Some of the best NT verses threatening loss of salvation

[Walpole]

the thing is you and i do not determine that for others - you determine for you whether you

You have thus relegated Christianity to a religion of relativism; whereby it becomes a religion completely subjective where each individual gets to determine for himself what is or is not the Christian faith.

I'm sorry, but this is not Christianity.

 

[Walpole]

I don’t know of any verse that teaches that a born again Christian somehow goes back to being un-born again.


A born again Christian can certainly return to practicing the works of the flesh, rather than living according to the Spirit.


Paul teaches this throughout his letters.


First Paul tells them that if they walk according to the Spirit, they will not fulfill the lustful desires of the flesh.


I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

• of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God

Do you know what the phrase will not inherit the kingdom of God means?


Paul constantly warned of this over and over to all the Churches.

• of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past

JLB

Good post.

One cannot be "un-born again". This is why those who have fallen away and return are not treated as catechumens who must be rebaptized upon returning. Rather, Christians have historically professed "ONE baptism", not multiple baptisms. From her infancy, the Church has dealt with Christians falling away, many of which fell away due to extreme persecution. The fallen away were historically referred to as the lapsi. Their return to communion with God and the Church of Christ was done the same way all sinners are reconciled: via confession.

 

[Truthfrees]

You have thus relegated Christianity to a religion of relativism; whereby it becomes a religion completely subjective where each individual gets to determine for himself what is or is not the Christian faith.

I'm sorry, but this is not Christianity.

actually i have left it in God's hands were it belongs

 

[Walpole]

actually i have left it in God's hands were it belongs

The new atheism: "I believe in God and he agrees with me."

 

[Truthfrees]

The new atheism: "I believe in God and he agrees with me."

exactly - that is the kind of attitude that is the issue here - attacking others simply because they disagree with you - i don't know that i would call it atheism but it is something that creates bad results in a person's life

 

[Walpole]

exactly - that is the kind of attitude that is the issue here - attacking others simply because they disagree with you - i don't know that i would call it atheism but it is something that creates bad results in a person's life

Nobody is attacking anyone here.

I simply posed the question: How do you know what is or is not the Christian faith.

So far the only answer I have received is basically: It's whatever one wants it to be.

This is relativism, of which Christianity is most certainly not.

 

[Truthfrees]

Nobody is attacking anyone here.

I simply posed the question: How do you know what is or is not the Christian faith.

So far the only answer I have received is basically: It's whatever one wants it to be.

This is relativism, of which Christianity is most certainly not.

that is not what i said - i'm not sure how you get that out of anything i said

 

[Walpole]

that is not what i said - i'm not sure how you get that out of anything I said

You said the following a few posts back...

the thing is you and i do not determine that for others - you determine for you whether you are leaning your faith on Jesus or a denomination - i do the same - and so does everyone else

Again, that renders Christianity a religion of relativism, whereby each individual decides for himself what is or is not the Christian faith.

to state it again in a different way - leaning your faith on Jesus as Savior Redeemer Son of God - obeying His commands - abiding in Him - that is christianity

That is certainly part of Christianity, but by no means does it describe Christianity in its entirety. For example, what about baptism, the Eucharist, charity, forgiveness, prayer, repentance, hope etc.? Aren't these essential aspects of Christianity along with the other things you mention? Who decides if they are or are not? (This gets back to my original question.)

are you trying to create a definition that excludes calvinists?

No.

 

[Truthfrees]

You said the following a few posts back...

Again, that renders Christianity a religion of relativism, whereby each individual decides for himself what is or is not the Christian faith.

That is certainly part of Christianity, but by no means does it describe Christianity in its entirety. For example, what about baptism, the Eucharist, charity, forgiveness, prayer, repentance, hope etc.? Aren't these essential aspects of Christianity along with the other things you mention? Who decides if they are or are not? (This gets back to my original question.)

