Social Justice Jesus

[ezrider]

I have no idea what your point is in the last sentence. Please explain to us the fundamental Biblical argument against shaping the institutions of our world so that they implement "charity" - having money flow from the rich to the poor.

Jesus certainly seems to have embraced this idea when he instructs the rich ruler to give to the poor. Now, as I believe I have already argued, it makes no sense whatsoever to embrace this kind of value at the individual level, but to then reject it at the corporate (societal) level.

If I might add, it has always been the responsibility of the government, whether it be the rulers, kings or judges of the nation, to execute the judgements of the law to the peoples. Romans 13 only re-enforces this notion.

Romans 13:4-6 ( KJV ) ⁴For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. ⁵Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. ⁶For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

Was it not commanded in the law, that the fields were not to be completely harvested, or the vineyards picked clean, but a portion was to be left to the poor? Was in not commanded in the law that the debts of the poor were to be forgiven at the end of the seventh year? Does not the law speak against usury (charging interest) and taking increase for profit?

Deuteronomy 15:10-11 ( KJV ) ¹⁰Thou shalt surely give him, and thine heart shall not be grieved when thou givest unto him: because that for this thing the LORD thy God shall bless thee in all thy works, and in all that thou puttest thine hand unto. ¹¹For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.

This is the command of the Lord, both to the people, and the rulers he has set over them; to the individual, and to the nation.

Jeremiah 5:25-31 ( KJV ) ²⁵Your iniquities have turned away these things, and your sins have withholden good things from you. ²⁶For among my people are found wicked men: they lay wait, as he that setteth snares; they set a trap, they catch men. ²⁷As a cage is full of birds, so are their houses full of deceit: therefore they are become great, and waxen rich. ²⁸They are waxen fat, they shine: yea, they overpass the deeds of the wicked: they judge not the cause, the cause of the fatherless, yet they prosper; and the right of the needy do they not judge. ²⁹Shall I not visit for these things? saith the LORD: shall not my soul be avenged on such a nation as this? ³⁰A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land; ³¹The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

 

[Drummer4Christ]

No. It is a command from God. How can you suggest otherwise?

Let's start with the Old Testament:

<sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-17721">13</sup> The LORD arises to contend,
And stands to judge the people.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-17722">14</sup> The LORD enters into judgment with the elders and princes of His people,
“It is you who have devoured the vineyard;
The plunder of the poor is in your houses.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-17723">15</sup> “What do you mean by crushing My people
And grinding the face of the poor?â€
Declares the Lord GOD of hosts.

Now I have little doubt that those who want to believe this text does not implicitly support "re-distribution of wealth" will say that the text is not explicitly advocating such re-distribution - that it only critiques taking advantage of the poor. Well, fair enough. But I suggest that in many cases, people get rich in the first place by taking advantage of the poor. We can talk more about this if you like.

Please explain how "the elders and princes of His people" mean "the rich".
When God refers to "His people" in any context in the OT, He explicitly means the Jews and no one else. There is no point in discussing the notion that rich people become wealthy by exploiting the poor if you are going to distort Scripture to mean something it clearly doesn't to back your claim.

This is what I meant earlier about Murder. God states explicitly that murder is a sin. Nowhere does He explicitly say that not redistributing wealth is a sin.


Let's look at the entire chapter of Isaiah 58:

<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-18788">1</sup> “Shout it aloud, do not hold back.
Raise your voice like a trumpet.
Declare to my people their rebellion
and to the descendants of Jacob their sins.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-18789">2</sup> For day after day they seek me out;
they seem eager to know my ways,
as if they were a nation that does what is right
and has not forsaken the commands of its God.
They ask me for just decisions
and seem eager for God to come near them.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-18790">3</sup> ‘Why have we fasted,’ they say,
‘and you have not seen it?
Why have we humbled ourselves,
and you have not noticed?’ “Yet on the day of your fasting, you do as you please
and exploit all your workers.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-18791">4</sup> Your fasting ends in quarreling and strife,
and in striking each other with wicked fists.
You cannot fast as you do today
and expect your voice to be heard on high.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-18792">5</sup> Is this the kind of fast I have chosen,
only a day for people to humble themselves?
Is it only for bowing one’s head like a reed
and for lying in sackcloth and ashes?
Is that what you call a fast,
a day acceptable to the LORD?
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-18793">6</sup> “Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen:
to loose the chains of injustice
and untie the cords of the yoke,
to set the oppressed free
and break every yoke?
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-18794">7</sup> Is it not to share your food with the hungry
and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter—
when you see the naked, to clothe them,
and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-18795">8</sup> Then your light will break forth like the dawn,
and your healing will quickly appear;
then your righteousness<sup class="footnote" value="[<a href=&quot;#fen-NIV-18795a&quot; title=&quot;See footnote a&quot;>a</a>]">[a]</sup> will go before you,
and the glory of the LORD will be your rear guard.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-18796">9</sup> Then you will call, and the LORD will answer;
you will cry for help, and he will say: Here am I.
“If you do away with the yoke of oppression,
with the pointing finger and malicious talk,
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-18797">10</sup> and if you spend yourselves in behalf of the hungry
and satisfy the needs of the oppressed,
then your light will rise in the darkness,
and your night will become like the noonday.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-18798">11</sup> The LORD will guide you always;
he will satisfy your needs in a sun-scorched land
and will strengthen your frame.
You will be like a well-watered garden,
like a spring whose waters never fail.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-18799">12</sup> Your people will rebuild the ancient ruins
and will raise up the age-old foundations;
you will be called Repairer of Broken Walls,
Restorer of Streets with Dwellings.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-18800">13</sup> “If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath
and from doing as you please on my holy day,
if you call the Sabbath a delight
and the LORD’s holy day honorable,
and if you honor it by not going your own way
and not doing as you please or speaking idle words,
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-18801">14</sup> then you will find your joy in the LORD,
and I will cause you to ride in triumph on the heights of the land
and to feast on the inheritance of your father Jacob.â€
For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

Studying the entire chapter reveals that the behavior of the Israelites (specifically fasting) was displeasing to God and, that if the Jews turn from their wicked ways: "The LORD will guide you always;
he will satisfy your needs"

The Lord, NOT rich people.

Or what about this kind of thinking:

1. I think it is good for me not to murder;
2. ....but I do not particularly think its important to promote and enshrine this value at the societal level.

For the last time, the subject of murder is clearly outlined. Nowhere is God as explicit about wealth distribution as H is with murder. Unless you can provide a verse from Scripture that states "Thou shall redistribute wealth", comparing it to laws against murder is not analogous.

Why do people not embrace re-distribution of wealth? I politely suggest it is because they do not want to share with the poor and want an "out". Look - if we are instructed to be generous as individuals, it only makes sense that, as a society, we collectively do the same thing.

Neither you nor I know what is in the hearts of men, only God does. To claim that those who oppose social justice do so out of guilt stemming from greed, is passing judgement.

No doubt some will engage in the patently incorrect "taxation for wealth re-distribution is 'forced' giving and the Lord wants us to give freely" line of reasoning.

This is simply not true - you vote to be taxed, knowing full well that some of that $$ goes to the poor.

According to another user on this thread who is an advocate of social justice:

I pay taxes that supports an American war which murders every day. I support having a military, knowing that sometimes they will do things that I consider "murder".

Please explain to Rhea that she shouldn't be upset because she voted to be taxed knowing full well her money would be used to kill people. The military IS a charity, you know. Look at all the charitable work they've done: Earthquake Relief in Haiti, Gulf Coast clean up, waterboarding Terrorists.

Inevitably, the government is going to spend your tax dollars in a fashion you object to. By virtue of voting does not grant you the ability to dictate how your taxes are spent, nor does it grant you a money back guarantee when the government acts contrary to your principles. This should put to rest the argument that taxes are voluntary and, that public spending is charity.

 

[Rhea]

@Handy - you're welcome, I wanted to keep that short just to answer your question.

@Jason - you have misrepresented what I wrote both here and in the other thread and you can quit alluding to my PMs in public any time now, please.

@Drummer - happy to get back on target, was just answering what someone else brought up.

@Drew - I like the charity in your heart. It's refreshing to see someone arguing to GIVE and not to be looking for excuses to not give. I'm not a christian, but I heartily agree with your sense of duty to others. And while not a Christian, I also agree that your bible supports you.

 

[Rageprophet]

Can you please provide the source(s) from which you obtained this information?

