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[_ Old Earth _] Some More Garbage

It's so we would not be fooled by Satan's lie of evolution. There is not a string of change, each is it's own kind. Always was always will be. Please check out the Duck billed platypus....

We have fossils of primitive platypuses. They evolved.

Fourth, In my opinion, any one who believes God can create this huge universe and all it's wonders..... WHY would he want to do it over the time frame given by the "theory"

Why would He do it according to our idea of "right time?" Time is not an issue for God, so billions of years are no issue for him. We often want Him to fit our conceptions of what's right, but He does things on His own schedule, not ours.
 
We have fossils of primitive platypuses. They evolved.



Why would He do it according to our idea of "right time?" Time is not an issue for God, so billions of years are no issue for him. We often want Him to fit our conceptions of what's right, but He does things on His own schedule, not ours.

Why would God's book say it was done in six days while he rested on the seventh and then model the Jewish week in the same way- work six days- rest one day, if it took billions of years.

It is very clear in Genesis. It states "There was evening and there was morning.... the first day", then "there was evening and there was morning... the second day" and continues for the remaining days.

With all the theologians in the world arguing over complex Biblical doctrine and text and documents.... Even a 1st grader could understand that this text is very clear and was in fact a literal six day period of creation, as we have now, with one day of rest......

Why does the moon only have inches of dust and not several yards of dust like the scientists expected?

Why, even Darwin asked, is there no fossils showing transitions from one stage to the next. Why are they not here at one time and then, suddenly they are here?

What, if we are to examine what you say is true and the Platypus evolved...what from? Its a mammal that lays eggs, has a duck bill that is highly sensitive to be used in electrolocation which no other creature has. It has powerful venom in hooks in its hind legs (males only and a unique venom of three different proteins unique to the platypus), otter like feet on the front while back feet are tucked in while it swims, it has a beaver like tail that is covered in fur not scales and is used as a rudder no to propel the animal while it swims as a beaver does. The eggs it lays spend more time inside the mother than they do outside before hatching. A chicken egg stays in the chicken for about 24 hours compared to 28 days inside the mother platypus.

The only difference in the million year old fossil of this mammal and its present day creature is that the modern one has no teeth. This is not evolving forward but de-evolving.

It is a well known fact that any system, when left uncontrolled and to its own functioning will move from organized to disorganized not the other way around which is what evolution would have us believe.

God does do things on His own schedual and He made it quite clear what that was..." In the beginning God created"......and it took seven literal days.
 
Why would God's book say it was done in six days while he rested on the seventh and then model the Jewish week in the same way- work six days- rest one day, if it took billions of years.

Christians, a long time ago, realized that these weren't literal days, but rather categories of creation. Obviously, mornings and evenings with no Sun to have them, means that changing the story to a literal history would be absurd. Even a first grader would realize that.

Why does the moon only have inches of dust and not several yards of dust like the scientists expected?

Common misconception. In fact, the density of cosmic dust in our part of the solar system has been measured and it means the moon gains about 48 tons of it per day, or enough to add about 1.5 inches every 4.5 billion years.

Why, even Darwin asked, is there no fossils showing transitions from one stage to the next.

There are many, many such transitions known today, from the fossil record. Would you like to learn about some of them?

What, if we are to examine what you say is true and the Platypus evolved...what from?

From more primitive mammals that evolved from therapsid reptiles.

Its a mammal that lays eggs

Reptilian eggs, which is what you'd expect from a primitive mammal that evolved from reptiles.

, has a duck bill

No. Duck bill:
;
AC_Mallard_Duck%20bill.jpg

A hard, insensitive beak rather narrow and lacking much sensory ability.

Platypus "bill"
db_p_l_0311.jpg

Soft, leathery skin over the jaw, which are loaded with sensory fibers. More like the mouthparts of some early therapsids.

The only difference in the million year old fossil of this mammal and its present day creature is that the modern one has no teeth.

And it's smaller, and more adapted to an aquatic existence. It's more evolved from the primitive mammalian form. It also has the complex reptilian limb girdle, and a cloaca like reptiles. An interesting transitional form, pretty much what you'd expect for a group that was intermediate between reptiles and modern mammals.

This is not evolving forward but de-evolving.

There is no "de-evolving." The modern platypus is better adapted for its way of life than the more primitive ones that gave rise to the modern version. Incidentally, the modern platypus still has genes for teeth, but they don't develop very far, and then are gone in the adults.

