[_ Old Earth _] So how's the climate going?

[Jacks Bratt]

That's no longer debatable. We know that the increase in carbon dioxide in the atmosphere has caused temperatures to rise. And we know why.



Stop pretending I told you that. Notice that in Iowa, for instance, the cost of electricity is lower than in most states, because wind generators now produce over 25% of the state's electricity.



We've been altering climate regionally for thousands of years. We finally got to the point where we can do it globally.



Turns out we can raise it. But "control" is something else.



Everything helps. And it matters.



He made us stewards of this planet. And He is not obligated to save us from our behavior. Wealthy and powerful men have tried for a long time to hide this from you. Because they can make more money by hiding it. But it's gone past the point where that is possible.

Reality isn't required to fit your needs.

You will never convince me of this. I believe it is up there with the energy crisis of the 70's, lemmings jumping off cliffs and that JFK was killed by a single shooter.....

Time will show that it is another global hoax of the people that pull the strings and keep getting richer and richer....

 

[Barbarian]

You will never convince me of this.

Oh, I know. I'm not trying to convince you. Our conversation is of most value to people who are reading it, and evaluating your arguments and mine.

That's what I'm here for. I realize that there are no arguments or facts that would change your mind on this.

 

[Pizza]

An open post to whom it may concern:

When it comes to any subject within science in general, I am curious. I don't want to be wrong or late to any party and want to understand what is going on - I want to know the truth, even if it means we all must de-industrialize and go back to more of an 1880's kind of life.

But, as I read and read and read, unlike my questions I ask about Apollo, or about physics in general, or about history - when it comes to AGW it is like asking what Muslims really believe. Does Islam really teach 'death to infidels'? Seems to depend on who you ask. Just like AGW. Is AGW really substantiated? Well, you can't observe it, you must trust what the two sides say. And there are politically motivated extremists on BOTH sides of AGW.

I remain absolutely unconvinced. But I know this: There is a significant connection between belief in AGW and the political ideology held by the believer. This takes me back to my foundation statement of how I view the human race: Your political ideology colors your thinking and judgement more than any other factor. And this applies to BOTH sides of this argument, not just the liberal side, IMO.

AGW may be real, but given the hysteria of the left (and not just AlGore) I strongly perceive a political agenda here. A political agenda that is the foundation and basis for AGW to begin with.

At age 56, I look back, as my dad did when I was 15, on a life of presented crisis after crisis. Dad was right, there is ALWAYS something that "they" are promising to protect me from. All I need do is follow in lockstep with the "experts and leaders", pay the fees and taxes that fund their saving efforts, follow their rules and alter my life in just such the ways they instruct me to - and they will get me thru safely.


Forget it. If you cannot avoid making statements like "it's so complicated, I can't explain it, you wont' understand..." you make it all sound like the secret knowledge found in many religions. If you must talk down to me, (and referring to me as a "denier" is doing just that), then I must disregard what you are saying. And I do.

 

[Barbarian]

Forget it. If you cannot avoid making statements like "it's so complicated, I can't explain it, you wont' understand..." you make it all sound like the secret knowledge found in many religions. If you must talk down to me, (and referring to me as a "denier" is doing just that), then I must disregard what you are saying. And I do.

If you're skeptical, how are you a denier? Deniers are those who simply refuse to accept the evidence. The usual key to a denier, is that there will be a political statement involved. And yes, there are "true believers" who are sure we are all doomed, but don't even know what the evidence is for warming.

I would, of course, be willing to talk about the details, if anyone cares to do that. But the evidence for warming is often quite easy to understand. For example, the surprisingly strong effect of carbon dioxide can be better understood if one realizes that it absorbs infrared at wavelengths other common greenhouse gases do not.

"How is it that Arctic ice is melting, if the seas aren't rising very fast?" can be simply understood, if one realizes that an ice cube will raise the level of water in a glass exactly the same before and after it melts.

And so on.

 

[Jacks Bratt]

Here is the deal, for me. No matter what is causing it, nature or man, What are we going to do to stop it?