List of most charitable countries - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Rageprophet]

News that the poverty rate remained at 12.6 percent last year, statistically unchanged from the year before, has set off a predictable round of calls for increased government spending on social welfare programs. From the New York Times to the Democratic Leadership, we hear familiar complaints about how George W. Bush and congressional Republicans have "slashed" anti-poverty programs.
Yet, last year, the federal government spent more than $477 billion on some 50 different programs to fight poverty. That amounts to $12,892 for every poor man, woman, and child in this country. And it does not even begin to count welfare spending by state and local governments. For all the talk about Republican budget cuts, spending on these social programs has increased an inflation-adjusted 22 percent since President Bush took office.
Despite this government largesse, 37 million Americans continue to live in poverty. In fact, despite nearly $9 trillion in total welfare spending since Lyndon Johnson declared War on Poverty in 1964, the poverty rate is perilously close to where it was when we began, more than 40 years ago.

Clearly we are doing something wrong. Throwing money at the problem has neither reduced poverty nor made the poor self-sufficient. But government welfare programs have torn at the social fabric of the country and been a significant factor in increasing out-of-wedlock births with all of their attendant problems. They have weakened the work ethic and contributed to rising crime rates. Most tragically of all, the pathologies they engender have been passed on from parent to child, from generation to generation.

this was posted by the CATO institute


Matthew 7:16-20
King James Version (KJV)



<SUP id=en-KJV-23333 class=versenum>16</SUP>Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
<SUP id=en-KJV-23334 class=versenum>17</SUP>Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
<SUP id=en-KJV-23335 class=versenum>18</SUP>A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
<SUP id=en-KJV-23336 class=versenum>19</SUP>Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. <SUP id=en-KJV-23337 class=versenum>20</SUP>Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

While I respect your views I do not agree with them, social justice I do not feel is biblical, giving money to the poor is.



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[jasoncran]

in florida. we have what is called road rangers. there are on the interstates and also on the turnpike. i am not totally against this idea but..


i have done on my accord what they do. i have helped changed tires, drove broken down drivers. i have repaired or replaced parts on the spot, etc. now then, for the most part all for free. i never asked for money, just helped out.

yet one member would dare have the govt do what i do and me just drive by. God wanted me to do that(my wife hated that at times as i was late for dates and i also miss churched in the process) later on she loved that i would do that for people.

yrs ago, a member of my church and dear friend who is deceased and with the lord was disabled and on welfare and also in need often. she didnt have much in the material or money but in spirit joy and etc. i cant count how many times we in the church( a few) would assist. i did any work i could on her car and seldom took pay. i didnt want it. my blessing was in that she was blessed.

why does it say that its better to give then to recieve. i think God wants us to see and know whom we help face to face, yes sometimes we bless by the tithing and offerings but the workers then are blessed when they use that money for charities. and often is the case where they share those stories.

its because of those stories and or individuals led of God to give to the needy when the needy prayed for a miracle that i believe in divine providence

donating via taxes all but negates that call. you dont need church at all to do that.
would the pro pusher of christian socialism make and athiest or jew etc pray for the christian in need when they ask for it on the govt run programs by law?

i have prayed for the lost when i did help them or ministered to them. but if i did that while in a govt uniform the aclu would sue me and my job.

 

[Drummer4Christ]

If I might add, it has always been the responsibility of the government, whether it be the rulers, kings or judges of the nation, to execute the judgements of the law to the peoples. Romans 13 only re-enforces this notion.

Romans 13:4-6 ( KJV ) ⁴For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. ⁵Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. ⁶For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

Was it not commanded in the law, that the fields were not to be completely harvested, or the vineyards picked clean, but a portion was to be left to the poor? Was in not commanded in the law that the debts of the poor were to be forgiven at the end of the seventh year? Does not the law speak against usury (charging interest) and taking increase for profit?

Deuteronomy 15:10-11 ( KJV ) ¹⁰Thou shalt surely give him, and thine heart shall not be grieved when thou givest unto him: because that for this thing the LORD thy God shall bless thee in all thy works, and in all that thou puttest thine hand unto. ¹¹For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.

This is the command of the Lord, both to the people, and the rulers he has set over them; to the individual, and to the nation.

