Sinning Ignorantly

[Deborah13]

Luke repeats this thought in Heb 10:36-39 (NIV), that believers CAN shrink back.

That is what it says.

In this case, it's not a falling away as we would think of it. That word 'shrink' has the description of slinking away, withdrawing oneself, cowering (being cowardly) G5288.

 

[Deborah13]

The scripture says, Judas was baptizes. Judas baptizes others., Judas was anointed. Judas was empowered. Judas cast out Devils. Judas healed the sick. Judas preached the gospel. Was He mature or on milk?

I'm not sure Judas was ever saved.
But this description sounds like those who cry 'Lord, Lord, have we not cast out demons, in your name....and Jesus says, I Never knew you."

 

[iLOVE]

When did Satan enter Judas? And why did he enter Judas?

 

[iLOVE]

I'm not sure Judas was ever saved.
But this description sounds like those who cry 'Lord, Lord, have we not cast out demons, in your name....and Jesus says, I Never knew you."

Why did Jesus make that statement?

 

[Deborah13]

Why did Jesus make that statement?

Because they were never saved.

 

[Stan1953]

Hi Stan, nice to hear from you.
I understand what Hebrews 6:4-6 says, but my point was that people misunderstand it.
I thought my above explanation clarifies that but I guess it doesn't.
Are you sure you have read Hebrews 10:36-39 all the way through?
It finishes by saying, "But we do not belong to those that shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved".
Yes, there is 2 ways to read this verse but I read it as this: If they do not belong to us, then they are not Christians.
Show me a verse that says they were once saved but they lost their salvation.
It doesn't exist.

Thanks, nice to be here.
Yes I have read it hundreds of times and IMO Luke is pointing out that there are people that do shrink back, but he and his followers are not of those kind. I see no reason for warnings about not shrinking back if apostasy cannot be a real danger.
OK, here's a simple listing of the things we as Children of God Can Do:
1. Fall from grace - Gal. 5:1-4,13
2. Be led away with error - 2 Pet. 3:17
3. Err from the truth - James 5:19-20
4. Weak brother may perish - 1 Cor. 8:11
5. Fall into condemnation - James 5:12
6. Be moved away from the hope - Col. 1:21-23
7. Deny the Lord who bought them - 2 Pet. 2:1
8. Depart from the living God - Heb. 3:12
9. Can be a castaway - 1 Cor. 9:27
10. Can become accursed children - 2 Pet. 2:14

The fact the Bible exhorts to faithfulness proves one can be lost/become apostate.
1.be steadfast and immovable: 1 Cor 15:58
2.If these qualities are yours...2 Peter 1:5-11
3.we will reap if we do not grow weary: Gal 6:9
4.be faithful until death and I will give crown of life: Rev 2:10
5.practice these things and God will be with you: Phil 4:9

 

[Deborah13]

IMO Luke is pointing out

Why do you attribute Hebrews to Luke? It's my understanding that Luke was a gentile. Most attribute it to Paul.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Thanks, nice to be here.
Yes I have read it hundreds of times and IMO Luke is pointing out that there are people that do shrink back, but he and his followers are not of those kind. I see no reason for warnings about not shrinking back if apostasy cannot be a real danger.
OK, here's a simple listing of the things we as Children of God Can Do:
1. Fall from grace - Gal. 5:1-4,13
2. Be led away with error - 2 Pet. 3:17
3. Err from the truth - James 5:19-20
4. Weak brother may perish - 1 Cor. 8:11
5. Fall into condemnation - James 5:12
6. Be moved away from the hope - Col. 1:21-23
7. Deny the Lord who bought them - 2 Pet. 2:1
8. Depart from the living God - Heb. 3:12
9. Can be a castaway - 1 Cor. 9:27
10. Can become accursed children - 2 Pet. 2:14

The fact the Bible exhorts to faithfulness proves one can be lost/become apostate.
1.be steadfast and immovable: 1 Cor 15:58
2.If these qualities are yours...2 Peter 1:5-11
3.we will reap if we do not grow weary: Gal 6:9
4.be faithful until death and I will give crown of life: Rev 2:10
5.practice these things and God will be with you: Phil 4:9

So what you are saying is that if I'm unable to live up to these standards, then I'm going to hell.
But of course, you are able to live up to these standards, right?
It's good to know that someone can get to heaven on their own.

 

[Eugene]

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

 

[Stan1953]

So what you are saying is that if I'm unable to live up to these standards, then I'm going to hell.
But of course, you are able to live up to these standards, right?
It's good to know that someone can get to heaven on their own.

Uh no, that is NOT what I said, and I have no idea what standards you are referring to?

That is what it says.

In this case, it's not a falling away as we would think of it. That word 'shrink' has the description of slinking away, withdrawing oneself, cowering (being cowardly) G5288.