How is taxing me more going to stop this proposed endless, exponential rise in the earths temp? What are you going to do with the billions of dollars you take from us.
Ontario produces way more electricity than we use. Last year we cut back and the price went up because "you didn't use enough".
What other commodity, on this planet, gets more expensive when you have more supply?
Are we all going to drive electric cars? Not a chance, the auto industry cannot supply that many vehicles of that type and guys like me, the overwhelming majority, cannot afford one of those vehicles.
How are they going to pay for all the charging stations around the province when they cannot even afford to fix the roads we drive on?
Solar panels last about 10 years and their electricity costs about 30 cents US per KWh. I cannot afford to run my house on electricity at this rate. Very few people can. I am struggling at 12 to 18 cents.
Solar is not as "green" as everyone thinks either. Most estimates of life-cycle emissions for photovoltaic systems are between 0.07 and 0.18 pounds of carbon dioxide equivalent per kilowatt-hour. http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_energy/...nmental-impacts-solar-power.html#.WFF-R5dv-VA


So.........what are they going to do? What is another chunk of the 1/2 of my yearly salary that they don't take in taxes, going to do to help save this planet from this devastation. Cause, certainly, it is out of God's hands........

 

[jasonc]

Here is the deal, for me. No matter what is causing it, nature or man, What are we going to do to stop it?

How is taxing me more going to stop this proposed endless, exponential rise in the earths temp? What are you going to do with the billions of dollars you take from us.
Ontario produces way more electricity than we use. Last year we cut back and the price went up because "you didn't use enough".
What other commodity, on this planet, gets more expensive when you have more supply?
Are we all going to drive electric cars? Not a chance, the auto industry cannot supply that many vehicles of that type and guys like me, the overwhelming majority, cannot afford one of those vehicles.
How are they going to pay for all the charging stations around the province when they cannot even afford to fix the roads we drive on?
Solar panels last about 10 years and their electricity costs about 30 cents US per KWh. I cannot afford to run my house on electricity at this rate. Very few people can. I am struggling at 12 to 18 cents.
Solar is not as "green" as everyone thinks either. Most estimates of life-cycle emissions for photovoltaic systems are between 0.07 and 0.18 pounds of carbon dioxide equivalent per kilowatt-hour. http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_energy/...nmental-impacts-solar-power.html#.WFF-R5dv-VA


So.........what are they going to do? What is another chunk of the 1/2 of my yearly salary that they don't take in taxes, going to do to help save this planet from this devastation. Cause, certainly, it is out of God's hands........

that's a high bill. i think where i work its .08$ per kwh, but that isn't the fuel charge .

 

[Roro1972]

Extremely cold winters have less snow, as a rule. If you thought about it, I'm sure you could figure out why.

As first glance, asking whether global warming results in more snow may seem like a silly question because obviously, if it gets warm enough, there is no snow. Consequently, deniers of climate change have used recent snow dumps to cast doubt on a warming climate from human influences. Yet they could not be more wrong.


To understand the connection, we need to look at what conditions make for the heaviest snowfalls. Then, we can look at how climate change is affecting those conditions, especially temperatures in the atmosphere and oceans, during winters. Studying these factors reveals that there is a higher chance of heavy snow storms in North America but the length of the snow season is already shrinking due to global warming.

There is a saying that it can be “too cold to snow”! Of course, this is a myth but it has a basis in fact because the atmosphere gets freeze dried when it is very cold. That’s because the amount of moisture the atmosphere can hold depends very strongly on temperature. Under cold conditions, the snow is likely to consist of very small crystals and sometimes is very light and fluffy and like “diamond dust”.


By contrast, the heaviest snowfalls occur with surface temperatures from about 28°F to 32°F – just below the freezing point. Of course, once it gets much above freezing point, the snow turns to rain. So there is a “Goldilocks” set of conditions that are just right to result in a super snow storm. And these conditions are becoming more likely in mid-winter because of human-induced climate change.
http://www.iflscience.com/environment/does-global-warming-mean-more-or-less-snow/

I have an idea why don't we force all the global warming people to be sent to Saturn or Neptune to colonize one of those and the ones left on Earth will be warm and happy and the ones on Saturn or Neptune will be cool and happy.

