Some of the best NT verses threatening loss of salvation

[GodsGrace]

actually i have left it in God's hands were it belongs

you and God sort out what you are doing wrong and leave everyone else to do the same with God

if you are trying to erase calvinists from the list of christian denominations you are fighting a lonely losing battle

Calvinists hate to admit they are calvinists.
I wonder why?

And they are so different from others,,,
They believe in Jesus...I guess that makes them Christian.
I'm not sure.......

 

[GodsGrace]

exactly - that is the kind of attitude that is the issue here - attacking others simply because they disagree with you - i don't know that i would call it atheism but it is something that creates bad results in a person's life

TF,,,
I don't see any attacking going on here.
Unless you want to call my last post an attack...that would be the only one.

 

[GodsGrace]

that is not what i said - i'm not sure how you get that out of anything i said

to state it again in a different way - leaning your faith on Jesus as Savior Redeemer Son of God - obeying His commands - abiding in Him - that is christianity

are you trying to create a definition that excludes calvinists?

Some heretical beliefs included believing Jesus is the SON of God.....but not God.

Some don't think we need to heed the commands because Jesus has "fulfilled" them and we are no longer under the law.

etc.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, I am not asking for a comprehensive statement of faith. Here again is what I'm asking...

---> How do you know what is or is not the Christian faith?


As for creeds, they are moot unless the Church which created it has some authority to declare what is or is not the faith. Otherwise, your profession of it would be in vain.

If you profess the Nicene Creed, I presume you are either a Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. Is this correct?

Most protestant churches agree with the Nicene Creed....

 

[GodsGrace]

neither - i've been a part of many denominations including lutheran anglican bapticostal pentecostal salvation army messianic jewish word of faith charismatic grace judaism and a few denominations i can't remember and my signature says i am now a blended faith of Nazarim MJ Charismatic Grace-ability WOF believer.

i guess i don't know what you are looking for as an answer to your question - i'm at a dead end as far as knowing what more to say

Walpole is not looking for a personal answer from you TF.

He's saying that there are certain beliefs that make one be a Christian....

These beliefs have to be stable and cannot be changed.

If we could make up our own rules as to what Christianity is....then Christianity looses all meaning and we no longer know what it is or what is required of us, or even whether or not we're Christian.

The rules for what makes a person be Christian have already been set long ago....they can't be changed.

 

[GodsGrace]

I apologize for hogging the thread.
It's the time difference.

 

[Walpole]

How was confession done in the early church?
I find little evidence of this...it seems to have developed rather than be practiced.

It was done the same way it is done today: auricular to the bishop or priest

 

[Walpole]

Most protestant churches agree with the Nicene Creed....

Why would Protestants use the Creed of another religion with which they disagree? Many of the very decrees and canons declared at the council which wrote the Creed are rejected by Protestants. For example, the fathers at Nicea...


- Declared Christ as the same substance (ὁμοούσιον, consubstantialem) of the Father - contra sola Scriptura (Ecthesis of the Council)
- Supported the discipline of celibacy and clerical continence (Canon 3)
- Instructed on preserving valid Apostolic succession by requiring three bishops present for the consecration of subsequent bishops (Canon 4)
- Declaring Rome as the authority to grant jurisdiction to other Churches (Canon 6)
- Ruled on ordaining men to the priesthood (Canons 9 & 10)
- Instructed on giving viaticum to the dying (Canon 13)
- Instructed regarding catechumens (Canon 14)
- Affirmed the ordained episcopate, priesthood and deaconate (Canon 18)
- Explicitly referred to the Eucharist as the literal “Body of Christ" (Canon 18)
- Explicitly referred to the priests and bishops as they who "offer" the Eucharistic sacrifice. (Canon 18)


These are but a few examples, all of which are rejected by Protestants. Protestants claiming to agree to the Catholic Creed is as logical as saying I agree with the creed of the Mormons, despite the fact that the Mormon religion is incompatible with the Catholic religion.

 

[Truthfrees]

Why then would you claim to profess the creed of a Church with which you do not belong? Many of the decrees and canons declared at the very Council which composed the Nicene Creed are incompatible with the various Protestant sects you have been or are presently affiliated with.

It's a pretty straight forward and direct question I am asking...

