So who's right?

[SpiritualSon]

The Truth matters. The problem is when you do study with a preconcieved notion. I did that for a long time, then I stopped and let my faith defend itself. And it couldnt, so I converted to Catholicism. So, perhaps my answer may be a little biased, but I believe honest study will either bring you to the Church, or at the very least to a respect of it. So far, from what I have been studying, catholics make a good case for pretty much everything. Faith is not divorced from reason.

Once you study Swedenborg's writings and become a member of the New Church, you'll never go back to your former faith. Most convertions of Protestant men to Catholicism is because of a woman who come into their life, a Catholic woman, or because a Catholic member in their family, not because of truth. Some have been frighten into joining the Catholic Church, after being told that there is no salvation outside the church. When I first started read Swedenborg's writngs there was no woman in my life. It was between me and God. None of my brothers and sisters knew I change my religion at that time. When they found out, my mother and youngest sister and brother were happy for me, but my oldest sister and brother aren't happy with my changing.

Harry :fadein:

 

[Sothenes]

... Jesus said that when the heavens and earth disappear the Law would disappear.

Paul taught that the “LAW†was for all intent and practical purposes finished. Paul taught that the law was weak and miserable, obsolete, finished and soon to be abolished.

The Question is in what sense did the heavens and earth disappear?...

Just a thought... mabye the question should be; have the heavens and eath passed away yet?

I take that verse to mean the inerrency of the law won't pass away until..

 

[ArtGuy]

That is the question. I hear all sorts of differences of opinions: OSAS or NOSAS, Trinity or no Trinity, Mary perpetual virgin or had other children, Obey the Law or Law is fulfilled, and on and on and on.

So who is right? Do we really know? Should we continually do studies and more studies to find out which is correct?

Or should we just worship Jesus and God the way we do and not worry about the differences of opinion?

I am interested on any thoughts about this.

Who's right? Impossible to say until we can ask the Big Guy in person, though I'm sure many people will claim otherwise.

Does it matter? Yes and no. It matters in much the same way it matters whether or not you do little things that will upset your parents. If I sneak out of the house one night to go to a party, does it matter that it's wrong? Of course it does - I've broken my parents' trust, violated their rules, and it's extremely relevant. I should live according to the rules they set, because I am their child, and I should respect their wishes, at least as long as I'm under their roof. Does it mean they'll stop loving me? No, it doesn't. My parents recognize that I'm going to mess up, because I'm a kid, and they won't stop loving me because of it. So while it's important for me to obey their wishes, it's not something that's going to make or break whether or not they still love me, and I should obsess over it in that sense.

I think how to interpret the Bible is the same way. If we've accepted Jesus as our savior, then we're saved. Whether or not we live perfectly isn't going to affect whether or not Jesus loves us, or whether or not we'll get into heaven. We should try to live according to His rules, out of respect and courtesy and adherance to what's right, but if we mess up here and there it won't matter too much in the long run.

So in that light, debates over how we should interpret the Bible are important, but perhaps not as important as some would have you believe. Whether creation or evolution is correct is very relevant, but in the long run, it doesn't much matter - both creationists and evolutionists will get into heaven if they accept the Lord, and the winners can laugh at the losers in heaven to their hearts' content. Does it matter whether or not homosexuality is a sin, and if so, what the proper conduct is for those born with an inclination towards it (yes, yes, I know a bunch of you think that all the science pointing to this is wrong or fabricated, let's not get into that here)? Yes, because it's important to know what's right and wrong. Does this mean that those on the wrong side of the debate are going to be sentenced to Hell if they've otherwise signed their lives over to Christ? No, because God isn't a jerk, and won't punish a fallible people over a misinterpretation of an ancient text written without using any vowels that's been translated hundreds of times since the dawn of Christianity.

So I think these discussions are important, and they're worth having, but we should all put things into perspective a bit. The disagreements aren't worth dying over, they're not worth killing over, and they're not worth a lot of the hate that they create.