 

[Corn Pop]

Here is the deal, for me. No matter what is causing it, nature or man, What are we going to do to stop it?

How is taxing me more going to stop this proposed endless, exponential rise in the earths temp? What are you going to do with the billions of dollars you take from us.
Ontario produces way more electricity than we use. Last year we cut back and the price went up because "you didn't use enough".
What other commodity, on this planet, gets more expensive when you have more supply?
Are we all going to drive electric cars? Not a chance, the auto industry cannot supply that many vehicles of that type and guys like me, the overwhelming majority, cannot afford one of those vehicles.
How are they going to pay for all the charging stations around the province when they cannot even afford to fix the roads we drive on?
Solar panels last about 10 years and their electricity costs about 30 cents US per KWh. I cannot afford to run my house on electricity at this rate. Very few people can. I am struggling at 12 to 18 cents.
Solar is not as "green" as everyone thinks either. Most estimates of life-cycle emissions for photovoltaic systems are between 0.07 and 0.18 pounds of carbon dioxide equivalent per kilowatt-hour. http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_energy/...nmental-impacts-solar-power.html#.WFF-R5dv-VA


So.........what are they going to do? What is another chunk of the 1/2 of my yearly salary that they don't take in taxes, going to do to help save this planet from this devastation. Cause, certainly, it is out of God's hands........

I know. The earth does not accept dollar bills. The powers that be are so brainwashed and sold out greed freaks they think they can buy the earth and offer it dollar bills and its going to heal itself. They think dollar bills can save and help everything in every situation

Any issue, money seems to be the answer. Give money or take money and all is good.

 

[Barbarian]

Here is the deal, for me. No matter what is causing it, nature or man, What are we going to do to stop it?

We're already working on it. Your car guzzles less gas than it did a decade ago. Less emissions. Consumers are starting to realize that wind power means lower utility bills. Buildings and HVAC systems are more efficient than they used to be. Coal could even come back. Cutting environmental laws won't work, but "clean coal" technologies might. There's encouraging evidence that might make the mines economically viable again.

How is taxing me more going to stop this proposed endless, exponential rise in the earths temp? What are you going to do with the billions of dollars you take from us.

This is the point. The right seems to be saying "if there's global warming, we think it will cost money to fix it, so there isn't any global warming."

If you can't see the problem with that, then you're definitely a conservative.

Ontario produces way more electricity than we use. Last year we cut back and the price went up because "you didn't use enough".
What other commodity, on this planet, gets more expensive when you have more supply?

Sounds like you have a problem. Washington State, as wind and hydroelectric power became more widely used, saw an increase in usage, and a drop in prices. Maybe you should send someone there to figure out how they did it.

Are we all going to drive electric cars?

More and more of us, yes. But it won't work for everyone or everything. It's just one more piece in the solution. No magic wand to fix things; it's a little at a time.

Not a chance, the auto industry cannot supply that many vehicles of that type and guys like me, the overwhelming majority, cannot afford one of those vehicles.

At the early 1900s, that was true of gasoline-powered cars. Your failure is lack of understanding of the way technology works. If there's a need, someone will figure out how to do it at an affordable price.

How are they going to pay for all the charging stations around the province when they cannot even afford to fix the roads we drive on?
Solar panels last about 10 years and their electricity costs about 30 cents US per KWh. I cannot afford to run my house on electricity at this rate. Very few people can. I am struggling at 12 to 18 cents.

In Texas, the people building them warranty 90 percent efficiency after 25 years. As I said, you don't understand how technology moves on when there's a need. The payout is still something like 18 years in Texas, after which it's like free electricity.

So.........what are they going to do?

Keep improving. That's what technologies do when there's a need. Instead of running around screaming that the sky is falling, we can do something about it. And it's underway. Sorry about things in your province.

 

[Pizza]

So who will build the power plants to charge all these EVs? And unless they are nuclear powered, you have not cut emissions much.

