Signs of the Second-Coming

[john darling]

We certainly have more Homosexuals. As in the days of Sodom and Gomorrah? Maybe not but much more than there were just a few years ago.

From what I can see Jesus didn't say anything about homosexuality regarding Sodom. I'm sure God did have a problem with that particular sin and that the people of Sodom were guilty of it, but it's interesting that Jesus also mentioned the days of Noah in the same context. He could see a deeper problem than homosexuality. Here's what he said;

LK 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

LK 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

LK 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

LK 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

Eating, drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, building, planting, buying and selling; all ordinary, average, everyday activities. But here they are, listed as the problems for which the people of Noah and Lot's day were were destroyed. I believe the lesson is that these people were too concerend about the cares of the world to care about what God wanted and it will be like that in the end time, too.

It's particularly interesting that he mentions "buying and selling" and "eating and drinking" in the list, since the significance of the Mark of the Beast is described as a means of controlling buying/ selling ( thus controlling a world dependent on buying/selling (Revelation 13:16-17)) and Jesus's answer to the Mark was to say we should not allow a worry for what we will eat/drink stop us from seeking God's kingdom first, (as opposed to money and the things money can buy (Matthew 6:24-34)).

The theme is repeated in the parable of the sower. The seed which fell among the thorns was described as "He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful" (Matthew 13:22).

In fact, the theme of buying/selling, materialism and the cares of this world as a connected pattern is repeated all throughout the NT.

A man who supposedly loved God but would not let go of his possessions (Luke 18:22-23).

A man who had fine food and clothing but no love (Luke 16:19)

A man who built more and more for himself (Luke 12:18-20)

Wedding invitees who just had too much else happening to go when God called (Luke 14:18-20)

Looking around me, I see all of these things happening in abundance.

 

[JLB]

Eating, drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, building, planting, buying and selling; all ordinary, average, everyday activities. But here they are, listed as the problems for which the people of Noah and Lot's day were were destroyed.l

You have got to be kidding?

You think that the everyday affairs of life was the reason these groups were destroyed? Honestly?

These examples were given of people who went about there lives unaware of the impending judgement of God that was to come.

Both the inhabitants of the earth in the days of Noah and Lot were guilty of extreme sexual immorality that brought on the judgement and destruction from God.

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; 2 Peter 2:4-6

So also shall it be before the coming of the Lord, they will say peace and safety then SUDDEN DESTRUCTION will come upon them.


JLB

 

[john darling]

You think that the everyday affairs of life was the reason these groups were destroyed? Honestly?

These examples were given of people who went about there lives unaware of the impending judgement of God that was to come.

Both the inhabitants of the earth in the days of Noah and Lot were guilty of extreme sexual immorality that brought on the judgement and destruction from God.

*shrugs* Just looking at what the scripture says and supporting it with heaps of other examples. Do you have any scriptural support for your counter argument? 2

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Are there really tangible signs of the Second-Coming of Christ. I doubt if we can mention any event that has not already taken place in the OT. Perhaps one example would be the 666 Technology.

Oh, I thought you said "Sign up for the 2nd Coming".
I didn't want to miss that!

 

[JLB]

*shrugs* Just looking at what the scripture says and supporting it with heaps of other examples. Do you have any scriptural support for your counter argument? 2

Did you read the scripture I posted?

Are you asking me to post scriptures that show the inhabitants of Sodom were engaged in sexual immorality?

JLB

 

[JLB]

*shrugs* Just looking at what the scripture says and supporting it with heaps of other examples. Do you have any scriptural support for your counter argument? 2

The Lord comes down, with two angels, to visit Abraham, and to investigate whether the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is true.

And the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, 21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”
Genesis 18:20-22

The angels arrive in Sodom to inquire -

Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground. 2 And he said, “Here now, my lords, please turn in to your servant’s house and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you may rise early and go on your way.”

And they said, “No, but we will spend the night in the open square.”

3 But he insisted strongly; so they turned in to him and entered his house. Then he made them a feast, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate.

4 Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. 5 And they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally.”