It is a well known fact that any system, when left uncontrolled and to its own functioning will move from organized to disorganized not the other way around which is what evolution would have us believe.

You think hurricanes are designed? Seriously? They are highly complex systems that are formed only by gravity, heat, humidity, and the rotation of the Earth.

God does do things on His own schedual and He made it quite clear what that was..." In the beginning God created"......and it took seven literal days.

Not if you're willing to accept His word as it is.
 
You mean accept scientists words as they are.. I'm thinking the Lords going to have a bone to pick with you calling his word absurd..

tob
 
You mean accept scientists words as they are..

Wrong. Even Evangelical Protestants historically realized that the Earth must be very old:

But if you will look in the first chapter of Genesis, you will see there more particularly set forth that peculiar operation of power upon the universe which was put forth by the Holy Spirit; you will then discover what was his special work. In Ge 1:2, we read, “And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.” We do not know how remote the period of the creation of this globe may be—certainly many millions of years before the time of Adam. Our planet has passed through various stages of existence, and different kinds of creatures have lived on its surface, all of which have been fashioned by God.
C.H. Spurgeon

YE creationism is the invention of the Seventh-Day Adventists, in the first part of the 20th century.

I'm thinking the Lords going to have a bone to pick with you calling his word absurd..

Ellen G. White is not the Lord.

And His people have known for a long time that the Earth is very old.
 
I am continually shocked at Christians that believe the farce of evolution. First, evolution takes more faith than Creation and second it ignores the very words of the scripture that is God breathed.

If you want to believe that the first verses are not describing literal 24 hour "days" then... where the tribes of Israel in the desert for 40 years, was Goliath that tall, did the earth stop spinning when Moses held up his hands to keep his army winning, Were Adam and all the people of that time living that many actual years, was Christ in the grave for three days and eventually you may ask, did He really die or just go comatose, if He died did He rise again....

Taking some parts of the Bible as they are and others as YOU want is very dangerous.

God spoke this universe into being and after six days it was finished and complete with animals, trees, flowers, birds, oceans, fish, whales, and MAN.

Some parts of the Bible are difficult to understand and some are written in poetry or what some may seem like riddles. However, the first books of this great, continually best selling book that will never ever be lost or destroyed, the first verses are clear, simple, direct and true.

IF one part of the Bible is a lie... the whole book would be worth...nothing and we are all lost.
 
I am continually shocked at Christians that believe the farce of evolution. First, evolution takes more faith than Creation and second it ignores the very words of the scripture that is God breathed.

If you want to believe that the first verses are not describing literal 24 hour "days" then... where the tribes of Israel in the desert for 40 years, was Goliath that tall, did the earth stop spinning when Moses held up his hands to keep his army winning, Were Adam and all the people of that time living that many actual years, was Christ in the grave for three days and eventually you may ask, did He really die or just go comatose, if He died did He rise again....

Taking some parts of the Bible as they are and others as YOU want is very dangerous.

God spoke this universe into being and after six days it was finished and complete with animals, trees, flowers, birds, oceans, fish, whales, and MAN.

Some parts of the Bible are difficult to understand and some are written in poetry or what some may seem like riddles. However, the first books of this great, continually best selling book that will never ever be lost or destroyed, the first verses are clear, simple, direct and true.

IF one part of the Bible is a lie... the whole book would be worth...nothing and we are all lost.

God spoke this universe into being and after six days it was finished and complete with animals, trees, flowers, birds, oceans, fish, whales, and MAN.

Gday Jack,

Forgetting about evolution for a minute I have a suggesting about how the 6 literal days in Genesis may not necessarily imply 6* 24 hour days. There's ideas throughout the Bible which include many different time periods to show Yahweh uses cyclic "seasons" for some reason. The Author of Genesis 1 may have used 6 literal days to depict this cyclic method of Yahweh without necessarily meaning He craeted in 6 literal days if you get my drift. If the Earth is billions of years old it in no way detracts from Yahweh being the creator and the Bible being accurate.
 
I am continually shocked at Christians that believe the farce of evolution.

It's directly observed. You might as well be shocked that Christians believe gravity. In fact, we don't know for sure why gravity works, but we have a very good idea of why evolution works.

First, evolution takes more faith than Creation

You have it backwards. Science requires evidence, not faith. As a scientist why he accepts evolution. He'll cite evidence. As a Christian why he accepts creation. He'll cite his faith in God. As a scientist who is a Christian why he accepts both, he'll show you that there is no conflict between God and His creation.

and second it ignores the very words of the scripture that is God breathed.

