Solascripture

[Heidi]

you cant be serious.... it would be nice if you could stop dancing around the issues. you dont take the bible at its word in john 6 53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 5

if you are a literary interpreter,if that is the standard that you personally interpret scripture you must be consistent and accept the eucharist. but you are not consistent so we see how you rely on your personal private interpretation

Oh no. Now you're trying to redefine the word "until' just like Bill Clinton tried to redefine the word "is" to pass along his lies also. How does "I didn't eat desert until I finished the main course" mean that I never ate desert? It doesn't because I told you specifically when I ate desert as does Matthew 1:25 tell us specifically when Mary lost her virginity. So since it takes effort to try to twist the meaning in that pasage, then the Catholic's desire to twist it is deliberate and willful. :x


So your foolish attempt to try to twist Matthew 1:25 into the opposite has backfired on you. But that's what happens when you play with the words in the bible which is why the bible tells us not to do that 1 Timothy 6:3-4, "If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarreling about words...'

And You neglected to mention verse 63 in John 6 where Jesus says, "The Spirit gives life, the flesh counts for nothing." That passage is the key to that passage. Jesus is telling us that the indwelling Holy Spirit has to be inside of us because only the Spirit gives us life that lasts.

But i'm sure the Catholics don't understand that either since they don't understand a simple passage like Matthew 1:25. So either the pope is less intelligent than a child who can understand that verse or he is blatantly twisting it to suit his own desires. Neither action speaks well of the pope at all.

So I have no more interest in conversing with someone who has an unhealthy interest in quarreling about words.

 

[francisdesales]

There are many different truths in each scriptural verse. But one thing that is not there; opposite meanings.

Naturally.

And you still haven't answered my question of whether or not I can change your words and claim that my interpretation is correct.


You can change my words, as long as they have the same meaning in the end. There are various words that have similar meaning.

Thus, if I said "I am going to take a stroll"
And you said "Joe is planning on going on a walk"

You have changed my words, but you have not changed the meaning. I would accept your interpretion.

So how do you think God feels when the Catholics claim that Mary was a virgin all her life when God's words says she wasn't? or don't the Catholics care what God thinks?

Nowhere does the Bible says that Mary had other blood children. That is YOUR assumption. The word "until" doesn't mean that a person does something afterwards. Again, you are presuming to know the intent of the Scriptures.

And now that I have answered your question, how about you answer mine that I have asked you long time ago...

Where does the Bible say that it is the sole rule of faith for Christians?

Regards

 

[Veritas]

francisdesales wrote:
Where does the Bible say that it is the sole rule of faith for Christians?

Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word, it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus; so that you may know the exact truth about the things you have been taught." Luke 1:1-4

"Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other." 1 Corinthians 4:6

"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

"from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus." 2 Timothy 3:15


"if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you; that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; Ephesians 3:2-5

"For we write nothing else to you than what you read and understand, and I hope you will understand until the end" 2 Corinthians 1:13

...these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name. John 20:30-31

For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. (Romans 15:4)

These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.1 John 1:4

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 John 5:13

Yes, there was oral spoken before...but it's already been WRITTEN down. Thats how we know!

"This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you in which I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles." 2 Peter 3:1-2

Jesus NEVER refered to oral tradition to prove or defend truth:

"Have you not read" Matthew 12:3

"have you not read in the Law" Matthew 12:5

"Did you never read in the Scriptures" Matthew 21:42

"The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him" Matthew 26:24

Jesus expects us to read it and get it.

"What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?" Luke 10:26

But Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God. Matthew 22:29

"What then is this that is written: 'The stone which the builders rejected, This became the chief corner stone'? Luke 20:17

Jesus replies to the devil during the temptation:

It is written.. Matthew 4:4

It is also written.. Matthew 4:7

Away from me, Satan! For it is written.. Matthew 4:10

The only time Jesus referred to Oral traditions, was when condemning it:

'But in vain do they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.' "Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men." He was also saying to them, "You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. ..... thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that." Mark 7:7-13

Adding oral tradition is adding to the Word of God, and we know that:

"You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you." Deuteronomy 4:2

"Every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar." Proverbs 30:5-6

 

[jgredline]

Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word, it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus; so that you may know the exact truth about the things you have been taught." Luke 1:1-4

"Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other." 1 Corinthians 4:6

"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

"from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus." 2 Timothy 3:15


"if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you; that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; Ephesians 3:2-5

"For we write nothing else to you than what you read and understand, and I hope you will understand until the end" 2 Corinthians 1:13

...these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name. John 20:30-31

For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. (Romans 15:4)

These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.1 John 1:4

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 John 5:13

Yes, there was oral spoken before...but it's already been WRITTEN down. Thats how we know!

