams. And what of Nebuchadnezzar, or his son Belshazzar? I don't recall reading in Scripture that they'd been improved in the spiritual discernment and perception department...

He WANTS us to draw closer to Him, close enough so that we can interpret parables, dreams, visions and any other form of communication He desires to use clearly, even though to the rest of the world - and maybe more importantly to believers who are dull-of-hearing because they have no zeal for Him - they sound like mumbo jumbo.

Yes, God wants us to draw near to Him, but chiefly that we might enjoy all He made us to enjoy in Himself. But as the examples above demonstrate, God does not need a person close at all to Himself in order to communicate with them. Abraham wasn't an especially devout man, pursuing God assiduously and thus prepared to hear from Him. Not at all. Neither was Moses when he encountered the burning bush. Or Pharaoh. Or Balaam. Or Paul. And yet, God communicated directly and unmistakably with each of them. I don't see, then, any solid biblical basis for thinking God wants us near so He can communicate with us. He can communicate with us whatever our distance from Him.

Do we have to be walking well with God, though, to be used of God to interpret visions and dreams? Generally, yes, if the record of the Bible is anything to go by. But God's chief purpose in drawing us near is so that we might enjoy Him fully, not so that we might be interpreters of visions and dreams. Certainly, he doesn't want the latter as any sort of primary motivation for the former, for moving into deeper and deeper fellowship with Himself. But this isn't what I see among those who are fascinated and obsessed with supernatural signs, like dreams and visions and their interpretation. It isn't God Himself, sans all miraculous doings, that these folk want; He's only truly interesting so long as He's thrilling them with new, sensual manifestations of His presence and power.

We are not in disagreement here. The question is HOW does the Lord protect his people, and the Biblical answer is that He often informs them supernatural through things like dreams and visions to know the plans of the enemy before they happen, and move to counteract them before they succeed.

When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. “Get up,” he said, “take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him.” (Matthew 2:13)

God often informs them via dreams and visions? Sometimes, perhaps. You've offered one example. God also - and I think far more commonly - uses His word, His wisdom, commands, and spiritual principles given to us in Scripture, to warn us of evil, and show us how to wage spiritual warfare, and teach us how to make good, God-honoring decisions. If we are careful to be well-armed spiritually with the "sword of the Spirit" and the spiritual protection fellowship with God provides, we have most of what is necessary to defend ourselves against the World, the Flesh and the devil.

In any case, I don't know of any place in God's word where the child of God is urged to rely upon dreams and visions as important means for navigating life and defending against evil. The most important thing spiritually - fellowship with God - does not rely in the slightest upon such things.

 

[for_his_glory]

??? I'm afraid this is a bit of a...tangled set of assertions.

There are, for example, very distinct differences of many kinds between the "modern" Christian and the first born-again Jewish disciples of Christ filled with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. Culture, 2000 years of Church history and doctrinal refinement, a long-established New Testament canon, and technology are all very significant differences one can point to in distinguishing the modern, born-again Christian from the very first ones we read about in Acts 2.

Yes, the Holy Spirit at Pentecost is the same Spirit dwelling within believers today but he has been working in and through the Church for 2000 years and this has created large differences between the first born-again Christians at Pentecost in Acts 2 and those of today in what they understood of the doctrines of the faith and the structural context within which Church life takes place. The Church no longer requires supernatural establishment as it did in Acts; the canon of the New Testament is complete now as it wasn't yet in the events recorded in Acts; spiritual leadership and authority of the apostolic sort, able to write Scripture and form Christian doctrine and mandate Church roles and rituals is long past. All of these things have a great bearing I think, on what the modern believer ought to expect in regards to how God acts among His people and through them in the world.

The canon of God's word is now closed, yes. It is eternal and unchanging, yes. But we do have it, complete and true, and do not, therefore, require "new revelation" popular in certain regions of the Christian community. As well, there is little need for "hearing the Spirit" who, we are told in God's word, will "bring to remembrance" the words of Christ (John 14:26), which is actually the entire Bible. "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God" who is Christ. If, then, I want to hear from the Holy Spirit, I simply need to be steeping myself in God's word, the words of Christ, which the Spirit will then bring to my remembrance when he has something to "say" to me.



As I said to Hidden In Him, I am what I would call a "soft Cessationist," which is one who believes that the office of apostle and prophet in the Church were concluded millennia ago and that the supernatural acts we read of in Acts that established the Early Church and the spiritual authority of the apostles who led it rarely happens now. I am not of the view, though, that God never acts supernaturally to establish His Church in places where darkness has held sway. He certainly can - and does, on the rare occasion - heal, or protect, or lead His children miraculously. But the current rabid pursuit of God for miraculous signs by some of His children is a testament to their carnality, not their spirituality, to their desire for sensual stimulation rather than transformation of their "inner wo/man."