---> How do you know what is or is not the Christian faith?

as far as the nicene i don't see anything wrong with it

 

[GodsGrace]

It was done the same way it is done today: auricular to the bishop or priest

You're not going back far enough!

It's not easy to find information on this. I always look for more information.

I can't get into this now...but Paul had told a church in Corinth to let a sinner back into the church because he had been banished due to sin. It doesn't speak about confessing.

The early church confessed by speaking out their sins when they gathered. This began to cause problems and so they went to private confession....person to priest.

I can't remember the timeline, I used to know it. I think confession the way we have it now did not exist till about 1,200 AD.

If you get any info, please post it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Why would Protestants use the Creed of another religion with which they disagree? Many of the very decrees and canons declared at the council which wrote the Creed are rejected by Protestants. For example, the fathers at Nicea...


- Declared Christ as the same substance (ὁμοούσιον, consubstantialem) of the Father - contra sola Scriptura (Ecthesis of the Council)
- Supported the discipline of celibacy and clerical continence (Canon 3)
- Instructed on preserving valid Apostolic succession by requiring three bishops present for the consecration of subsequent bishops (Canon 4)
- Declaring Rome as the authority to grant jurisdiction to other Churches (Canon 6)
- Ruled on ordaining men to the priesthood (Canons 9 & 10)
- Instructed on giving viaticum to the dying (Canon 13)
- Instructed regarding catechumens (Canon 14)
- Affirmed the ordained episcopate, priesthood and deaconate (Canon 18)
- Explicitly referred to the Eucharist as the literal “Body of Christ" (Canon 18)
- Explicitly referred to the priests and bishops as they who "offer" the Eucharistic sacrifice. (Canon 18)


These are but a few examples, all of which are rejected by Protestants. Protestants claiming to agree to the Catholic Creed is as logical as saying I agree with the creed of the Mormons, despite the fact that the Mormon religion is incompatible with the Catholic religion.

You seem to be well-versed in the canons of the CC. I'm not and don't know too many who are. Most don't even really know the doctrine of that church.

What you've listed above is what the protestants DO NOT agree with.

But there is nothing to disagree with regarding the Nicene Creed.

Here it is:

Nicene Creed (325 AD)

I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.


All Christians should believe in the above.

 

[Truthfrees]

Walpole is not looking for a personal answer from you TF.

He's saying that there are certain beliefs that make one be a Christian....

These beliefs have to be stable and cannot be changed.

If we could make up our own rules as to what Christianity is....then Christianity looses all meaning and we no longer know what it is or what is required of us, or even whether or not we're Christian.

The rules for what makes a person be Christian have already been set long ago....they can't be changed.

we don't have to make up any rules about who is and isn't a christian

 

[GodsGrace]

we don't have to make up any rules about who is and isn't a christian -

OK.
I see what the misunderstanding is.

I'm not saying we could know who is and who isn't a Christian.

Only God can know that. We don't have much to go by except maybe what the person tells us and what kind of a life they live. But atheists could live a good life too -- they just don't confess God.

Walpole and I are NOT saying that we could know who is a Christian,,,IOW, a believer.

What we ARE saying is that a Christian believes certain principles that make him be able to call Himself a Christian.

For instance, somebody that worships Buddha and lights candles and brings flowers and gifts to him...is NOT a Christian. He is a Buddhist.

We had a thread once on what makes a person be able to be called a Christian.

Some of the biggies are:
Jesus is God
God manifested Himself to us -- revealed Himself.
Jesus died for our sins.
He was resurrected.
He was born miraculously by a virgin.
The Trinity or Godhead.
Baptism.
Communion.
Confession ?
Life after death...
etc.

 

[GodsGrace]

we don't have to make up any rules about who is and isn't a christian

I saw the link.
I should learn how to do that...
Most of those verses don't apply to our judging.

Maybe there should be a thread on this?
I'll start one...

 

[Truthfrees]

OK.
I see what the misunderstanding is.

I'm not saying we could know who is and who isn't a Christian.

Only God can know that. We don't have much to go by except maybe what the person tells us and what kind of a life they live. But atheists could live a good life too -- they just don't confess God.

Walpole and I are NOT saying that we could know who is a Christian,,,IOW, a believer.

What we ARE saying is that a Christian believes certain principles that make him be able to call Himself a Christian.

For instance, somebody that worships Buddha and lights candles and brings flowers and gifts to him...is NOT a Christian. He is a Buddhist.