"This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you in which I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles." 2 Peter 3:1-2

Jesus NEVER refered to oral tradition to prove or defend truth:

"Have you not read" Matthew 12:3

"have you not read in the Law" Matthew 12:5

"Did you never read in the Scriptures" Matthew 21:42

"The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him" Matthew 26:24

Jesus expects us to read it and get it.

"What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?" Luke 10:26

But Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God. Matthew 22:29

"What then is this that is written: 'The stone which the builders rejected, This became the chief corner stone'? Luke 20:17

Jesus replies to the devil during the temptation:

It is written.. Matthew 4:4

It is also written.. Matthew 4:7

Away from me, Satan! For it is written.. Matthew 4:10

The only time Jesus referred to Oral traditions, was when condemning it:

'But in vain do they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.' "Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men." He was also saying to them, "You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. ..... thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that." Mark 7:7-13

Adding oral tradition is adding to the Word of God, and we know that:

"You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you." Deuteronomy 4:2

"Every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar." Proverbs 30:5-6

:smt023

 

[francisdesales]

First of all, was it necessary to use the big letters and red font? But anyway, I have found Sola Scriptura nowhere in anything you list:

Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word, it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus; so that you may know the exact truth about the things you have been taught." Luke 1:1-4

Where does that say anything about Sacred Scriptures being the sole rule of faith? "Luke" said that he compiled an account from eyewitnesses - but it doesn't follow that the witnesses could no longer give an accurate statement. The written does not abrogate the oral. The purpose of the writing is to compile it, not make it the ONLY source. He never says that the witnesses are no longer valid. And of course, when "Luke" wrote this, he never called it Scriptures.

"Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other." 1 Corinthians 4:6

You are now casting out AT LEAST 2nd Corinthians, and probably over half of the entire New Testament by making that statement fit to Sola Scriptura. Think about it...

"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

If I had a dollar for every Protestant who tossed that at me, not realizing that NOWHERE, it says that the Scriptures are the ONLY manner of "teaching, correcting, and training in righteousness". Ephesians 4:11-13 gives ANOTHER means of PERFECTING the Christian - and the Bible is not mentioned...

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Eph 4:11-12

Back to 2 Tim, I agree with it, the Scriptures ARE useful. But useful does not mean ONLY source of teaching. Another point that I would like to make is that Paul is refering Timothy to the OLD TESTAMENT - most likely the Septuagint. Not the New Testament - since Paul refers Timothy to Scriptures he read WHILE A YOUTH!

"from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus." 2 Timothy 3:15

Just addressed. Timothy was reading the Scriptures between 30-40 AD. Which Scriptures were around?

"if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you; that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; Ephesians 3:2-5

Where does that say anything about Sola Scriptura? It only points out that Paul wrote something that was a great mystery. Again, where does Paul say "from now on, ignore my oral teachings"?

"For we write nothing else to you than what you read and understand, and I hope you will understand until the end" 2 Corinthians 1:13

This just says that Paul writes things that the Corinthians understand! The NIV renders this verse:

For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand

How exactly does that prove Sola Scriptura?

...these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name. John 20:30-31

The reason for writing the teachings down was because writings are USEFUL in teaching, as Paul wrote to Timothy. Writings SUPPLEMENT the teachings ALREADY GIVEN. John is not saying that he writes because no one understands the Gospel unless they read it!!! John HIMSELF tells us that everything that Jesus did was not written down, and later in his epistles, he tells us that he looks forward to seeing his communities in PERSON, RATHER THAN WRITING BY LETTER!

For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. (Romans 15:4)

Similar to the 2 Timothy verse. Nowhere stating that the Bible is the SOLE means of instruction.

These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.1 John 1:4

Apparently, they ALREADY were undergoing joy - the Scripture in this case is completing it. Thus, there is something else that brings the joy of the Gospel to men. Again, Solo is not here, either...

"This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you in which I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles." 2 Peter 3:1-2

Spoken. What more do you want me to say...

Jesus NEVER refered to oral tradition to prove or defend truth:

NEVER!!!! Wow. I know of two places off the top of my head...