Jeremiah 5:25-31 ( KJV ) ²⁵Your iniquities have turned away these things, and your sins have withholden good things from you. ²⁶For among my people are found wicked men: they lay wait, as he that setteth snares; they set a trap, they catch men. ²⁷As a cage is full of birds, so are their houses full of deceit: therefore they are become great, and waxen rich. ²⁸They are waxen fat, they shine: yea, they overpass the deeds of the wicked: they judge not the cause, the cause of the fatherless, yet they prosper; and the right of the needy do they not judge. ²⁹Shall I not visit for these things? saith the LORD: shall not my soul be avenged on such a nation as this? ³⁰A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land; ³¹The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

OT law also dictates that homosexuals and adulterers are to be stoned, to honor the Sabbath, to not take the Lords name in vain and, to worship no gods before Him. Are you arguing that it's the governments duty to execute homosexuals and adulterers, outlaw any activity on Saturday, outlaw speech and, abolish all religions contrary to judeo-Christian beliefs?

Jesus and the disciples picked grain from a field. A privately owned field, not one maintained or regulated by the Roman rulers nor the Jews collectively.

Please address the points made in the OP concerning Jesus' teachings and their relation to social justice.

 

[Drummer4Christ]

Everyone,

Please answer these two questions:

1. When someone is hungry/thirsty/homeless/sick do you feed/clothe/shelter/care for them; or do you tell them to apply for food stamps/section 8/Medicaid?

2. Do you consider your tax liability as tithing?

 

[Drew]

Was it not commanded in the law, that the fields were not to be completely harvested, or the vineyards picked clean, but a portion was to be left to the poor? Was in not commanded in the law that the debts of the poor were to be forgiven at the end of the seventh year? Does not the law speak against usury (charging interest) and taking increase for profit?

You raise a very good point - in the Old Testament, there is clear Biblical precedent of integrating the principle of "wealth re-distribution" into "government".

 

[Drew]

List of most charitable countries - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I reviewed the page, but could find nothing to substantiate this particular assertion from your post:

No developed country approaches American giving. For example, in 1995 (the most recent year for which data are available), Americans gave, per capita, three and a half times as much to causes and charities as the French, seven times as much as the Germans, and 14 times as much as the Italians. Similarly, in 1998, Americans were 15 percent more likely to volunteer their time than the Dutch, 21 percent more likely than the Swiss, and 32 percent more likely than the Germans. These differences are not attributable to demographic characteristics such as education, income, age, sex, or marital status. On the contrary, if we look at two people who are identical in all these ways except that one is European and the other American, the probability is still far lower that the European will volunteer than the American.

Can you please help me out? Do I need to follow a link?

The page does list the most generous nation in terms of donation "per person", and the USA is not in the top 10.

 

[ezrider]

OT law also dictates that homosexuals and adulterers are to be stoned, to honor the Sabbath, to not take the Lords name in vain and, to worship no gods before Him. Are you arguing that it's the governments duty to execute homosexuals and adulterers, outlaw any activity on Saturday, outlaw speech and, abolish all religions contrary to judeo-Christian beliefs?

Jesus and the disciples picked grain from a field. A privately owned field, not one maintained or regulated by the Roman rulers nor the Jews collectively.

Please address the points made in the OP concerning Jesus' teachings and their relation to social justice.

I hesitate to engage you, because I do not play the devil’s game. But, if many of the politically charged right wing Christian fundamentalist had their way that is exactly what the government would be doing. While we don’t execute homosexuals in this country, there are many who have promoted that very idea in other countries. There are many places within this country, that the stores are indeed closed on Sunday. And there is definitely a movement afoot to prevent Islamic mosques from being built, and legislation has been passed in certain Bible belt states out of fear of sharia law. So what was your point other than to obfuscate and ignore the command for the peoples and the nation to relieve to burden of the poor?

You use terms like “social justice†to create a unique classification that you can argue against while conveniently ignoring the idea of justice itself. Jesus condemned the Pharisees for leaving off the weightier matters of the law, that being judgment, mercy and faith. To whom was the judgment? And to whom was the mercy? Was it not to the fatherless, the widow and the poor?

Jesus came preaching and teaching the Kingdom of God, both in word and power, He came teaching compassion and forgiveness. Now, back to Drew’s original point: If as a Christian we believe we should help the less fortunate among us as individuals, then why would you reject that same principle as a collective national body? Are the laws and principles of God written in your heart? Or because you read them in a book do you conveniently apply them when the occasion suites you?

The governmental programs that you bemoan as social justice, were not they implemented because the majority of our collective nation body demanded it at the time? Is it so evil for the nation to carry programs to assist the elderly, the sick and the poor? I find it ironic that you don’t seem to mind the banks charging you 25% interest, or the medical industry making enormous profits off of your sickness, but you draw a line in the sand over food stamps.