Once you understand science and Scripture, you will see that they do not conflict at all.

If you want to believe that the first verses are not describing literal 24 hour "days"

As the early Christians noted, it is absurd to have mornings and evenings without a Sun. And of course, "yom" has quite a number of meanings in the Bible, only occasionally actually meaning a 24 hour day.

then... where the tribes of Israel in the desert for 40 years, was Goliath that tall, did the earth stop spinning when Moses held up his hands to keep his army winning,

Actually, if the world stopped spinning, everything that wasn't tied down (and a lot of things that were) would have flown off the Earth at supersonic speeds. Momentum, you know. And of course, God didn't say that He stopped the Earth from spinning. To the Bronze Age Israelites that would have made no sense at all. The account has the Sun stopping in the sky, which was consistent with the beliefs of the people of the time.

Were Adam and all the people of that time living that many actual years

Unlikely. Most likely, someone later misunderstood accounting of dates. Miracles are always possible, but the consistent accounting of long lives is more likely due to someone trying to fit the narrative in the best possible way, to time actually experienced.

was Christ in the grave for three days and eventually you may ask, did He really die or just go comatose, if He died did He rise again....

The fact that God does most things using nature, doesn't prevent Him from doing a miracle. But, as in the case of the Resurrection, He doesn't do it because He has to do it that way. It's to teach us something.

Taking some parts of the Bible as they are and others as YOU want is very dangerous.

This is why YE creationism is such a dangerous doctrine. It will not only lead you farther from Him, it will tend to damage or prevent faith in others who know that this new belief cannot possibly be true.

IF one part of the Bible is a lie... the whole book would be worth...nothing and we are all lost.

And that is the real harm from YE creationism. It will have much to answer for at Judgement.
 
Gday Jack,

Forgetting about evolution for a minute I have a suggesting about how the 6 literal days in Genesis may not necessarily imply 6* 24 hour days. There's ideas throughout the Bible which include many different time periods to show Yahweh uses cyclic "seasons" for some reason. The Author of Genesis 1 may have used 6 literal days to depict this cyclic method of Yahweh without necessarily meaning He craeted in 6 literal days if you get my drift. If the Earth is billions of years old it in no way detracts from Yahweh being the creator and the Bible being accurate.

If the earth was billions of years old, there would be much more dust on the moon than there is. Scientists where genuinely surprised at how little dust was on the moons surface. This is why they designed the lunar lander with such long legs.

Yes, the second verse could have "billions of years" before He created light and separated it from darkness and "there was evening and there was morning" the first DAY. Why though. Why have billions of years? For what reason?

To evolve all the creatures... Really? Then state emphatically that each type of creature was created in their own KIND and man was not made in his own KIND but in the IMAGE OF GOD.....I think not. This is simple as simple, We were created and done so in a purposeful, direct manner with solid intentions.

IT is clear that the writer is penning this while inspired by the Holy Spirit, as all scripture is, so the blatantly obvious "there was evening and there was morning, the first day" is screaming... an actual day.
 
"It's directly observed."

It is not directly observed. There is not one fossil record of proof of transition stages. Piltdown man and Lucy where both proven as hoax's. Evolution is still a Theory as theories cannot be proven. When they are proven they become a LAW.

"Science requires evidence"

Exactly. And, since Evolution is still a theory, it lacks Evidence and Proof. The notion that my daughter or son, or a humming bird or the complex workings of a helicopter are all the culmination of something happening BY CHANCE takes far more faith than believing in Christ. Darwin had very limited knowledge of biology compared to what we know now. He was unaware of the complexity of Proteins that were supposed to be EXISTING in order for the life to spontaneously show up. He also thought a cell was just a blob. He was unaware of the intricate workings of even the simplest cell components and their symbiotic function that makes every cell and every different kind of cell work. Not only that, but the vast amount of information contained in every single cell no matter what kind of cell it is, has all the blueprint information for the creature it is part of....

To say that the first cell to form came from proteins, which are so complex on there own, suddenly existed and then formed a cell with Ribosomes, mitochondria, vacuoles, cytoplasm, endoplasmic reticulum, and the nucleus with the DNA. That takes enormous FAITH.

"Once you understand science and Scripture, you will see that they do not conflict at all."