How about Matthew 23:3. Point to me WHERE is the Chair of Moses in the Old Testament that Jesus refers to. I note that the Apostles seem to know what He is refering to, since they don't say "What is that, Lord? I don't remember that in the Bible?"

Here is the second one... And Jesus tells them... Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: Mat 5:27

And THEN Jesus says...But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Jesus Christ refers to an orally given teaching and GIVES an oral teaching.

"Did you never read in the Scriptures" Matthew 21:42

Jesus expects us to read it and get it.

What about people who can't read? Are they condemned to hell? What about kids? How about the blind? Jesus is not telling us that unless we read, we are in danger of not being saved. Jesus is refering to the written authority of the Scriptures, which was accepted as the Word of God - BUT NOT the ONLY rule of authority. I have given you one above in Matthew 23:3. There are many more oral teachings that had the force of law among the Jews.

Jesus replies to the devil during the temptation:

It is written.. Matthew 4:4

And the devil responds with ANOTHER Scripture. This is pretty good evidence that the Bible can be misinterpreted and mislead people, since the devil can twist it. Oh, there is another verse like that, as well...

even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction 2 Peter 3:15-16

That goes to show you how much the "unlearned and unstable" can twist Scriptures - a problem that LEADS TO DESTRUCTION!!!

IMPROPER SCRIPTURE READING LEADS TO DESTRUCTION. That in of itself makes Sola Scriptura impossible, as God wouldn't present a Bible that can kill us without any guidelines or knowledge whether we have interpreted it correctly or not...

Adding oral tradition the the mix is adding to the Word of God, and we know that:

"You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you." Deuteronomy 4:2

Please... This is worse than the Corinthian claim above!!!

"Every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar." Proverbs 30:5-6

Does God's Word come to man only by letter? Hardly. I don't find a single passage of a letter coming from heaven to mankind, with the exception of the Decalogue to Moses. God reveals Himself through Prophets who preach God Word through oral words. And in the end, God's Word is the Son of God made flesh, not made into paper.

Thanks for providing me another opportunity to show to all that Sola Scriptura is a false teaching and NOT found ANYWHERE in the Bible. Not even ONE verse tells us that the written word is the ONLY source of our faith.

Regards

 

[Veritas]

[quote:6250e]Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word, it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus; so that you may know the exact truth about the things you have been taught." Luke 1:1-4

francisdesales wrote:
Where does that say anything about Sacred Scriptures being the sole rule of faith? "Luke" said that he compiled an account from eyewitnesses - but it doesn't follow that the witnesses could no longer give an accurate statement. The written does not abrogate the oral. The purpose of the writing is to compile it, not make it the ONLY source. He never says that the witnesses are no longer valid. And of course, when "Luke" wrote this, he never called it Scriptures.[/quote:6250e]

...written... ...exact truth... You're not arguing with me anymore, but the Word.

[quote:6250e]"Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other." 1 Corinthians 4:6

francisdesales wrote:
You are now casting out AT LEAST 2nd Corinthians, and probably over half of the entire New Testament by making that statement fit to Sola Scriptura. Think about it...

francisdesales wrote:
Just addressed. Timothy was reading the Scriptures between 30-40 AD. Which Scriptures were around?[/quote:6250e]

Do you think God didn't know what was going to be in the Bible? The verse is there, God knew, therfore it stands for the entire Bible.

[quote:6250e]"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

francisdesales wrote:
If I had a dollar for every Protestant who tossed that at me, not realizing that NOWHERE, it says that the Scriptures are the ONLY manner of "teaching, correcting, and training in righteousness". Ephesians 4:11-13 gives ANOTHER means of PERFECTING the Christian - and the Bible is not mentioned...

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Eph 4:11-12[/quote:6250e]

They can't say and do whatever they like ...Prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers, saints - all must line up with the what the Word says or their not preaching the Word.

[quote:6250e]"if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you; that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; Ephesians 3:2-5

francisdesales wrote:
Where does that say anything about Sola Scriptura? It only points out that Paul wrote something that was a great mystery. Again, where does Paul say "from now on, ignore my oral teachings"?
[/quote:6250e]

All we need to know to have insight into the mystery of Christ is written down. Again, you're argueing with the Word, not me.