What saith the prophet? My people are foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have no understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge. And yet again as the prophet saith: The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priest bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so.

 

[jasoncran]

i was dated a girl on assistance because of a health condition and was a ward of the state. she was able to live but not work. wont go into great detail. i find it odd that said christian ought to support this" sir, we can give you condomns if you two are having sex" ,

i was told this via the phone not once but twice, i told this social worker that i am a christian and i dont have premaritial sex anymore. she didnt believe me at all.

hey buts it social justice right? something God would approve.

 

[Rageprophet]

A Nation of Givers &mdash; The American Magazine

wrong link try this one.

 

[Drew]

Please explain how "the elders and princes of His people" mean "the rich".

That's not really the point. We have a text where a certain class of people are being warned against "oppressing" the poor. It seems very hard to believe that God would inspire this bit of text and not also believe that the wealthy in general should care for the poor materially.

When God refers to "His people" in any context in the OT, He explicitly means the Jews and no one else. There is no point in discussing the notion that rich people become wealthy by exploiting the poor if you are going to distort Scripture to mean something it clearly doesn't to back your claim.

While it is indeed true that "his people" refers to the Jews, surely you are not going to suggest that the guidance and instruction that God offers to the Jews in particular, in respect to matters of "morality" do not apply to us all. Is God leading the Jews into behaviours that are not wise for the rest of us to adopt?

This is what I meant earlier about Murder. God states explicitly that murder is a sin. Nowhere does He explicitly say that not redistributing wealth is a sin.

This is not a very convincing argument. There are, of course, many behaviours that are clearly "good", but are not explicitly identified as "not sin" in the scriptures.

Besides, there are so many texts that endorse the wealthy helping the poor - are you seriously denying this? - that it is more than clear that God's people do indeed have the moral obligation to help the poor.

 

[Drew]

Studying the entire chapter reveals that the behavior of the Israelites (specifically fasting) was displeasing to God and, that if the Jews turn from their wicked ways: "The LORD will guide you always;
he will satisfy your needs"

The Lord, NOT rich people.

The text is what it is!

Is this not the fast which I choose,
To <SUP class=xref value='(M)'>(M)</SUP>loosen the bonds of wickedness,
To undo the bands of the yoke,
And to <SUP class=xref value='(N)'>(N)</SUP>let the oppressed go free
And <SUP class=xref value='(O)'>(O)</SUP>break every yoke?
<SUP class=versenum id=en-NASB-18794>7</SUP> “Is it not to <SUP class=xref value='(P)'>(P)</SUP>divide your bread <SUP class=footnote value='[c]'>[c]</SUP>with the hungry
And <SUP class=xref value='(Q)'>(Q)</SUP>bring the homeless poor into the house;
When you see the <SUP class=xref value='(R)'>(R)</SUP>naked, to cover him;

Of course, God is displeased with the Jews and the way they fast. But, from this snippet above, it is more than clear that at least one of the reasons God is displeased is that they are not seeking justice for the poor.

And let no one pretend that the poor are poor because they are lazy and shiftless!!!

The overwhelming majority of the poor are in that state for reasons substantially beyond their control.

So to seek justice for the poor involves "wealth / power / opportunity" redistribution.

And again, you make this entirely unworkable argument that "its God's job, not ours" to satisfy needs. Surely you must know that you are distorting the meaning of such a statement. Are you expecting God to deposit money in the bank accounts of the poor and needy?

Are you serious?

Who is commended by Jesus for giving a glass of water to the thirsty in the parable of the sheep and goats? God? No. He commends His followers for doing so.

 

[Drew]

A Nation of Givers — The American Magazine

wrong link try this one.

I checked - there is no source cited for the statement you quoted. The readers need to be given some reason to believe that these numbers are "real". There is a citation at the end re the source for two tables, but these tables are not connected to the specific claim you posted.

 

[Drew]

IThe governmental programs that you bemoan as social justice, were not they implemented because the majority of our collective nation body demanded it at the time?

Agree. Those who object to using tax dollars to "re-distribute wealth" often make the manifestly incorrect argument that this is "forced giving".

It is, of course, no such thing. In the United States at least, as in many, many other countries, people vote freely to have their tax dollars used for precisely such purposes.