Well we agree here. However I believe literal as it is stated in the text. You don't believe "there was evening and there was morning... the first day" You also don't seem to believe that the sun refused to set and therefore the earth stopped spinning while Moses' troops won the battle. You also don't believe that when the bible states how long Noah lived, Methuselah lived, Adam lived.... to be true.

The biblical account of creation, it's timing and the fact that God created each animal perfectly developed is the truth, in my opinion.

We will never agree on this.
 
Barbarian observes:
It's directly observed.

It is not directly observed.

It is constantly. There are a number of speciations we've been lucky enough to be watching at the right time. And the evolution of a new digestive organ in a population of Adriatic lizards is another example. So is the observed evolution of a new bacterium capable of digesting nylon. Lots of that.

There is not one fossil record of proof of transition stages.

If I could show you a long line of fossils, the difference between each one, less than the variation we see within species today, would you admit that's wrong?

Piltdown man was debunked by evolutionists a long time ago. And Lucy remains a key to our evolution. Would you like to learn more about it?

Evolution is still a Theory

So is gravity. Don't go stepping off any high places, though. Some things are demonstrably true, but unproven. As anyone who was paying attention in 7th grade science knows, there is no "proof" in science. Logical certainty is never possible for science. This is why scientific papers show mathematics and confidence levels.

theories cannot be proven. When they are proven they become a LAW.

No, that's a common misconception. Laws are weaker things than theories.

A law is what scientists expect to see under given circumstances.

A theory is a well-tested idea or set of ideas supported by evidence. Theories differ from laws in that laws and theories both make predictions, but theories also explain why. Hence, Newton's Laws of Motion (which he could not explain) and Newton's Theory of Gravitation, (which he could explain).

"Science requires evidence"
Exactly. And, since Evolution is still a theory, it lacks Evidence and Proof.

See above. No "proof" in science, just higher and higher levels of confidence. And of course, absent evidence, it can't be a theory. It is merely a hypothesis, if it is conceivably testable. If not testable, it's a conjecture.

The notion that my daughter or son, or a humming bird or the complex workings of a helicopter are all the culmination of something happening BY CHANCE takes far more faith than believing in Christ.

Darwin's great discovery was that it doesn't happen by chance. People who think they hate science generally don't know much about it.

Darwin had very limited knowledge of biology compared to what we know now. He was unaware of the complexity of Proteins that were supposed to be EXISTING in order for the life to spontaneously show up.

We now know that amino acids and proteins form abiotically. These existed before life appeared. The Murchison Meteorite, for example, contains them, including some not found in living things on Earth.

He also thought a cell was just a blob. He was unaware of the intricate workings of even the simplest cell components and their symbiotic function that makes every cell and every different kind of cell work. Not only that, but the vast amount of information contained in every single cell no matter what kind of cell it is, has all the blueprint information for the creature it is part of....

Of course he knew that. All scientists knew that the information had to be in there somehow. Ironically, Mendel's discovery cleared up a very difficult problem for Darwin's theory; how do new traits persist in a population long enough to become established? If heredity was like mixing paint (as all biologists in Darwin's time assumed) the new trait would be erased like a drop of red paint in a barrel of white paint. But Mendel showed that heredity was like selecting beads, and the rediscovery of his work led to the general adoption of Darwin's theory by almost all biologists.

To say that the first cell to form came from proteins, which are so complex on there own, suddenly existed and then formed a cell with Ribosomes, mitochondria, vacuoles, cytoplasm, endoplasmic reticulum, and the nucleus with the DNA. That takes enormous FAITH.

Proteins existed before life existed. So did lipids and many other basic molecules of life. Interestingly, the simplest part of a cell is also the one that must have appeared first. The cell membrane in its simplest form is a bilayer of a single phospholipid molecule. And it spontaneously forms vesicles identical to cell membranes.

Barbarian observes:
Once you understand science and Scripture, you will see that they do not conflict at all.

Well we agree here.

No, you don't agree with biology, chemistry, geology and physics. And you don't agree with the orthodox understanding of Scripture.

As Christians, until the Adventists in the 20th century, believed, Genesis is an allegory of creation, with the days of Creation being categories of creation. St. Augustine wrote about this, and no Christian theologian disputed it. Only after Ellen White, the Adventist "Prophetess" came up with a new intrepretation, did evangelicals begin to fall away from the Scriptural account. The creationism proposed at the Scopes Trial, for example, was that including an old Earth and accepted Genesis as it is, an allegorical account.

We will never agree on this.