[quote:6250e]...these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name. John 20:30-31

The reason for writing the teachings down was because writings are USEFUL in teaching, as Paul wrote to Timothy. Writings SUPPLEMENT the teachings ALREADY GIVEN. John is not saying that he writes because no one understands the Gospel unless they read it!!! John HIMSELF tells us that everything that Jesus did was not written down, and later in his epistles, he tells us that he looks forward to seeing his communities in PERSON, RATHER THAN WRITING BY LETTER![/quote:6250e]

What does it say? Anything about us not being able to believe because there is something missing in Scripture? You've read quite a bit into this.

[quote:6250e]These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.1 John 1:4

francisdesales wrote:
Apparently, they ALREADY were undergoing joy - the Scripture in this case is completing it. Thus, there is something else that brings the joy of the Gospel to men. Again, Solo is not here, either...[/quote:6250e]

The something else is The Holy Spirit.

[quote:6250e]"This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you in which I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles." 2 Peter 3:1-2

Spoken. What more do you want me to say...[/quote:6250e]

...And written down... what more do you want me to say?

[quote:6250e]Veritas wrote
Jesus NEVER refered to oral tradition to prove or defend truth:

francisdesales wrote:
NEVER!!!! Wow. I know of two places off the top of my head...[/quote:6250e]

Firstly, Spoken words from what is written in Bible is NOT oral tradition.

Secondly, some traditions that Jesus mentions are indeed not found in Scriptures, which is exactly why Jesus mentioned them. The traditions were incorrect and HE corrected them. An example is Matthew 5:43

Thirdly, the reference you made to to Matthew 23:2 is weak. Jesus is using a figure of speech.

[quote:6250e]"Did you never read in the Scriptures" Matthew 21:42

Veritas wrote:
Jesus expects us to read it and get it.

What about people who can't read? Are they condemned to hell? What about kids? How about the blind? Jesus is not telling us that unless we read, we are in danger of not being saved. [/quote:6250e]

I'm sure someone can read it to them. Again, reading the Bible is NOT oral tradition.

francisdesales wrote:
Jesus is refering to the written authority of the Scriptures, which was accepted as the Word of God - BUT NOT the ONLY rule of authority. I have given you one above in Matthew 23:3. There are many more oral teachings that had the force of law among the Jews.

I really disagree with you here if you are saying that these have TRUE authority. As I mentioned before, Jesus corrected these Jews of their "many more oral teachings". He did this quite a bit.

[quote:6250e]Veritas wrote:
Jesus replies to the devil during the temptation:

It is written.. Matthew 4:4

francisdesales wrote:
And the devil responds with ANOTHER Scripture. This is pretty good evidence that the Bible can be misinterpreted and mislead people, since the devil can twist it. Oh, there is another verse like that, as well...

even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction 2 Peter 3:15-16

That goes to show you how much the "unlearned and unstable" can twist Scriptures - a problem that LEADS TO DESTRUCTION!!!

IMPROPER SCRIPTURE READING LEADS TO DESTRUCTION. That in of itself makes Sola Scriptura impossible, as God wouldn't present a Bible that can kill us without any guidelines or knowledge whether we have interpreted it correctly or not...[/quote:6250e]

The Holy Spirit guides us to the correct teaching.

I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. As for you, the anointing you recieved from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit - just as it has taught you, remain in Him. 1 John 2:26-27


Simple "reason" aides us as well. "Reason" is based off of Truth, (both are absolute).

[quote:6250e]Veritas wrote:
Adding oral tradition the the mix is adding to the Word of God, and we know that:

"You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you." Deuteronomy 4:2

francisdesales wrote:
Please... This is worse than the Corinthian claim above!!![/quote:6250e]

And you apparently lack the faith that God knew exactly what was going to be in the Bible. (Or, hopefully, just haven't thought about that.) If God does know, that verse applies to all of it.

[quote:6250e]"Every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar." Proverbs 30:5-6

Does God's Word come to man only by letter? Hardly. I don't find a single passage of a letter coming from heaven to mankind, with the exception of the Decalogue to Moses. God reveals Himself through Prophets who preach God Word through oral words. And in the end, God's Word is the Son of God made flesh, not made into paper.[/quote:6250e]

You didn't really address the verse.

But I will reply that God's Word is written down for us, and God speaks to us through it with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

 

[stranger]

More on Scripture alone,

My definition of scripture alone is a radical one. The package of what I call 'scripture alone' contains:

NASB Bible
NASB Concordance

NOTHING MORE, that's it.