 

[Imagican]

Look, the law was for those that KNEW NO BETTER. Now that Christ has come and can dwell within us, the law is NO LONGER able to separate us from God. If it is, then we are ALL doomed.

Imagican,

Are you interpreting that we are no longer have to obey the law?

thanks.

What I am offering ginger is that we are INCAPABLE of following the 'law'. If we WERE capable, then Christ died in vain.

Now, please don't misunderstand me, I am referring to the 'written law'. For those that accept Christ into their hearts and BELIEVE, the laws are 'then written in the hearts of them'. Christ explained that Moses law stated that what we do or don't do would be counted as 'sin' against us. Christ stated that to even 'think' of such things is to sin 'in our hearts'. So, we are really held accountable MORE now than the Jews were by the 'written law'. BUT, we are NO longer bound to the past punishments for the breaking of the 'written law'. We have the Savior now who died for these sins so that we would NOT have to.

The ONLY way in which we can follow the 'law' NOW is through the Spirit. Any attempt to 'follow' the law through our OWN efforts is through misunderstanding of the Word. For we are UNABLE TO FOLLOW THE LAW on our own accord. IMPOSSIBLE. For if this were NOT SO, then Christ would NOT have had to suffer as He did.

It's up to US as individuals to accept the Spirit and follow where it leads. The 'written law' no longer plays a part in this.

Understand folks, at one time, to break the 'written law' meant DEATH. Christ DIED THAT DEATH. It's up to YOU to understand and accept this. If not, then you WILL be held accountable to that which you believe in your heart.

So, do yourselves a favor, (those that believe we are still bound to the written law'), read what Paul offered as far as YOUR FREEDOM is concerned. It certainly makes it much easier to open yourselves up to the relashionship that God wants to have with you. If not, you will be bound to 'go it alone' for how could you have a relationship with someone or God, if there was NOTHING but fear inside you? Let it go, accept the gift that has been offered and learn to love God and your neighbor. THIS is THE LAW NOW!!!! Once one begins this journey, then EVERYTHING else will begin to fall into place REGARDLESS of your EFFORT to follow 'the written law'. Allow yourselves to be conformed THROUGH the Spirit, for to try and do this yourself is an IMPOSSIBLE effort.

 

[ArtGuy]

Well, presumably, God set up certain rules because they were what He thinks is fair and just. Given that these laws represent what God thinks is the ideal way for us to live, shouldn't we try to adhere to them to the best of our (very limited ability), even if we're ultimately doomed to fail? Isn't the effort we put forth important?

My daughter likes to help with the housework. She's just a toddler, and isn't much help, but I love the fact that she wants to try, and I encourage it. It shows strength of character that she wants to try so hard, even though I know she's not going to contribute anything substantial to the effort.

It seems like you're suggesting that even if we know what God wants of us, we should completely ignore it, and revel in our sin, because we'll never be able to achieve perfection.

 

[Klee shay]

God is right - no one else should even enter the competition.

The sooner we put doctrine away and follow God through the words delivered by His Son; the sooner we will come close to his glory. But I'm not so foolish as to believe this can happen immediately. Sometimes we have to taste of man-made doctrine before we hunger enough for the Lord's table.

You ask a very astute question Christine; "Who IS right?"

"..Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice." JOHN 18:37

Because we hear the truth doesn't mean we can teach the truth as well as Jesus bore witness to it.

"Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you." JOHN 15:3

Why then do we look for other teachers of the word, which purifies unto God's glory?

 

[I Reckon Sow]

I was wondering if you could help me deal with this post by Theolog:
BAD NEWS FOR THE LEGALISTS
The law is abolished and heaven and earth dissapeared.