Has God's word changed from the time He gave Jesus what to speak, no.
Has God's full instruction to the administration of His Church being the body of Christ ever change, no
Has God's miracles stopped today as in the examples of Jesus supernaturally preforming them, no.
Is faith the same today as it was in the beginning, yes.
Are the gifts of the Holy Spirit still given today, yes.
Did God give us denominations/non-denominations, Cessationism or what other hundreds of "ism's" that are out there, no.
Is God and His word the same yesterday, today and forever, yes.

Why do so many want to cut off the power of God in all things and run the church the way they seem fit to please man instead of being pleasing to the Lord. You say you follow and obey the Bible, but yet come against what is clearly written by the Prophets and Apostles. I don't get it.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

It's all about the word of God, not the word of Man's various doctrines. If the Holy Spirit is not present in any church service or administration of the workings of the Church then it truly is not God's true Church.

 

[for_his_glory]

In another words there are no grey areas in the bible also known as secondary

These are escapology
Ways to administer baptism .is it infant ,sprinkling full immersion or in a lake or river or spring ?
Gifts for today or then
Calvinism or arminism

Types of styles of worship

Low church versus high church

In my county the oldest church is a missionary Baptist Church these are older them Lutheranism.
These sound closest to the calvinst but aren't considered that .no worship music or missionary as we know. Yet history shows that tiny subset is older then the reformed movement .

Some feel the need to have strong opinions on the secondary issues that they wouldn't in my church ,you could never be an elder ,teach or have authority over men .yet my church rents to a church that is opposite .

What you might call a division is simply at times people feeling so strong that ie.i can't be under a female pastor these days. I don't agree with it.shoukd I be considered lost because I see the scripture plainly ?

The list of the elder requirements is that he must rule over the house well.

Not even in the various churches that ordain women is the man to follow the woman in a marriage . I know the weak arguments but my point is like my pastor and the church founder whom I know well.he spoke at an old pentacostal church often that I attended and was raised charismatic and sees that issue of female leadership as a minor issue .yet can't agree with it.

When I hear non demontional I cringe because I can go to the biggest claimed of it and find hardcore positions on issues that are secondary .

Calvary chapel under chuck Smith's doesn't ordain women. They don't teach the gifts on the book of Corinthians as the charismatics do.

Truth has now turned to deception of the carnal minds ways of thinking which produces mans interpretations, traditions of law and doctrine. Satan has such a foothold on religions and has side blinded all of us into believing whatever is taught behind the pulpit is truth because after all, they are the Priest, Rabbis, Pastors, etc. etc. and they should know what they are talking about because they are our teachers. Satan is pretty clever and the master of lies and deceit.

1Peter 5:8 be sober, be vigilant, because your adversary the devil is seeking to whom he may devour.
1Peter 5:9 Whom resist steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
1Peter 5:10 but the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, establish, strengthen, settle you.

1Peter 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles, (wisdom) of God, if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth, that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ to whom be praise and dominion forever and ever, Amen.

Revelation 22:18 for I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

God could not have spoken any clearer about what happens to anyone who tries to change his word and teach another gospel other then Christ. We can be sure of what we are being taught by getting into the word for ourselves and allow the Holy Spirit teach us all things as only then will we know how to separate truth from error. The saddest part is that most teachers do not even realize they are preaching a different gospel as they teach through traditions and mans interpretative doctrines because they have become to lazy to dig for truth and want to give you what you want to hear and not what you need to hear. I praise God for the many times he has stepped on my toes and showed me what I needed to see even though it hurt seeing it, but it brought me into all truths, praise his glorious name, Amen.

2Timothy 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Timothy 2:16 but shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Well, how can visions or dreams given by God not be directly from Him? The interpretation of these things might have required the extra step of an interpreter being brought along to interpret, but, even then, what God wanted to communicate through a vision or dream He did not fail to communicate to the one to whom He had given the vision or dream. Neither Nebuchadnezzar, nor Pharaoh were what I would call sensitive to the "voice" of God and yet they got His message(s), loud and clear, despite being delivered to them via dreams and God's interpreter.

Yes, Christ chided his disciples about their hardness of mind and heart but he was often purposefully concealing the meaning of his teachings. Even so, he took pains on occasion to explain various parables to the Twelve, and before he returned to heaven he did as follows:

Luke 24:44-48
44 Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled."
45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,
46 and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day,
47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
48 "You are witnesses of these things.