If I add to it the Westminster Confession of Faith the package is no longer scripture alone. If I take the Westminister Confession of Faith away the package reverts to scripture alone. If you are worried about the concordance - it is only to help me find words and verses that would otherwise take forever.

Many years ago I went to a Church and the out of retirement caretaker Pastor said he believed in scripture alone. When I got to know the man better I discovered that he prepared ALL his sermons straight out of the (?the interpreters bible or other equivalent commentary series) literally. This was the beginning of my suspicions about what 'scripture alone' isn't. Later this was confirmed 100 fold when I discovered Pastor after Pastor taking their sermons straight out of commentaries. So I went in the opposite direction - hence the shift to the radical definition above.

My fellow protestants - there are many definitions of 'scripture alone' in practice but not everything people call 'scripture alone' is actually 'scripture alone', at least not by the definition I have offered. No doubt that others have also come to similar realizations.

 

[Solo]

Revelation details specific instructions by letter from Heaven to Seven Churches. I do not see the Roman Catholic Cult mentioned.

 

[Heidi]

Revelation details specific instructions by letter from Heaven to Seven Churches. I do not see the Roman Catholic Cult mentioned.

:

 

[biblecatholic]

i understand now that there are different interpretations on what exactly "sola scripture" means , do most people believe it means the bible alone and nothing else as the term means?
or do most believe it means that the bible is the final authority. or something else. what is the most accepted interpretation on that term.
thanks

 

[Solo]

God Almighty is the sole authority over man, and He reveals Himself through the written Word of God authored by holy men inspired by the Holy Spirit. The interpretation of the Word of God is not interpreted to man by man, but is interpreted to men by the Holy Spirit.

 

[francisdesales]

Revelation details specific instructions by letter from Heaven to Seven Churches. I do not see the Roman Catholic Cult mentioned.

You must be joking.

Revelations was written to communities in modern day Turkey. According to you, there were only seven communities - so Paul was writing to WHOM when he wrote to the Romans and the Corinthians and the Thessalonians? Did the church in Jerusalem pack up and move to Philadelphia?

Your logic removes every Christian church except for the seven mentioned in Revelation. Is that what you are claiming???

 

[francisdesales]

God Almighty is the sole authority over man, and He reveals Himself through the written Word of God authored by holy men inspired by the Holy Spirit. The interpretation of the Word of God is not interpreted to man by man, but is interpreted to men by the Holy Spirit.

Sure, ya betcha...

Apparently, there must be a "spirit" telling all these Protestants to read the Bible differently, because you can't agree on virtually any topic of Scriptures...

 

[Solo]

Revelation details specific instructions by letter from Heaven to Seven Churches. I do not see the Roman Catholic Cult mentioned.

You must be joking.

Revelations was written to communities in modern day Turkey. According to you, there were only seven communities - so Paul was writing to WHOM when he wrote to the Romans and the Corinthians and the Thessalonians? Did the church in Jerusalem pack up and move to Philadelphia?

Your logic removes every Christian church except for the seven mentioned in Revelation. Is that what you are claiming???

So you agree that the Roman Catholic "church" is not "The Church" since the Scriptures mention seven other significant CHURCHES at the time John was banished to the Isle of Patmos around 90 A.D.. This aligns with the Mainstream Christian view of who the Church is.

Also, the comment that I made concerning the seven churches receiveing letters from Heaven was to reprove your previous post that stated that you "don't find a single passage of a letter coming from heaven to mankind, with the exception of the Decalogue to Moses."

Does God's Word come to man only by letter? Hardly. I don't find a single passage of a letter coming from heaven to mankind, with the exception of the Decalogue to Moses. God reveals Himself through Prophets who preach God Word through oral words. And in the end, God's Word is the Son of God made flesh, not made into paper.

Although you may have ignored that a book was written to give to the seven churches instead of a letter, but the point of contention of this debate is God's written inspiration. Let me share with you the truth:

• 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. Revelation 1:11

The Bible is explicit throughout that the written word is the manner in which God reveals Himself to man. How many times is it stated, "It is written" in the New Testament?

The statement "It is written" is found 63 times in the New Testament, and 17 times in the Old Testament.

Note: I understand why you do not adhere to the understanding of the written revelation of the Word of God. It goes against the teachings of the Roman Catholic church, and the statement, "It is written," only occurs in the Deuterocanonical Apocropha books 1 time:

• 1 Esdras 1:11
  And according to the several dignities of the fathers, before the people, to offer to the Lord, as it is written in the book of Moses: and thus did they in the morning.