Doesn't matter. Even if you don't accept His word as it is, you can still be a creationist and be saved. The only harm YE does, is to damage the faith of those who know that it can't possibly be true. Some of them assume YE is orthodoxy, and turn away from Christianity. That is a grave disservice to them and to God, Who is unwilling that any perish.
 
Lucy was monkey bones and the change in the digestive system of a lizard is infinitely different than a lizard changing into a bird. Or a fish turning into a lizard.

You can breed dogs of different breeds to create a different breed of its own but they are still dogs.

"So is gravity"

Why not say so is wind... gravity is a fact. Hold an object above your head, let go, it falls, gravity. Cool.

Take a frog,,, see if it has proof of, over thousands and millions of years, turning into a goat... NO PROOF

"you can still be a creationist and be saved".

Are you serious? WOW I am so relieved now. I, as a believer of the Bible as it was written can be saved. I can now sleep at night.
 
Jack Spratt said:
Why though. Why have billions of years? For what reason?
Not arguing one way or another but "billions of years" to us seems like an extremely long time and that would justify your question but on the other hand, billions of years to God, who is eternal, would be less than an eye blink. It's all in one's perspective.
 
Lucy was monkey bones

Nope. In fact, Lucy walked upright, had no tail, and later finds show that she had feet pretty much just like ours, as well as knees, hips, lower back, and the rest. Would you like me to show you?

and the change in the digestive system of a lizard is infinitely different than a lizard changing into a bird. Or a fish turning into a lizard.

Actually a new digestive organ is a pretty good amount of evolution, and it happened in only a few decades. On the other hand, if a lizard changed into a bird or a fish into a lizard, evolutionary theory would be in big trouble.

Why not say so is wind... gravity is a fact.

So is evolution. The difference is, we know why evolution works. We're still not completely sure about gravity.

Hold an object above your head, let go, it falls, gravity.

Put lizards into a new envirionment, let natural selection take its course, and they evolve a new organ.


Yep.

Take a frog,,, see if it has proof of, over thousands and millions of years, turning into a goat... NO PROOF

You think that's what the theory says? No wonder you hate science. I'd hate it too, if I thought it was like that.

Barbarian observes:
you can still be a creationist and be saved".

Are you serious?

Yep. It's not a salvation issue.

I, as a believer of the Bible as it was written can be saved.

If you were willing to accept it as it is, minus the Adventist changes, it would be better, I think.
 
Not arguing one way or another but "billions of years" to us seems like an extremely long time and that would justify your question but on the other hand, billions of years to God, who is eternal, would be less than an eye blink. It's all in one's perspective.
:goodpost
 
Lucy was monkey bones and the change in the digestive system of a lizard is infinitely different than a lizard changing into a bird. Or a fish turning into a lizard.

You can breed dogs of different breeds to create a different breed of its own but they are still dogs.

"So is gravity"

Why not say so is wind... gravity is a fact. Hold an object above your head, let go, it falls, gravity. Cool.

Take a frog,,, see if it has proof of, over thousands and millions of years, turning into a goat... NO PROOF

"you can still be a creationist and be saved".

Are you serious? WOW I am so relieved now. I, as a believer of the Bible as it was written can be saved. I can now sleep at night.

Jack,
You are the man and I appreciate you telling it like it is. As you indicate - all scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. Keep teaching and correcting those that do not yet know the truth.
 
Nope. In fact, Lucy walked upright, had no tail, and later finds show that she had feet pretty much just like ours, as well as knees, hips, lower back, and the rest. Would you like me to show you?.

No thanks, please spare us.
 
Just wondered. So long as you believe that "monkey" story, you're not going to be able to make a reasonable decision.
 
Jack,
You are the man and I appreciate you telling it like it is. As you indicate - all scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. Keep teaching and correcting those that do not yet know the truth.
Thanks Jay, much appreciated.
 
Just wondered. So long as you believe that "monkey" story, you're not going to be able to make a reasonable decision.


Lucy

This fossil, discovered in Africa in 1974, was widely esteemed by evolutionists and was the subject of some of the most intensive speculation. Recently however, it has been revealed that Lucy (A. afarensis) had an anatomy ideally suited to climbing trees and was no different from other apes we are familiar with. The French scientific journal Science et Vie covered the story in 1999 under the headline “Adieu, Lucy.” One study, performed in 2000, discovered a locking system in Lucy’s forearms enabling it to walk using the knuckles, in the same way as modern-day chimps. In the face of all these findings, many evolutionist experts declared that Lucy could not have been a forerunner of man.
 
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