wavy said:
This is something I have never received an answer on by any believer who does not heed all Torah.
Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
I assume (with hope) that we all agree this is a strict commandment against homosexual behavior.
When Christian believers quote Romans 13:8-10, or Galatians 5:14 as "proof" text that the Torah commandments are not binding, but all that matters is "love", why then is homosexuality forbidden?
Homosexual's can't love? They are constantly doing wrong to their neighbor?
Many then take you to Romans 1:26-27 and Romans 1:31 to use the words of Paul that prohibit homosexual behavior.
Is Paul contradicting himself? Why is he condemning that behavior if all that matters is love? Is he picking and choosing laws out of the "old" testament?
Why can't we have sex with beasts or sleep with our sister? Why can't we get drunk or commit fornication? These things don't stop us from "loving". We could very well do these things and still do no harm to our neighbor. Who's business is it about what goes on with you and your dog or horse?
It seems to me that there is more to how love fulfills the Torah than what most believers say goes along with it.
WHAT IS THE POSITION OF ANY RELIGION OR CHURCH THAT CONDONES THE ACTS OF LESBIANS OR HOMOSEXUALS?
WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY?
God loves the sinner but not the sin (John 3:16) and the same must be for all who claim to be followers of Jesus Christ, thus any religion that does not OPENLY condemn Homosexuality but openly say that God allows it by his worshipers and loves them even though they are perverted AND STILL PRACTICE, is taking a direct stand against God (James 4:4) thus there worship and organisations are totally futile, in fact it becomes reverence for God's enemy Satan the Devil who rejected all of God standards. All who reject God standards and practice sexual perversions do the same, but when they do it in God's name they must stand before his word the Bible and be examined and judge by his Holy Scriptures! 1 Cor. 6:9-11 states "What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? DO NOT BE MISLED. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men (Gk. “arsenokoitesâ€Â), nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom."
The above from ‘The New International Version’ at 1 Cor. 6:9-11 reads, “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual (Gk. “arsenokoitesâ€Â) offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. Ftn. Reads: “6:9 not inherit the kingdom of God. Cf. Jn 3:3-5. sexually immoral. Paul here identifies three kinds of sexually immoral persons: adulterers, male prostitutes and males who practice homosexuality. In Ro 1:26 he adds the category of females who practice homosexuality. People who engage in such practices, as well as the other offenders listed in vv. 9-10, are explicitly excluded from God's kingdom ….â€Â-Excerpted from Compton's Interactive Bible NIV. Copyright (c) 1994, 1995, 1996 SoftKey Multimedia Inc.
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Further to the above the N.I.V. reads at Jude 3-7 “Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. 4For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
“Sodomite n. person who practises sodomy. [Greek: related to *sodomy].â€Â-Oxford Dic.
“Sodomy n. = *buggery. sodomize v. (also -ise) (-zing or -sing). [Latin from Sodom: Gen. 18,19] .â€Â-Oxford Dic.
“Buggery n. 1 anal intercourse. 2 = *bestiality 2.â€Â-Oxford Dic
Note Gen. 13:13 “And the men of Sod´om were bad and were gross sinners against Jehovah.†The N.I.V. reads: “Now the men of Sodom were wicked and were sinning greatly against the LORD. “
IF THEY HAVE ON HOPE OF GOING INTO GOD'S HEAVENLY KINGDOM HOW CAN THEIR 'LOVE' & WORSHIP BE EXPECTABLE TO GOD; ALSO HOW CAN THEY LEAD ANYBODY TO GOD, IF THEY STAND REJECTED BY HIM?
But they can change as 1 Cor 6:11 says "And yet that is what some of YOU WERE. But YOU have been washed clean, but YOU have been sanctified, but YOU have been declared righteous in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God."
Here it is plan to see that for their worship to be expectable they MUST CHANGE and stop their gross perversions and until they do they bring God into disrepute by their detestable perversions as Romans 1:18-21 says "For God’s wrath is being revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who are suppressing the truth in an unrighteous way, because what may be known about God is manifest among them, for God made it manifest to them. For his invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world's creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable; because, although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God nor did they thank him, but they became empty-headed in their reasonings and their unintelligent heart became darkened."
God passes his judgment on them at Rom 1:24-28 Therefore God, in keeping with the desires of their hearts, gave them up to uncleanness, that their bodies might be dishonored among them, 25 even those who exchanged the truth of God for the lie and venerated and rendered sacred service to the creation rather than the One who created, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 That is why God gave them up to disgraceful sexual appetites, for both their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; 27 and likewise even the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full recompense, which was due for their error.