What I've said, then, continues to hold true concerning God's ability to make Himself well understood. Even the dull Twelve were made to understand, in due time, what it was God intended for them to understand.

Good points here, and a lot to say I could likely never get to. But for starters it's very much true that a dream can indeed be from God and the interpretation be where the break down comes, even with fairly gifted interpreters. It's also true that if He wants a message to in no way be misunderstood He will flat spell it out for you, so that there is absolutely no doubt about the situation whatsoever. But again, it is not simply about the messages in the dreams themselves. He uses their ambiguity to force us to draw closer to Him. I think that was the message being communicated when He told the disciples, "Do you not know even this parable?" The entire message was to say, "They are so far from God that I am deliberately trying to conceal the meanings from them, but I am NOT trying to conceal them from you, so why are you having such a hard time hearing Me? You are not yet close enough to understand and perceive as you should be."

No, I think, in the record of Scripture, God used dreams and His agent of interpretation of them to make it VERY clear that He had sent the dream and to draw out into public view that He had in order, at least in part, to glorify Himself. There's no good scriptural ground that I'm aware of for saying that Pharaoh's dreaming baker, or cup-bearer, or Pharaoh himself had been made more spiritually perceptive or discerning by Joseph's interpretation of their dreams. And what of Nebuchadnezzar, or his son Belshazzar? I don't recall reading in Scripture that they'd been improved in the spiritual discernment and perception department...

We must have missed each other here, because I don't really understand your answer. I meant that He wants those who are His to develop better ears to hear, not the unsaved. They're kinda at the mercy of their circumstances, not being able to hear Him at all.

Yes, God wants us to draw near to Him, but chiefly that we might enjoy all He made us to enjoy in Himself. But as the examples above demonstrate, God does not need a person close at all to Himself in order to communicate with them. Abraham wasn't an especially devout man, pursuing God assiduously and thus prepared to hear from Him. Not at all. Neither was Moses when he encountered the burning bush. Or Pharaoh. Or Balaam. Or Paul. And yet, God communicated directly and unmistakably with each of them. I don't see, then, any solid biblical basis for thinking God wants us near so He can communicate with us. He can communicate with us whatever our distance from Him.

I think you're kinda contradicting His teachings in Mark 4 here. You're also lumping Moses and Paul into the same category with Pharaoh and Balaam, and the former had very good hearing and encountered Him personally, whereas the latter two were extremely hard of hearing spiritually, and both were made examples of because of it...

I don't think you want to use the latter two as examples of the way God wishes to operate, and I think using the former two as examples is placing a HIGH demand on the body of Christ in general. I think He sends visions and dreams to the common believer, whereas He only speaks directly to a select few, so maybe neither group do the discussion much good... but let me move on to your last paragraph.

God often informs them via dreams and visions? Sometimes, perhaps. You've offered one example. God also - and I think far more commonly - uses His word, His wisdom, commands, and spiritual principles given to us in Scripture, to warn us of evil, and show us how to wage spiritual warfare, and teach us how to make good, God-honoring decisions. If we are careful to be well-armed spiritually with the "sword of the Spirit" and the spiritual protection fellowship with God provides, we have most of what is necessary to defend ourselves against the World, the Flesh and the devil.

In any case, I don't know of any place in God's word where the child of God is urged to rely upon dreams and visions as important means for navigating life and defending against evil. The most important thing spiritually - fellowship with God - does not rely in the slightest upon such things.

My response here would be that I think you are seeing this too much through the lens of 21st century Christianity. Look at how many visions and dreams they had. In the space of just the books of the NT, you have numerous references to them. Paul had a vision of Third Heaven, John had a vision of the future that stretches 22 Chapters in the Book of Revelation, Peter had a vision that led to the first preaching of the gospel to Gentiles, Joseph had his dream of taking Mary and the Christ child to Egypt, Paul experienced seeing Christ on the road to Damascus, Paul also had a vision of being told to go to Macedonia and not Asia, Stephen saw a vision of Christ seated at the right hand of God when standing before the Sanhedrin, and Pilate's wife even had a dream that he should not crucify Christ, and it goes on and on. Where are we today? I think the mantra that we should no longer "rely" on such things is masking a different stance, and that is that we should no longer operate in or receive such things, and that is a far different mentality than the early church was walking in.

 

[jasonc]

Truth has now turned to deception of the carnal minds ways of thinking which produces mans interpretations, traditions of law and doctrine. Satan has such a foothold on religions and has side blinded all of us into believing whatever is taught behind the pulpit is truth because after all, they are the Priest, Rabbis, Pastors, etc. etc. and they should know what they are talking about because they are our teachers. Satan is pretty clever and the master of lies and deceit.