Which is what apostasy is.

 

[Stan1953]

Why do you attribute Hebrews to Luke? It's my understanding that Luke was a gentile. Most attribute it to Paul.

Well he did write the gospel bearing his name, AND Acts, so I'm not sure his ethnicity has a bearing on anything.
MOST do not attribute it to Paul these days. The following link should prove to be helpful.
http://www.covenantoflove.net/book-reviews/lukan-authorship-of-hebrews-in-review/

 

[Eugene]

Well he did write the gospel bearing his name, AND Acts, so I'm not sure his ethnicity has a bearing on anything.
MOST do not attribute it to Paul these days. The following link should prove to be helpful.
http://www.covenantoflove.net/book-reviews/lukan-authorship-of-hebrews-in-review/

Dear Brother StanJ, I personally oppose the thought that Luke authored the book of Hebrews for the following reasons. Thanks.

David L. Allen - "The Epistle to the Hebrews was written by Luke in c. A.D. 67 . . ."

Eugene - Paul authored fourteen books of the New Testament which are considered "His gospel," though he didn't personally write all of them.

Paul possibly experiencing problems with his eyes, Luke may well have been his amanuensis, or took dictation for Paul because Paul wrote the following in Gal 6:11, Ye see how LARGE (denoting geometrical magnitude as distinguished from arithmetical - Strongs) a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand.

Many don't attribute the "Epistle of Hebrews" to the Apostle Paul, but 2 Thessalonians 3:17-18 says, "The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write. (18) The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen."

This is the way Paul signed off in his letters to these different churches, and Hebrews 13:25 closes with "Grace be with you all. Amen." To me, this indicates Paul authored Hebrews.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Uh no, that is NOT what I said, and I have no idea what standards you are referring to?

Hi Stan, Let me explain.
I asked you in post #18 to show me verses that say we can lose our salvation.
You responded by using verses in post #26.
I grouped all these things together and called them a standard (a level of attainment).
Now if you could reread what I said in post #28, I would hope you can understand where I am coming from.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Well he did write the gospel bearing his name, AND Acts, so I'm not sure his ethnicity has a bearing on anything.
MOST do not attribute it to Paul these days. The following link should prove to be helpful.
http://www.covenantoflove.net/book-reviews/lukan-authorship-of-hebrews-in-review/

Generally speaking, I have learned on this forum that when someone makes a claim that does not seem to be backed up in the Bible, using another person's blog on the subject doesn't carry much weight.

 

[Deborah13]

Well he did write the gospel bearing his name, AND Acts, so I'm not sure his ethnicity has a bearing on anything.
MOST do not attribute it to Paul these days. The following link should prove to be helpful.
http://www.covenantoflove.net/book-reviews/lukan-authorship-of-hebrews-in-review/

"Allen’s proposal is this: Luke was a born Jew who lived and trained in the Diaspora,"
http://www.covenantoflove.net/book-reviews/lukan-authorship-of-hebrews-in-review/

I'm quoting from the NIV because I believe that is the translation you said you use and quoted from previously.
http://biblehub.com/niv/colossians/4.htm

10My fellow prisoner Aristarchus sends you his greetings, as does Mark, the cousin of Barnabas. (You have received instructions about him; if he comes to you, welcome him.) 11Jesus, who is called Justus, also sends greetings. These are the only Jewsc among my co-workers for the kingdom of God, and they have proved a comfort to me. 12Epaphras, who is one of you and a servant of Christ Jesus, sends greetings. He is always wrestling in prayer for you, that you may stand firm in all the will of God, mature and fully assured. 13I vouch for him that he is working hard for you and for those at Laodicea and Hierapolis. 14Our dear friend Luke, the doctor, and Demas send greetings. 15Give my greetings to the brothers and sisters at Laodicea, and to Nympha and the church in her house.

So looking at the Greek for that word translated as 'friend' in the NIV is #G27, and translated as 'beloved' in the NASV, YLT and KJV.
When NIV says the "only Jews" the other three say 'of the circumcision', so in all fairness these could be ethnic Jews or proselytes that had converted to Judaism.

imo, this scripture clearly separates Luke from those 'of the circumcision.'

The author's whole theory begins with Luke being a Jew and that he was trained in the temple rights and laws.
imo, which I feel is clear from scripture, no Jew was going to listen to a gentile about Torah, prophecies, and to admonish them about returning to the temple sacrifices.
I would also point out the there are times when Paul is speaking about an ethnic Jew, he refers to him as his 'kinsman'.

 

[Brother Mike]

I'm not sure Judas was ever saved.
But this description sounds like those who cry 'Lord, Lord, have we not cast out demons, in your name....and Jesus says, I Never knew you."

Saved how if he was? The Jesus on the cross thing was sort of important.