I will answer the questions posted by Theolog. First of all im standing on the earth, so its still here in my opinion. 2nd of all which should be 1st of all, when i stand before Christ, i would not wanna say to Him "SAVE ME LORD" im an illegallist. I did nothing ya told me to do! Didnt listen to anything you said. Save me! YIKES!

 

[I Reckon Sow]

DID JESUS FULFILL THE LAW?
Just what does the Bible say?

Concerning the post from Thelog

MATT.5 [17] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. [18] For verily I say unto you, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, ONE JOT OR ONE TITTLE SHALL IN NO WISE PASS FROM THE LAW, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED.[19] Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.[20] For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.[21] Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:[22] But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

What did Jesus mean when he said he came to fulfill the law? Did he mean he came to do away with the law or make the law even greater? First he says he has not come to destoy the law. OK. Then he goes on to say the law is intact until heaven and earth pass. I know the earth is still here, so according to Jesus we are still under the law. And when we look at verses 21 and 22 we can see how Jesus fulfilled the law. He tells us not only to keep the letter of the law (thou shall not kill) but we are also to keep the spirit of the law (don’t even get angry).

MATT.5 [27] Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:[28] But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Again Jesus fills full another one of the 10 commandments. Adultry (the letter of the law) and lust of the eyes (the spirit of the law).

ROMANS 7 [12] Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. [13] Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. [14] For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

The law is spiritual. The letter of the law is so much easier to keep than the spirit of the law. Jesus magnified the law to a spiritual realm. And if you sit and think about it you will realize you cant keep the spirit of the law if you are not first walking in the letter of the law.

ISAIAH 42 [20] Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not.[21] The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

Isaiah 42 is speaking of Jesus. Just read the whole chapter. Theres no question about it. A prophecy fulfilled! The above scripture says Jesus would come and will magnify the law. Yup, and the new testament bears this out. He made the commandments even greater

ROMANS 7 [4] Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. [5] For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. [6] BUT NOW WE ARE DELIVERED FROM THE LAW, that being dead wherein we were held; THAT WE SHOULD SERVE IN NEWNESS OF SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE OLDNESS OF THE LETTER.

Jesus magnified the 10 commandments to a spiritual level. But as ive said before, theres no way to walk in the spirit of the law without first walking in the letter of the law. Think about it.

 

[Sothenes]

DID JESUS FULFILL THE LAW?
Just what does the Bible say?

Concerning the post from Thelog

MATT.5 [17] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. [18] For verily I say unto you, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, ONE JOT OR ONE TITTLE SHALL IN NO WISE PASS FROM THE LAW, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED.[19] Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.[20] For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

What did Jesus mean when he said he came to fulfill the law? Did he mean he came to do away with the law or make the law even greater? First he says he has not come to destoy the law. OK. Then he goes on to say the law is intact until heaven and earth pass. I know the earth is still here, so according to Jesus we are still under the law. And when we look at verses 21 and 22 we can see how Jesus fulfilled the law. He tells us not only to keep the letter of the law (thou shall not kill) but we are also to keep the spirit of the law (don’t even get angry).

Jesus said,"TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, ONE JOT OR ONE TITTLE SHALL IN NO WISE PASS FROM THE LAW, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED". A jot and a tittle is the dotting of an "I" and the crossing of a "t". That speaks more about inerrency than keeping the law. Jesus said,"That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." Who could be more righteous and law keeping than the scribes and the Pharisees? Since the Bible says that our righteousness is as filthy rags, that no one doeth good and that we have all fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:24) then how do you expect your righteousness to be better than law keeping?

Jesus said,"I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil". Right? You said,"Then he goes on to say the law is intact until heaven and earth pass." What Jesus said was,"..ONE JOT OR ONE TITTLE SHALL IN NO WISE PASS FROM THE LAW, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED". My question is did Jesus fulfill or did Jesus not fulfill? If you are saying that the law is intact until heaven and earth pass then you are saying that Jesus didn't fulfill. Jesus said He came to fulfill and you would have to say that He didn't.