6 So Lot went out to them through the doorway, shut the door behind him, 7 and said, “Please, my brethren, do not do so wickedly! 8 See now, I have two daughters who have not known a man; please, let me bring them out to you, and you may do to them as you wish; only do nothing to these men, since this is the reason they have come under the shadow of my roof.”

9 And they said, “Stand back!” Then they said, “This one came in to stay here, and he keeps acting as a judge; now we will deal worse with you than with them.” So they pressed hard against the man Lot, and came near to break down the door. 10 But the men reached out their hands and pulled Lot into the house with them, and shut the door. 11 And they struck the men who were at the doorway of the house with blindness, both small and great, so that they became weary trying to find the door.

12 Then the men said to Lot, “Have you anyone else here? Son-in-law, your sons, your daughters, and whomever you have in the city—take them out of this place! 13 For we will destroy this place, because the outcry against them has grown great before the face of the Lord, and the Lord has sent us to destroy it.” Genesis 19:1-13


JLB

 

[john darling]

Did you read the scripture I posted?

Oops, sorry JLB. I did miss the scripture you posted!

Are you asking me to post scriptures that show the inhabitants of Sodom were engaged in sexual immorality?

And yeah, the background you posted was helpful, so thanks for posting that, too.

However, what I see missing in your post is an explanation for how the various teachings reconcile. As I said in my original post, Jesus also mentions Noah's day, as well (which is not specifically known for homosexuality but rather that their thoughts were continually on evil (Gen 6:5). In amongst all the problems Jesus listed there was no mention of homosexuality. It's not that the sin of homosexuality was inconsequential to Jesus but, like with the pharisees and the woman caught in adultry Jesus could see a deeper problem than sexual sin. The woman caught in adultry was wrong, but the hypocrisy of the pharisees was the worse sin in Jesus eyes and therefore the sin which needed the attention (John 8:11).

Look again at Jesus' list and the supporting scriptures I posted. See how much revolves around greed and materialism. St Paul said, "the love of money is the root of all evil" (1 Tim 6:10). I'm suggesting that Jesus did not ignore the problem of sexual sin, but rather that he went deeper, to the root cause of the problems. While the sexual sin of Sodom was probably intense, it was only a symtom, not the cause.

Now look again at my explanation. It's not that planting and building are wrong, but that the people were doing so without care for what God wanted. That is the real sin even behind homosexuality or any other sin; people don't care what God wants. They only care what they personally want. In such circumstances ANY behavior or activity becomes a sin.

The way this expresses itself in practical terms for Christianity goes something like this; Jesus says, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel" and people respond, "I don't feel led to do that. I have a family, home, business etc and besides, I pay tithes to my church so that they can sponsor others to go do the preaching on my behalf" etc.

We can look around at the world today and see A LOT of sexual sin happening, even besides homosexuality. One is not less offensive than the other. But there are many other sins happening as well. Aside from adultery Jesus didn't say anything about homosexuality or sexual sin, but he did say heaps about greed and hypocrisy. He said a lot about people who ignore God for the sake of their own selfish desires (see my previous scripture references) including Christians (Luke 6:46).

When I look around at the world today I see a lot of that happening.

 

[smaller]

Rev 4:
4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

The Opening Salvo of Revelation is quite entirely WONDERFUL, and not DIRE for those who are Christ's nor for any creature which is upon the earth.


Rev. 5:
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

THIS, the ABOVE, is "how" it begins.

 

[smaller]

Unleashing the "FLOOD WATERS of God in Christ"

The prophet Isaiah, saw and told us of the WATERS OF NOAH, what is, for all intents, the SECOND FLOOD, here, to which Jesus spoke of:

THIS is how "the end" will come:

Isaiah 54:
5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
6 For the Lord hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.
7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the Lord thy Redeemer.
9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.


10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee.
11 O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.
12 And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones.
13 And all thy children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children.
14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.