Generally speaking, I have learned on this forum that when someone makes a claim that does not seem to be backed up in the Bible, using another person's blog on the subject doesn't carry much weight.

I have to agree Rollo. I certainly learn from other Believers. I don't need to quote someone elses work though If I don't have a revelation of what their saying, and I certainly have enough revelation to express myself, else I stay out of it. What someone else wrote carries ZERO weight with me, I want to know what YOU believe, not someone else. Otherwise we would just have the blogger join the forums and talk with them instead and Ignore you.

You are misunderstanding Hebrews 6:4-6.
If you read Hebrews 5:11 through Hebrews 6:3, you'll see the writer is talking about immature Christians who still take milk, not solid food.
The writer continues and tells them it's time to grow up, for the mature Christian will not fall away, it is the mature Christian who has been enlightened.
It is impossible for them to fall away, only the immature Christian who has never grown in their faith can fall away.

Not a fan of one just losing their salvation. However a baby Christian and Mature Christian are both Christians.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
(Heb 10:26-29)

Read over this Again Rollo.
If we Sin Willfully. After we know the truth. There is no more sacrifice for sin....................

Going back to Judaism because of the persecution was a issue in Hebrews. Once you know the truth, and go back to serving another god, then your no longer covered. There is no other god that can help.

It does not say a person can't repent, just says that in this state, there is no more sacrifices for sin, for that person.

Here is why.

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
(1Jn 2:1)

After knowing the truth, and for whatever reason going back to Allah, bubba, Hooda or whoever. There is nothing there that covers you anymore.

If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
(1Jn 5:16)

John said there is "A" sin unto death. John Goes on to warn.

Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
(1Jn 5:21)

Now you might say a real Believer would never do such a thing. We would have to be in their shoes, I have never stood by and watched my children tortured either, crying for me to help and I can do nothing, but confess Allah is my God. It's easy to sit back and say things, it's another experiencing what others have.

Be blessed.

 

[Deborah13]

Saved how if he was? The Jesus on the cross thing was sort of important.

Don't you believe that those before the cross were saved by grace, through faith, like Abraham and David, etc.? That's a rhetorical question, I know that you do. So what are you asking me?

What someone else wrote carries ZERO weight with me, I want to know what YOU believe, not someone else.

I do quote from commentaries at times for two reasons.
One because I believe what the commentator wrote. I could write it myself, they usually are better at it, and it would be too close to plagiarism for my comfort when having just read their words.
Two is because of the audience in the forum. I think some men will take that Godly man's words more seriously than mine and that's OK, too.

 

[Brother Mike]

Don't you believe that those before the cross were saved by grace, through faith, like Abraham and David, etc.? That's a rhetorical question, I know that you do. So what are you asking me?

Then they would have all had to have kept the law perfectly. Even Abraham waited for Jesus, by which He preached to the spirits in prison.

Joh_8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Jesus seemed to have personally known Abraham.

However, for arguments sake, I am sure if the 12 loaded up in a plane to preach in Egypt and it crashed, killing all of them. I know it would have worked out for them just fine, someway.

Two is because of the audience in the forum. I think some men will take that Godly man's words more seriously than mine and that's OK, too.

Well, if someone does not recognize God on you, or the Wisdom of God in you, then what makes you think they will hear someone else? God uses talking Donkey's, are you not better than a Donkey? Are you less godly than then the person your quoting?

For time's sake I will refer someone to a link, as explaining 3 hours of video on a forum is a daunting task. Never to make a point though.
As my mom use to tell me......... To each his own.

Be blessed.

 

[Stan1953]

Dear Brother StanJ, I personally oppose the thought that Luke authored the book of Hebrews for the following reasons. Thanks.

David L. Allen - "The Epistle to the Hebrews was written by Luke in c. A.D. 67 . . ."

Eugene - Paul authored fourteen books of the New Testament which are considered "His gospel," though he didn't personally write all of them.

Paul possibly experiencing problems with his eyes, Luke may well have been his amanuensis, or took dictation for Paul because Paul wrote the following in Gal 6:11, Ye see how LARGE (denoting geometrical magnitude as distinguished from arithmetical - Strongs) a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand.

Many don't attribute the "Epistle of Hebrews" to the Apostle Paul, but 2 Thessalonians 3:17-18 says, "The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write. (18) The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen."

This is the way Paul signed off in his letters to these different churches, and Hebrews 13:25 closes with "Grace be with you all. Amen." To me, this indicates Paul authored Hebrews.

Hi Eugene,
As the OP topic is not who authored Hebrews and I only answered what I was asked, I won't take this off topic anymore. From my studies, Luke is the most obvious and credible. Paul is discounted more and more every day. If you haven't read the book I suggest you do so, as it has MANY good points. FYI Paul did indeed identify himself in his letters, which the author of Hebrews does NOT.

 

[childeye]

I was born stepping on peoples toes.