View attachment 10627

Trolling by pretending you don't understand what he's saying, again, I see.

 

[Barbarian]

So who will build the power plants to charge all these EVs?

Someone who sees money to be made.

And unless they are nuclear powered,

Or wind-powered, or carbon-recovery technology... or....

you have not cut emissions much.

"If everything stays the same, nothing will change."

True enough. But over time, nothing stays the same.

 

[Pizza]

NO ONE is going to build nuclear power plants, Barb. We have moved back to coal and gas due to the same broken thinking that brought us the whole 'green' movement to begin with.

 

[Jacks Bratt]

that's a high bill. i think where i work its .08$ per kwh, but that isn't the fuel charge .

We had electricity costs of $0.06 or $0.08 per kwh about 5-years ago. Now, we have on peak, mid peak and off peak costs and our meters are "smart meters" that determine when you use. Off peak is $0.12 per kwh and on peak is $0.18 per. We produce far more electricity than we need and PAY the US and Quebec to take our surplus. Then, when we conserve, they say "you didn't use enough, so price is going up". They also have 20 year contracts with people who put in "green" energy producing systems such as wind and solar and pay them $0.50 to $0.80 per kwh for this new "green" energy. Then, they sell it at $0.12 to $0.18 per kwh to the public...... Never in my life would I expect a government that does this to get re-elected...........our moronic populous voted them back with a majority........Now, above and beyond my outrageous cost per kwh, I have a "debt reduction" tax, to pay for the "green" energy that costs $0.80 per kwh. Then I have a "delivery fee" that pays for the infrasturcture maintenance. Then on top of all this, a 13% tax...... So, since I run my heating and cooking and hot water on Propane, to avoid this lunacy, my $60.00 of monthly electricity plus the other particulars and $100.00 delivery fee and tax, totals $200.00

To top it off, in January 2017, they are going to put another Cap and Trade tax on my electricity, gasoline, propane, electronics that I buy, and any other thing they can convince themselves is justifiable by their corrupt little climate changed brains, to pay to cool down the earth....... All this when 52% of all my earnings already go to one tax or another.

Ya, I love rediculous hoaxes like the "energy crisis" and "climate change"....they are doing wonders for my great great great grandchildren that God somehow forgot about and we the creations on His earth have to take matters into our own hands and take money from people so the earht won't melt down.... UUUUUGGGGGGHHHHHHH . This is all bovine excrement.

In 40 years we will all be back to an energy crisis due to record low temps......

 

[jasonc]

We had electricity costs of $0.06 or $0.08 per kwh about 5-years ago. Now, we have on peak, mid peak and off peak costs and our meters are "smart meters" that determine when you use. Off peak is $0.12 per kwh and on peak is $0.18 per. We produce far more electricity than we need and PAY the US and Quebec to take our surplus. Then, when we conserve, they say "you didn't use enough, so price is going up". They also have 20 year contracts with people who put in "green" energy producing systems such as wind and solar and pay them $0.50 to $0.80 per kwh for this new "green" energy. Then, they sell it at $0.12 to $0.18 per kwh to the public...... Never in my life would I expect a government that does this to get re-elected...........our moronic populous voted them back with a majority........Now, above and beyond my outrageous cost per kwh, I have a "debt reduction" tax, to pay for the "green" energy that costs $0.80 per kwh. Then I have a "delivery fee" that pays for the infrasturcture maintenance. Then on top of all this, a 13% tax...... So, since I run my heating and cooking and hot water on Propane, to avoid this lunacy, my $60.00 of monthly electricity plus the other particulars and $100.00 delivery fee and tax, totals $200.00

To top it off, in January 2017, they are going to put another Cap and Trade tax on my electricity, gasoline, propane, electronics that I buy, and any other thing they can convince themselves is justifiable by their corrupt little climate changed brains, to pay to cool down the earth....... All this when 52% of all my earnings already go to one tax or another.

Ya, I love rediculous hoaxes like the "energy crisis" and "climate change"....they are doing wonders for my great great great grandchildren that God somehow forgot about and we the creations on His earth have to take matters into our own hands and take money from people so the earht won't melt down.... UUUUUGGGGGGHHHHHHH . This is all bovine excrement.