28 And just as they did not approve of holding God in accurate knowledge, God gave them up to a disapproved mental state, to do the things not fitting, … 32 Although these know full well the righteous decree of God, that those practicing such things are deserving of death, they not only keep on doing them but also consent with those practicing them.†This is the same as ancient Israel did and God executed all of them and all there congregations. -Jude 5-8
At 1 Cor. 15:33-34 we read "Do not be misled. Bad associations spoil useful habits. Wake up to soberness in a righteous way and do not practice sin, for some are without knowledge of God." so these persons have no relationship with the God of the Bible as seen in the above text as they make a PRACTICE OF SIN and say God agrees, either by word or deed thus they are liars and take people away from God's truth and Love, so then Hebrews 10:26-27 applies to them "For if we practice sin wilfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, but [there is] a certain fearful expectation of judgment and [there is] a fiery jealousy that is going to consume those in opposition." These persons need help to practice TRUE Christianity and repent and come to God's Son and leave their false Christianity with it's toleration of gross sexual perversions, for If they CONTINUE IN perversions the sacrifice of Jesus Christ will not apply to them as they have not repented from there PRACTICE OF Sinning.
At James 1:26-27 we read "If any man seems to himself to be a formal worshiper and yet does not bridle his tongue, but goes on deceiving his own heart, this man’s form of worship is futile. The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world." The 'world', ungodly people alienated from God and under the direct or indirect control of Satan (1 John 2:15-17), accepts Homosexuality as an alternative life style, this CANNOT BE SO WITH ANYBODY THAT CLAIMS TO BE A CHRISTIAN.
For instance the Bible clearly states at 1 John 5:2-3 how to identify persons that have a true Love for God as it states "By this we gain the knowledge that we are loving the children of God, when we are loving God and doing his commandments. For this is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome" and the above condemnation of sexual perversions is clear, so the God of such persons is found at 2 Tim. 3:4-5 they are "lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power; and from these turn away", thus their God is sex as it comes before obeying God's moral code as found in the Holy Bible, so they stand rejected by God if they do not change.
NOTE THE FOLLOWING WARNING IF HOMOSEXUALS ETC. CLAIM TO BE CHRISTIANS !
1 Cor. 5:9-13 "In my letter I wrote YOU to QUIT MIXING IN COMPANY WITH FORNICATORS*, not [meaning] entirely with the fornicators of this world or the greedy persons and extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, YOU would actually have to get out of the world. But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator* or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.â€Â
*FORNICATION - Illicit sex relations outside of Scriptural marriage. The Greek word translated “fornication†is por•nei'a. Regarding the meanings of por•nei'a, B. F. Westcott in his book Saint Paul’s Epistle to the Ephesians (1906, p. 76) says: “This is a general term for all unlawful intercourse, (I) adultery: Hos. ii. 2, 4 (LXX.); Matt. v. 32; xix. 9; (2) unlawful marriage, I Cor. v. I; (3) fornication, the common sense as here [Eph 5:3].†Bauer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (revised by F. W. Gingrich and F. Danker, 1979, p. 693) defines por•nei'a as “prostitution, unchastity, fornication, of every kind of unlawful sexual intercourse.†Porneia is understood to involve the grossly immoral use of the genital organ(s) of at least one human; also there must have been two or more parties (including another consenting human or a beast), whether of the same sex or the opposite sex.-Jude 7
Also at 2 Peter 2:1-3 the scriptures clearly states "However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among YOU. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. Furthermore, many will follow their acts of LOOSE CONDUCT*, and on account of these the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively. Also, with covetousness they will exploit YOU with counterfeit words. But as for them, the judgment from of old is not moving slowly, and the destruction of them is not slumbering."
*LOOSE CONDUCT - Acts that reflect a brazen attitude, an attitude betraying disrespect, even contempt for law and authority. … The Greek term a•sel'gei•a (loose conduct) may also be rendered “licentiousness; wantonness; shameless conduct; lewdness of conduct.†(Gal 5:19, ftn; 2 Pet 2:7, ftn) Neither term is restricted to sexual immorality. The Scriptures classify as loose conduct such tgs as gang rape (Jg 19:25; 20:6), prostitution (Jer 13:27; Eze 23:44), and bloodshed (Ps 26:9, 10; Eze 22:9; Hos 6:9). “The unprincipled man†is the one who is said to scheme loose conduct, and those to whom such conduct is “like sport†are classed as stupid, or morally worthless.â€â€Isa 32:7; Prov 10:23.