No.

ok then that is fine - i misunderstood what you were doing

so why do you want a comprehensive statement of faith from me?

because you want to know what i believe?

if you want to make a comprehensive statement of faith that is fine with me

i don't feel like creating one of my own

nicene creed is good imo

 

[Walpole]

ok then that is fine - i misunderstood what you were doing

so why do you want a comprehensive statement of faith from me?

because you want to know what i believe?

if you want to make a comprehensive statement of faith that is fine with me

i don't feel like creating one of my own

nicene creed is good imo

No, I am not asking for a comprehensive statement of faith. Here again is what I'm asking...

---> How do you know what is or is not the Christian faith?


As for creeds, they are moot unless the Church which created it has some authority to declare what is or is not the faith. Otherwise, your profession of it would be in vain.

If you profess the Nicene Creed, I presume you are either a Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. Is this correct?

 

[Truthfrees]

That is certainly part of Christianity, but by no means does it describe Christianity in its entirety. For example, what about baptism, the Eucharist, charity, forgiveness, prayer, repentance, hope etc.? Aren't these essential aspects of Christianity along with the other things you mention? Who decides if they are or are not? (This gets back to my original question.)

i would say they are - and reading the bible cover to cover continuously will help everyone learn how when and why to do all these things

 

[Truthfrees]

No, I am not asking for a comprehensive statement of faith. Here again is what I'm asking...

---> How do you know what is or is not the Christian faith?

As for creeds, they are moot unless the Church which created it has some authority to declare what is or is not the faith. Otherwise, your profession of it would be in vain.

If you profess the Nicene Creed, I presume you are either a Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. Is this correct?

i guess i don't know what you are looking for as an answer to your question - i'm at a dead end as far as knowing what more to say

 

[Walpole]

neither - i've been a part of many denominations including lutheran anglican bapticostal pentecostal salvation army messianic jewish word of faith charismatic grace and a few denominations i can't remember and my signature says i am now a blended faith of Nazarim MJ Charismatic Grace-ability WOF believer.

Why then would you claim to profess the creed of a Church with which you do not belong? Many of the decrees and canons declared at the very Council which composed the Nicene Creed are incompatible with the various Protestant sects you have been or are presently affiliated with.

i guess i don't know what you are looking for as an answer to your question - i'm at a dead end as far as knowing what more to say

It's a pretty straight forward and direct question I am asking...

---> How do you know what is or is not the Christian faith?

 

[GodsGrace]

i agree that our relationship with God is everything

I came to know Jesus when I was about 27/28.
For ten years I didn't do bible study (because it wasn't avx in my church) and I had never even read the bible.

So I got to know Jesus before I started learning anything.
Eventually I changed churches and did a lot of studying. I could tell almost instinctively when something didn't sound right to me.

I also came from a church where its adherents knew close to nothing and didn't even care to. So I find it very important now to KNOW my faith and I think everyone should know their faith.

I do agree that knowing doctrine helps to put our belief into words...but what helped me most to do this was a year-long study in discipleship.

Anything can be proved from scripture if we use the right verses....this is why I believe it's important to know the N.T. from cover to cover and understand what Jesus expects from us and what it was He was teaching -- the context seems to change for me if we do this.

The changes you went through are very interesting because each one is correct and yet if taken too literally, each one is wrong!

How:

God controls everything:
He does. Nothing happens unless He wants it to,,,or He wouldn't be sovereign. If taken to it's conclusion...we have what calvinists believe....God predetermines EVERYTHING. This is not true...the bible clearly shows that we have free will.

Jesus gave us authority:
But how much? We can ask anything in His name...but He has to be willing to give it to us. He is not REQUIRED to...that would make us the master and Him the worker.

Genesis 1:26 :
God made us in His image,,,but we are not God. Some religions think man is God, atheism would be one. Some believe we don't NEED God.

Co-laborer with Christ:
Synergism. Right. Then you have those that say this means that God cannot do the job of saving us alone because He's a weak God. Have heard this many times. So they believe in monorgism ---God does everything for us; even believe- we cannot even believe without Him.