 

[smaller]

John 13:35
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Hebrews 8:11
And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

 

[JLB]

As I said in my original post, Jesus also mentions Noah's day, as well (which is not specifically known for homosexuality but rather that their thoughts were continually on evil (Gen 6:5). In amongst all the problems Jesus listed there was no mention of homosexuality. It's not that the sin of homosexuality was inconsequential to Jesus but, like with the pharisees and the woman caught in adultry Jesus could see a deeper problem than sexual sin. The woman caught in adultry was wrong, but the hypocrisy of the pharisees was the worse sin in Jesus eyes and therefore the sin which needed the attention (John 8:11).

Noah's Day, like Sodom and Gomorrah, were destroyed over sexual immorality.

Let's take a close look at the scripture I posted.

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, 2 Peter 2:4-5

Do you know what "sin" these angels committed in the days of Noah, that caused them to be cast into hell?


JLB

 

[smaller]

Noah's Day, like Sodom and Gomorrah, were destroyed over sexual immorality.

Let's take a close look at the scripture I posted.

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, 2 Peter 2:4-5

Do you know what "sin" these angels committed in the days of Noah, that caused them to be cast into hell?

JLB

Proverbs 16:4
The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

 

[JLB]

Proverbs 16:4
The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Could you answer my question?

Do you know what "sin" these angels committed in the days of Noah, that caused them to be cast into hell?

However, what I see missing in your post is an explanation for how the various teachings reconcile. As I said in my original post, Jesus also mentions Noah's day, as well (which is not specifically known for homosexuality but rather that their thoughts were continually on evil (Gen 6:5). In amongst all the problems Jesus listed there was no mention of homosexuality.

The sin that caused the world to be flooded in the days of Noah was ?


JLB

 

[turnorburn]

Are there really tangible signs of the Second-Coming of Christ. I doubt if we can mention any event that has not already taken place in the OT. Perhaps one example would be the 666 Technology.

The extinction event at Fukushima would be a sign "the sea is dying" then there's this..

Below is a list of worldwide mass animal deaths for 2015, with pages also for mass die offs from the previous 4 years. There are animals dying all over the world today in huge numbers, due to the polluted state of the sea and air. Millions of Fish and massive numbers of whales and dolphins are washing ashore dead. Birds are falling dead out of the sky, and millions of poultry are dying from avian flu. The animals of the land like cattle are also dying in large numbers from disease. Although animals and fish have been dying all throughout history, we have not seen the massive consistant numbers that we are seeing today. Please remember! This is just one of the MANY signs of the last days.

http://www.end-times-prophecy.org/animal-deaths-birds-fish-end-times.html

tob

 

[jasonc]

cherynobyl was far worse then that fukishama reactor meltdown. cherynobyl sent up a cloud of radioactive plume that covered most of Europe and hit the us an yet how many got sick? birds dropping from the sky?

 

[john darling]

Noah's Day, like Sodom and Gomorrah, were destroyed over sexual immorality.

According to what Jesus said, that's not the reason. That's not even what the Genesis account says (at least about Noah's day). Based on the context, I suspect the answer to your question, (i.e. what sin did the angels commit) will probably have something to do with sexual sin, but I think even if you give such an answer you will still be missing the bigger picture. In your first response to me you said;

These examples were given of people who went about there lives unaware of the impending judgement of God that was to come.

I could almost agree with you here, but were they really unaware? No one in Sodom was warned (Gen 18:23-33)? Or did they just refuse to listen? Didn't Noah try to warn the people? Peter refers to him as a "preacher of righteousness". No, they were not unaware. They chose not to listen to God. They chose thier own selfish desires instead of listening to him. It will be the same in the end, people bothered about all the various cares of life, too busy to care about what God wants.

While homosexuality could certainly be listed among their list of sins it would be a mistake to say the teaching is about that one particular sin. It conveniently leaves the door open for people to go on chasing after their own various desires so long as they can claim they are not homosexual.