1Peter 5:8 be sober, be vigilant, because your adversary the devil is seeking to whom he may devour.
1Peter 5:9 Whom resist steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
1Peter 5:10 but the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, establish, strengthen, settle you.

1Peter 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles, (wisdom) of God, if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth, that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ to whom be praise and dominion forever and ever, Amen.

Revelation 22:18 for I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

God could not have spoken any clearer about what happens to anyone who tries to change his word and teach another gospel other then Christ. We can be sure of what we are being taught by getting into the word for ourselves and allow the Holy Spirit teach us all things as only then will we know how to separate truth from error. The saddest part is that most teachers do not even realize they are preaching a different gospel as they teach through traditions and mans interpretative doctrines because they have become to lazy to dig for truth and want to give you what you want to hear and not what you need to hear. I praise God for the many times he has stepped on my toes and showed me what I needed to see even though it hurt seeing it, but it brought me into all truths, praise his glorious name, Amen.

2Timothy 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Timothy 2:16 but shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

In short anyone that isn't on Perfect doctrine as you .

Amil ,and knows that the papist is the ac .

I guess the early church that used the didache shouldnt have made it .

Read what simple things they said .

Fast before baptism ,both the one doing it and the receiving it.

Don't eat food offered to idols or blood.

Churches shouldn't take stances in secondary issues.i should call my elders heretic for not agreeing with me and vice versa on secondary issuess?

I don't agree with the pettiness but tht fact is some can and do honestly seperate over doctrine that is secondary . I understand why and don't see as the flesh

 

[for_his_glory]

In short anyone that isn't on Perfect doctrine as you .

Only the doctrine of Christ is perfect, but sometimes our understanding can be wrong as I have been wrong many times, but the Holy Spirit always brings me correction through others and for that I appreciate.

 

[jasonc]

Only the doctrine of Christ is perfect, but sometimes our understanding can be wrong as I have been wrong many times, but the Holy Spirit always brings me correction through others and for that I appreciate.

Yet that's the problem


You would strongly disagree that women can't be pastors
Nor deacons

Pre mil is wrong .
Sprinkling baptism is wrong ,yet the didache mentions using water by any means. The sea when calm is the most preferred,then rivers ,lakes ,ponds ,and finally sprinkling.

I don't agree with sprinkling but it's simply not a separation issue for me.

Some teach based upon their bias baptism saves .I disagree but it's not a salvinic issue .

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

This is my main problem with the Cessationist argument, and it seems to me that it is built more upon a doctrinal stance than common sense. Wouldn't they want to know His specific will if they could have it? Wouldn't they want to receive direct counsel on a specific matter they are facing, or prophetic warning about a very specific attack that is coming to their family or their marriage or their church in the near future? My wife told me that her church received just such a warning that was fulfilled a few days ago. They had received both prophecies and dreams that witches were going to be attempting to cast spells on their church because it is growing, and being used of God to reach people for Christ. Well, a few days ago the pastor and his wife decided to drive to the church at a different time of day than normal for something, and when they got there there was a woman who looked like she was into the occult and she was motioning with her hands and speaking what sounded like curses over the building and the congregation. You don't think it would be valuable to know things like that are going to occur so the church can be praying against it in advance? That's just a small example among many I could give, but receiving specific direction from the Spirit of God concerning such things is very important IMO, especially in the spiritual war, which still goes on today just like it did in New and Old Testament times.

Cessationism is denial of the Holy Spirit's power, that God ceased to perform miracles, reveal secrets, answer prayers, deliver messages, cast out evil spirits in supernatural, unexplainable ways, after John the apostle passed away, the canonical bible is God's final word, anything else is attributed to Satan. About two years ago there was this Asbury revival event in a Kentucky university, there was a continuous spontaneous worship session in an auditorium, cessationists immediately denounced it as a publicity stunt from Satan. This is a heresy from the pit of hell, it's guilty of the unforgivable sin, and it doesn't match simple hsitorical facts - the Vulgate bible was completed in the early 5th century, this Latin translation contains multiple apogryphal books; the king James bible of 66 books didn't exist until the reign of king James I after Queen Elizabeth in the early 17th century. The early church was a sect of Judaism known as the Way, this is explicitly recorded in Acts, and the bible they had back then was OT scrolls, any mention of the Scriptures in the NT was specifically referring to the OT. If God had ceased to dole out spiritual gifts in late 1st century, then the bible wouldn't have existed!