And thank God for that. The irony is that while so many non-Christians embrace this very pragmatic way to "love their neighbour", there are some Christians who seem to want to deconstruct this important mode for the expression of human compassion.

 

[childeye]

I have read most of your posts Drew. You make clear and convincing arguments. The terminology "redistribution of wealth" is a bad spin on charity. Those who invoke such terms should consider they are being deceived and deceiving others. No doubt it can honestly be said that corruption in government diminishes the results while agreeing with the intent. Why then spin charity however into a bad thing? Properly address the issue forthrightly. There are also good people in government trying to take care of the basic needs of others. A crook lies. Quite voting for the crooks. Whoever gives up the baby is the true Mother. The ones who want to see government fail and undermine it are therefore deceived.

 

[jasoncran]

Agree. Those who object to using tax dollars to "re-distribute wealth" often make the manifestly incorrect argument that this is "forced giving".

It is, of course, no such thing. In the United States at least, as in many, many other countries, people vote freely to have their tax dollars used for precisely such purposes.

And thank God for that. The irony is that while so many non-Christians embrace this very pragmatic way to "love their neighbour", there are some Christians who seem to want to deconstruct this important mode for the expression of human compassion.

sigh, no i dont, i prefer to do it with the body of christ. what the point of church to listen to each other?

haveing been under some of these wornder ful charities and found then not working that well. my church supported that member while she wasnt on disability so why if the govt is going to do it all would a christian give to the chruch?

funny i didnt see anyone comment on my style of assistance disable motorists.

so the poor shouldnt tithe? thats odd, wheres the verses on that. given the poor dont pay rent etc, what bills dont they have? 0. and btw i have known the chrisitn poor give and do just that

something you wont hear as my own is on tanf assistance present. two children paid for by the state and only i said this. get right with the lord and stop having kids out of wedlock with sorry men who wont be dads.

the govt response, heres your control and also go visit planned parenthood. we take care of your kids health that are born. nothing on correction. my daughter does work and isnt lazy but i guess thats' what jesus would tell her.

get pregnant dont marry and the chruch via taxes. will support those children. and i have told men and women where to go to get food here in my town and the govt doesnt even give food. many local churches have men that will:

repair cars
houses
build houses as their a ministry and habitat for humanity

but hey that isnt taxes at work at all.

so when the christian votes and the money is used for war then isnt that also saying he supports war? i think so. i asked that to be adressed.for to vote is to vote by that logic any all things that politician does good or bad.

 

[childeye]

sigh, no i dont, i prefer to do it with the body of christ. what the point of church to listen to each other?

haveing been under some of these wornder ful charities and found then not working that well. my church supported that member while she wasnt on disability so why if the govt is going to do it all would a christian give to the chruch?

funny i didnt see anyone comment on my style of assistance disable motorists.

so the poor shouldnt tithe? thats odd, wheres the verses on that. given the poor dont pay rent etc, what bills dont they have? 0. and btw i have known the chrisitn poor give and do just that

something you wont hear as my own is on tanf assistance present. two children paid for by the state and only i said this. get right with the lord and stop having kids out of wedlock with sorry men who wont be dads.

the govt response, heres your control and also go visit planned parenthood. we take care of your kids health that are born. nothing on correction. my daughter does work and isnt lazy but i guess thats' what jesus would tell her.

get pregnant dont marry and the chruch via taxes. will support those children. and i have told men and women where to go to get food here in my town and the govt doesnt even give food. many local churches have men that will:

repair cars
houses
build houses as their a ministry and habitat for humanity

but hey that isnt taxes at work at all.

so when the christian votes and the money is used for war then isnt that also saying he supports war? i think so. i asked that to be adressed.for to vote is to vote by that logic any all things that politician does good or bad.

There are bad elements in government and bad elements in what are perceived as churches. God sees the hearts and judges. The inclination to despise injustice is available everywhere you turn. Indeed this is the manifestation of sin in men. No one can vote out sin although the deceived try. Every good liar will say, vote for me, I'm not for killing babies and I'm for peace not war. The reason we must return good for evil when we are personally injured is because in seeking to eradicate sin through the broad sweep of legislation we often hurt the innocent. Evil men break the law anyway. Indeed all our attempts to escape the corruption of this world while in this world are vanity. The eternal Light of God belongs to God. We best learn that so we may turn to Him with all our heart, and give up on this trying to prove Him wrong about us.