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, 2 Peter 2:4-5

Your 2 Peter 2 verses don't mention homosexuality, either. Sure, Peter references angels, though the context is not sexual sin, but that even angels, as supposedly mighty as they seem to be to us, cannot escape God's judgment; how much more so should we be prepared to be judged. It's the same with the reference to Noah's day; nothing about homosexuality. The emphasis is on the fact that God was willing to destroy the entire world as an expression of his judgment. The lesson being communicated isn't about homosexuality, but rather that we should take judgment as seriously as God takes sin. It's the same with verses 6-8 about Lot. The emphasis is on the salvation of the just verses the destruction of the wicked, not on any particular sin. God did not spare angels. God did not spare Noah's day. God did not spare Sodom. Why should we live as though we will escape judgment? That's the lesson from 2 Peter 2 1-8.

Jesus was dealing with attitudes, that anything, even normal, average, everyday activities can be sinful if they distract us away from God. Instead, people want to make it about some specific sin like homosexuality, thus missing the bigger picture, as though homosexuality is somehow worse than building and planting against God's will.

 

[smaller]

Could you answer my question?

Do you know what "sin" these angels committed in the days of Noah, that caused them to be cast into hell?

The sin that caused the world to be flooded in the days of Noah was ?
JLB

Romans 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Take yer pick of 'em.

 

[JLB]

Sure, Peter references angels, though the context is not sexual sin,

What do you see as their sin, that got them cast down to hell?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Romans 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Take yer pick of 'em.

The angels that sinned during the days of Noah, and were cast down to hell... broke the law of Moses?

The scripture you quoted was a reference to the law of Moses.

The days of Noah were quite some time before Moses was born.

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah... 2 Peter 2:4-5


6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Jude 6-7


For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 1 Peter 3:18-20


These three scriptures reference the same angels that were disobedient during the days of Noah.


JLB

 

[john darling]

Hi JLB,

I'm still wondering where the contention is. If your argument is that the angels were guilty of sexual fornication, I'm not sure that the scriptures really do show their sin as being sexual in nature, but even that wanders away from the original point I was making about Jesus' words.

Whatever the activity may be, if it's contrary to God's will then it becomes sin. I think Jesus knew the reputation of Sodom. He understood the issues of sexual immorality they were guilty of. But it wasn't sexual immorality which he listed in the reasons for why they were destroyed. You've not addressed that point other than to say they were unaware but even if they were unaware, that doesn't change the fact that Jesus gave these issues as reasons for why they were destroyed.

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah... 2 Peter 2:4-5

I earlier gave an interpretation for these verses from Peter which showed there was a context I felt you were missing; that although angels and Noah were mentioned, the context was not about angels or the days of Noah, but rather about pride and judgment. If God did not spare the angels or the entire world in which Noah lived, we should not believe we are somehow exempt from judgment. What is so ironic about your interpretation is that an exemption from judgment is exactly happens when you change Jesus' words by claiming he was talking about a specific sexual sin (which he did not mention) instead of the every-day, ordinary activites which he actually did mention, particularly if you yourself are not guilty of that very specific sin.

In other words, if the issue is homosexuality and we are not homosexual, then all those warnings about planting and building, buying and selling etc become pointless for us and we are free to go on running after the cares of this world with a supposedly clean conscience. See Luke 14:18-20 for a cross reference which says much the same thing.

But what would happen if we did take Jesus at his word? What if all those things he mentioned (buying, selling, planting, building, marrying, giving in marriage etc) really do represent a genuine problem? Wouldn't that force us to examine all those various areas of our lives to find out if the way we behave really is consistent with what God wants us to do...even those very ordinary, mundane activites which God couldn't possibly have any problem with simply because they are so ordinary?

6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Jude 6-7

What I see here is that the topic is not sexual immorality (though sexual immorality is referenced in one of the examples). The topic is disobedience and rebellion. Jude references the angels as an example and he references Sodom and Gomorrah. The conntection between the two is not sexual immorality. The connection is their rebellion. The angels "left their own abode" and the people of Sodom gave themselves over to sexual immorality. While I can see how you could make a link of a sexual nature between the two (which I think is a misunderstanding of what the verses actually say), I don't think Jude was making the same link. They are two examples of disobedience which happen to be used in the same sentence. Verses 5 and 8 show the context into which the example of angels and Sodom fit.