 

[Tenchi]

Has God's word changed from the time He gave Jesus what to speak, no.
Has God's full instruction to the administration of His Church being the body of Christ ever change, no
Has God's miracles stopped today as in the examples of Jesus supernaturally preforming them, no.
Is faith the same today as it was in the beginning, yes.
Are the gifts of the Holy Spirit still given today, yes.
Did God give us denominations/non-denominations, Cessationism or what other hundreds of "ism's" that are out there, no.
Is God and His word the same yesterday, today and forever, yes.

I'm not sure what making these Q&A statements is intended to accomplish... We can all make statements of all sorts but making them doesn't make them true.

What do you mean "Has God's word changed from the time He gave Jesus what to speak"? What of all the epistles in the NT that follow the Gospels? They are God's word but they were not spoken by Christ's own mouth. So, then, God's word, by which I mean the NT in this instance, has changed quite considerably in that it's been added to by Luke, Paul, Peter, John, James and Jude.

I think the offices of apostle and prophet are entirely concluded, the complete word of God and the Holy Spirit entirely sufficient to authoritatively guide the Church.

Have God's miracles ceased? No. Every person who is saved is a miracle. But healings and resurrections? Healings, perhaps, occasionally occur, but there are no resurrections, no feeding of many thousands from a child's lunch, no withering plants with a word, no instant calming of sea storms with a word, no walking on water, as Jesus did.

What do you mean by "faith"? Who's faith? Faith in what, exactly?

Are spiritual gifts still a thing? Of course - just not so much of the miraculous sort. Oh, there is still much unintelligible babbling, and charlatans pretending to miraculous healings, and folks laying claim to every sort of dream and vision that will confer upon them notoriety among, and power over, gullible, sensual Christians, but the truly spiritually beneficial, Church-edifying gifts of the Spirit - preaching, teaching, faith, hospitality, service, mercy, exhortation, etc. - are still distributed to believers as the Spirit wills.

Has God ordained the many church denominations that there are? Depends on who you ask. Many higher-order Calvinists would say so. I wouldn't though.

What do you mean by God being "the same" yesterday, today and forever? In respect to what, exactly? Do you mean He is perfectly static in every respect, immobile, never acting or acted upon and so utterly changeless?

Why do so many want to cut off the power of God in all things and run the church the way they seem fit to please man instead of being pleasing to the Lord.

I don't know. For myself, I'm trying to be as biblical as I can be, living in submission to God throughout each day, enjoying Him with increasing fullness, and becoming more and more a vessel fit for His use. How about you?

It's all about the word of God, not the word of Man's various doctrines.

This is what is called a false dichotomy.

 

[Follower Of Christ]

Has God's word changed from the time He gave Jesus what to speak, no.
Has God's full instruction to the administration of His Church being the body of Christ ever change, no
Has God's miracles stopped today as in the examples of Jesus supernaturally preforming them, no.
Is faith the same today as it was in the beginning, yes.
Are the gifts of the Holy Spirit still given today, yes.
Did God give us denominations/non-denominations, Cessationism or what other hundreds of "ism's" that are out there, no.
Is God and His word the same yesterday, today and forever, yes.

Why do so many want to cut off the power of God in all things and run the church the way they seem fit to please man instead of being pleasing to the Lord. You say you follow and obey the Bible, but yet come against what is clearly written by the Prophets and Apostles. I don't get it.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

It's all about the word of God, not the word of Man's various doctrines. If the Holy Spirit is not present in any church service or administration of the workings of the Church then it truly is not God's true Church.

I would spare my energies for_his_glory for other debates and finishing your own race. Some understand what 2 Thessalonians 2:7 is all about some don't. 2 Thessalonians 2:7 describes one of the greatest miracles in existence. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work and it's only the Holy Spirit in time and space that restrains it until he is out of the way. For Satan starts as a little serpent in the Garden of Eden and has truly become a sight to behold like a big red dragon by the times of the tribulation.

Many who are last will be first and many who are first will be last - words spoken from Christ himself. The greatest miracle is the faith we have in this century of incessant materialism and confusion. As Christ spoke to Thomas: "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

The bride is getting ready to marry Christ and rule with him forever! What a miracle to behold enforced by the presence of the Holy Spirit in time and space including now. What amazing potential we all have while we are looking forward into the future with love hope and faith to be God's elect in millennium and onwards. What amazing downfall for those who use this precious time validating what's already behind us which is sin and death.

 

[Follower Of Christ]

Isaiah 30:29 "You shall have a song as in the night when a holy feast is kept, and gladness of heart as when one sets out to the sound of the flute to go to the mountain of the Lord, to the Rock of Israel."

The rest is cold dialectics and belongs to Satan.