Ironic that it is in reference to the book of Moses of which Jesus Christ alluded to (Mark 12:26).

 

[francisdesales]

So you agree that the Roman Catholic "church" is not "The Church" since the Scriptures mention seven other significant CHURCHES at the time John was banished to the Isle of Patmos around 90 A.D.. This aligns with the Mainstream Christian view of who the Church is.

The "church" that John was speaking of was the particular communities in Turkey, not Rome. We know that Rome was a church community as well, since Paul wrote to it in the 60's. I do not think that the Catholic Church teaches that it was a totally monolithic organization fully developed as she was in, say 1500 AD. Just like any "body", it grows from infancy into adulthood. At the turn of the first century, I see the Church at 100 AD as a confederation of communities loosely held together by common teachings, a common faith, unified by one loaf, under one Lord. In time, the Church became more monarchial even before Constantine. I don't think anyone familiar with Church history would say that an episcopal, monarchial Church existed in 33 AD as in 150 AD. There was a development that was led by the Holy Spirit.

Also, the comment that I made concerning the seven churches receiveing letters from Heaven was to reprove your previous post that stated that you "don't find a single passage of a letter coming from heaven to mankind, with the exception of the Decalogue to Moses.

Revelation came to the churches by letter from John. John received revelation from God, just like the prophets. The letter of Revelation was not from heaven. It was from John's experience of his vision.

The Bible is explicit throughout that the written word is the manner in which God reveals Himself to man. How many times is it stated, "It is written" in the New Testament?

"It is written" is a reference to the Sacred Scripture. Scriptures are authoritative for the first Christians. I have never denied that. What I deny is that it is the ONLY authoritative item for Jews OR Christians. The written word is NOT the only way God reveals Himself. Throughout the first 20 years, didn't the Apostles preach the Word orally? And the Bible simply doesn't cover everything that we do or believe as Christians. It was not intended to abrogate the Apostles or their successors. The Bible never makes such a statement. Yes, it is an authority. But only within the teachings of the Church.

I think even you must admit that people can read the Bible in many different ways. That is not how one finds truth. God left an authoritative body of men with the power to bind and loosen. Be thankful that we can know the truth.

Regards

 

[Solo]

Fran,
Keep posting against what is written in the Scriptures. You are ignorantly backing up all that I am warning folks about concerning the Roman Catholic "church".

 

[francisdesales]

Fran,
Keep posting against what is written in the Scriptures. You are ignorantly backing up all that I am warning folks about concerning the Roman Catholic "church".

Can you be a bit more specific?

 

[Vic C.]

Revelation came to the churches by letter from John. John received revelation from God, just like the prophets. The letter of Revelation was not from heaven. It was from John's experience of his vision.

Hi Joe,

Take no offense, but the Book of Revelation was never the RCC's forte'. The very first verse tells us who's revelation it was and where it came from:

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

It was never John's revelation.

Also, John was told what to write to the seven churches by Jesus Himself. Since Jesus had already ascended to Heaven, it is safe to say the letters were from Heaven.

Rev 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write;

Rev 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write;

Rev 2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write;

Rev 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write;

Rev 2:24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira,

Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write;

Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write;

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write;

This is scripture and from my point of view, this isn't even debatable. But... if anyone cares to debate Revelation, they may take it to the End Times Forum.

 

[biblecatholic]

Hi Joe,

Take no offense, but the Book of Revelation was never the RCC's forte'. The very first verse tells us who's revelation it was and where it came from:

no offense but you guys cant even agree on what it means with each other. its much more the catholic/orthodox forte' than the 21 century thinking of new churhes





would someone show me where the in the bible that the bible says it is the FINAL authority. now make sure it says its the FINAL authority. im trying to study this issue so a verse or 2 would help

also where in the scriptures does it say which books belong in the bible?a couple verses would help my studies

1 more where does it say in scripture that the gosples were written by the author of the peticullar book? i know its the title and it says the name but where is it in the manuscripts saying, that i so and so wrote this book?

 

[Vic C.]

no offense but you guys cant even agree on what it means with each other. its much more the catholic/orthodox forte' than the 21 century thinking of new churhes

You're not Joe! LOL But thanks for bringing it back on topic. 8-)