The Law will not pass away:
Of course. But some think that Jesus paid the price for us...He "fulfilled" the Law, and now we no longer need the law. We can sin and still be covered by the blood. (as in sin all we want to).

That's all you mentioned...but this is true of every doctrine.

 

[GodsGrace]

that's a problem though - because where do we stop?

if this guy and that guy and the other guy are heretics then we start a heretic war - and then everyone calls everyone else a heretic

i've been called a fanatic and a heretic and deceived and all kinds of terrible things by people who misunderstand what i believe - we really need to stop doing this to believers in Christ - we need to find better ways to discuss scripture than judging each other's faith/doctrines/character/intelligence - if we disagree we disagree but speaking against another denomination is tearing us apart

if we live a vibrant daily life with God we will attract more people to Christ than those who lack God's vibrant life

if we start fighting each other the hearers and onlookers throw their hands up in the air and write the whole bunch of us off and go check out buddhism because they teach people to be peaceful and mind their own business except to help each other

Onlookers don't understand much anyway.
If someone's heart isn't open to God, they won't care much about us Christians.

Do you think heresies are NOT important?
The early church stopped many heresies...there's a whole list of them.

If they had been permitted to continue, the faith we know today would not exist because it would have been contaminated with so many strange ideas.

I'm not going to do this,,,but we all should look up heresies of the Christian faith and find out about some of them and how harmful they could have been.

Pelagianism was a good one, and Arianism.
So many....

I feel that we DO have to keep heresies out of the church.

heresy
/ˈhɛrɪsi/
noun

1. belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religious (especially Christian) doctrine.
   "Huss was burned for heresy"
   synonyms:dissension, dissent, dissidence, blasphemy, nonconformity, unorthodoxy, heterodoxy, apostasy, freethinking, schism, faction;
   
   
   
   • opinion profoundly at odds with what is generally accepted.
     "the heresy of being uncommitted to the right political dogma"

 

[GodsGrace]

true to a point

the better question is who is leaning their faith on Jesus rather than a denomination? - so really all denominations are man made to some degree - great or small - but faith in Jesus is between you and Jesus - and is not subject to anyone's judgement -

are there true christians in every denomination? - yes

do all denominations contain a degree of error/heresy? - yes

and we were told to not judge but wait for The Judge - Matthew 13:28-30 - Matthew 7:1-3 - because God's judgments are pure - ours are suspect - 1 Samuel 16:7 - John 8:7

I'm just reading along....

All denominations may have incorrect doctrine or may understand some verses differently,,,

But I wouldn't say all denomnations have heresies as part of their doctrine.

A heresy is serious.
I hope I'm not breaking any rules (easy to do!) but I think a certain belief is heretical...let's put it that way without mentioning it.

It's heretical because it changes the nature of God.
It does not accept God the same way as every other denomination accepts God and HIS NATURE.
We cannot change the nature of God.

 

[GodsGrace]

To me the parable of the sower is about trust. Do we trust the Lord or do we fall away from his teachings when we are tempted? Do we let the cares and pleasures of this world choke his word so that his word proves unfruitful? Or do we hold his word in an honest and good heart, and bear the fruit of the Spirit.

It doesn't say anything about being saved for a while.

MT

Sometimes I think I'm reading a different bible....

Luke 8:13
JESUS states that they BELIEVE for a while.

What does BELIEVE mean anyway?

If one believes.....one is saved.

When one STOPS believing...
He loses that salvation which depended on believing.

You think this is wrong?

 

[GodsGrace]

your gnat straining . i dont believe in being slain in the spirit nor do i think /believe speaking in tongues is sign of the baptism of the Holy spirit tongues is a gift. i respect the early fathers some bank heavy on.. i find there writings interesting /and or historical ..but they was just humans like me.. i dont really care who does believe in osas or osnas.. if you want to take up the banner of osas false doctrine so be it

Gnat straining.
I don't care to gnat strain.
If you notice, I don't spend a lot of time here and I post only for threads I consider to be important.