In 40 years we will all be back to an energy crisis due to record low temps......

You are the second to tell me that . what a racket

 

[jasonc]

So if the us buys power from you then until prices are lowered stop selling it to us.of course this means a spike in power bills.

 

[Jacks Bratt]

So if the us buys power from you then until prices are lowered stop selling it to us.of course this means a spike in power bills.

That's just it. We don't "sell" it to you. We "pay" you to take it off our grid due to the fact that we have too much.

What other commodity in this world goes up in price due to having too much of it???? Ontario electricity.
What do you do if you are producing too much of a product?? In Ontario, you pay 600% of the market cost to the producers and then sell it for a 77% loss that you pass on to your public rate payers...

All this is done under the facade of ending "climate change"

 

[Jacks Bratt]

We're already working on it. Your car guzzles less gas than it did a decade ago. Less emissions. Consumers are starting to realize that wind power means lower utility bills. Buildings and HVAC systems are more efficient than they used to be. Coal could even come back. Cutting environmental laws won't work, but "clean coal" technologies might. There's encouraging evidence that might make the mines economically viable again.



This is the point. The right seems to be saying "if there's global warming, we think it will cost money to fix it, so there isn't any global warming."

If you can't see the problem with that, then you're definitely a conservative.



Sounds like you have a problem. Washington State, as wind and hydroelectric power became more widely used, saw an increase in usage, and a drop in prices. Maybe you should send someone there to figure out how they did it.



More and more of us, yes. But it won't work for everyone or everything. It's just one more piece in the solution. No magic wand to fix things; it's a little at a time.



At the early 1900s, that was true of gasoline-powered cars. Your failure is lack of understanding of the way technology works. If there's a need, someone will figure out how to do it at an affordable price.



In Texas, the people building them warranty 90 percent efficiency after 25 years. As I said, you don't understand how technology moves on when there's a need. The payout is still something like 18 years in Texas, after which it's like free electricity.



Keep improving. That's what technologies do when there's a need. Instead of running around screaming that the sky is falling, we can do something about it. And it's underway. Sorry about things in your province.

All well and good but there is no need for that change.......yet. When it is needed technology will have caught up and fossil fuels will be replaced by more efficient sources...........not now, not for false flag purposes and reasons, not on my wallet.

 

[Pizza]

Your car guzzles less gas than it did a decade ago. Less emissions.

I thought so as well. The improvement in the past ten years has been minimal.
Given the huge number of sales of the new big pickups and the proliferation of SUVs, I'd bet our consumption is up.

The pickups I've been renting for work get 17 to 20, my 1993 GMC got 22. Of course, pickups today are actually heavier and larger AND offer more horsepower than mine did.

 

[jasonc]

That's just it. We don't "sell" it to you. We "pay" you to take it off our grid due to the fact that we have too much.

What other commodity in this world goes up in price due to having too much of it???? Ontario electricity.
What do you do if you are producing too much of a product?? In Ontario, you pay 600% of the market cost to the producers and then sell it for a 77% loss that you pass on to your public rate payers...

All this is done under the facade of ending "climate change"

I would like more on this ,my avatar is a plant whose life pretry much produced power that was sold to fpl and hence possibly even Canada,fpl is part of next era which is in Maine

 

[Barbarian]

thought so as well. The improvement in the past ten years has been minimal.
Given the huge number of sales of the new big pickups and the proliferation of SUVs, I'd bet our consumption is up.

The pickups I've been renting for work get 17 to 20, my 1993 GMC got 22. Of course, pickups today are actually heavier and larger AND offer more horsepower than mine did.

More stuff moved farther with less gas. A good thing. Of course, dropping gas prices meant that bigger cars become economically feasible. But even with the larger vehicles, the advent of alcohol in gas meant cleaner burning and higher octane. On the minus side, slightly fewer BTUs per gallon.

Given that warming is now proceeding faster than predicted, we can use that reduction.