Did you ever hear me speak about tongues?
Did you ever hear me speak about being slain in the spirit?

This is because either has nothing to do with our salvation...I've said this before.

The ECF. They were not JUST MEN. They knew the Apostles and learned from them. I'd say this is a little different than learning from someone today.

I'll take up the banner of OSAS because I hear others stating that they could sin and still be saved. They could do nothing for God and still be saved. They misunderstand scripture to the 10th degree and their ears are closed to the truth.

Jesus said He is the truth. If we do not practice HIS truth, will we still be saved?

I'm concerned about persons souls.
Maybe too much?

ost till your heart is content with scripture
Ephesians 4:5-6 King James Version (KJV)
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Ephesians 4 King James Version (KJV)
I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;

3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Keeping the unity of the Spirit.
What does this mean?
Yesterday I was at a bible study with a monk (15 of us) and he said we should pray for unity. Unity of what????? I've never seen such division in the churches. Even in the CC, of which he's a member. They're becoming divided too.

have you ever heard about the sneetches in D.R .SUESS book

that is what this post reminds me of

do you think Charles Stanley is just as saved as you are? i dont agree with him %100 but i still respect him..

I watched the video. Who doesn't love Dr. Seuss? My son used to read his books when he was only 3 years old.

Great video....great theme.
Is that what we're doing?
or are we doing something more important?
Should everyone just go ahead and believe whatever they want to believe.

GK Chesterton said something to this effect:

He who accepts everything,
believes in nothing..

(words to this effect).

Charles Stanley.
Of course I believe he's saved.
I still don't believe in OSAS.

 

[GodsGrace]

the thing is you and i do not determine that for others - you determine for you whether you are leaning your faith on Jesus or a denomination - i do the same - and so does everyone else

for a time pentecostals were considered heretics / a cult

every new move of God is considered heretics / a cult -

we need to stop doing that and judge ourselves rather than others so that we will not end up being judged

we are told by Jesus to believe in Him obey His commandments and continue to abide in Him and then we will have eternal life

that is what we should all be focusing on

everything else will make a difference in a person's quality of life here on earth - and possibly the rewards they receive in heaven - but that is God's business - He is the Author and Perfecter of everyone's faith - so we need to stop attacking others over different interpretations of scripture

if you are asking who should be included in a list of christian denominations that has already been determined and calvinists are already on the list - are the doctrines wrong? - probably - but no more than every denomination's doctrines - so if we judge calvinists we will have to judge everyone else too to be fair - but rather than that let's each judge only ourselves and leave everyone else alone - let God deal with everyone - and let's us each do business with God about our own stuff that needs correcting

now if we want to discuss bible doctrines and the scriptural basis that is fine - but let's do it without attacking anyone - God loves calvinists so we best love them too - when we discuss doctrines lets do it with love not hatred for others - if we insult calvinists they will never listen to anything we have to say - and if we have some truth on areas where they are wrong they will never hear a word we say - and if they have some truth on areas where we are wrong we will never hear what they have to say - and we will all be dumber for it - and locked into ill will toward others

We're allowed to judge others TF.
Do you want to discuss this? It's a little off.topic.
If we cannot judge how do we do
Mathew 18:15.......

 

[GodsGrace]

Good post.

One cannot be "un-born again". This is why those who have fallen away and return are not treated as catechumens who must be rebaptized upon returning. Rather, Christians have historically professed "ONE baptism", not multiple baptisms. From her infancy, the Church has dealt with Christians falling away, many of which fell away due to extreme persecution. The fallen away were historically referred to as the lapsi. Their return to communion with God and the Church of Christ was done the same way all sinners are reconciled: via confession.

How was confession done in the early church?
I find little evidence of this...it seems to have developed rather than be practiced.