We had a thread once on what makes a person be able to be called a Christian.

Some of the biggies are:
Jesus is God
God manifested Himself to us -- revealed Himself.
Jesus died for our sins.
He was resurrected.
He was born miraculously by a virgin.
The Trinity or Godhead.
Baptism.
Communion.
Confession ?
Life after death...
etc.

those extra points you made - are you saying that if someone misunderstands communion / baptism / confession / life after death they are not a christian?

 

[GodsGrace]

those extra points you made - are you saying that if someone misunderstands communion / baptism / confession / life after death they are not a christian?

I think we need to stop talking about this.
We're speaking past each other.

I'm not talking about denominations...
I'm talking about what makes a person a Christian.

I didn't say MISUNDERSTANDS
communion
baptism
confession
life after death

I said if they don't believe in the above they cannot be Christian.
Christians do the things I listed.

It can't be just believing in Jesus.
Some non-Christian religions believe in Jesus.
You don't want me to name them so I won't,,,but we all know which...

Some members are starting their own church because they do not believe Jesus is God.

Are they still Christian?
They DO believe in Jesus.
They do believe He died for their sins.
They do believe He's the Son of God.

Can just anyone be called a Christian no matter WHAT they believe as long as they're depending on Jesus?

 

[GodsGrace]

Truthfrees

I can't make a new thread under
Theology !
Is it me??

I wanted to start one called
ARE WE ALLOWED TO JUDGE?

(like we had said before)

There might be something wrong??

 

[Walpole]

You're not going back far enough!

It's not easy to find information on this. I always look for more information.

I can't get into this now...but Paul had told a church in Corinth to let a sinner back into the church because he had been banished due to sin. It doesn't speak about confessing.

The early church confessed by speaking out their sins when they gathered. This began to cause problems and so they went to private confession....person to priest.

I can't remember the timeline, I used to know it. I think confession the way we have it now did not exist till about 1,200 AD.

If you get any info, please post it.

I can go all the way back to the beginning if that helps. Throughout salvation history, God has consistently sought to extract a confession from man. For example, in the beginning, we read "Who told you that you were naked?" Or, "Where is your brother Abel?" I could go on and on throughout the pages of Scripture.

History culminates when God actually enters into his creation by becoming Man in the person of Jesus Christ. After His death and resurrection, on the evening of Easter, our Blessed Lord appeared to the Apostles and breathes on them. (This is significant itself given it is only the second time in Scripture where God literally breathes onto man - the first being when He breathed life into Adam.) When Jesus breathes on them, He imparts on them the Holy Ghost, and then gives them the authority to forgive sins. St. John records the event as follows...

"On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, 'Peace be with you.' When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, 'Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.' And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.'” (John 20:19-23)

This is where the Christian practice of confession became a sacrament. In order for the Apostles (and their successors) to be able to forgive sins, they must first be told the sins. Hence confession, by definition, must be auricular. It has been this way from the beginning of the Church. We see this in practice in Acts when the Ephesians confess their sins to Paul in Acts 19:18. You mentioned St. Paul's epistle to the Corinthians, and to the faithful there the Apostle tells them he is charged with the "ministry of reconciliation." ( 2 Col 5:18) St. James instructs the faithful to make a confession (5:16) and St. John tells us if we confess our sins, they will be forgiven. (1 John 1:9)

Confession is practiced immediately from the Church's infancy, as testified to in the Scriptures and then in each subsequent century. (i.e. the Didache, St. Irenaeus, Origin, Tertullian, St. Cyprian, St. Athanasius, St. Basil, St. Augustine, Leo the Great, etc. etc.)

What you reference in the 13th century was the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), which did not invent the sacrament, but rather instructed the faithful to confess at least annually. (You can read it here -> http://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/ecum12-2.htm#21)

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

you know, there isn't one verse in the Bible that says we can lose our salvation
People just take verses and make them fit.

 

[Walpole]

You seem to be well-versed in the canons of the CC. I'm not and don't know too many who are. Most don't even really know the doctrine of that church.

What you've listed above is what the protestants DO NOT agree with.

But there is nothing to disagree with regarding the Nicene Creed.

Here it is:

Nicene Creed (325 AD)

I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.


All Christians should believe in the above.

I guess what I am having difficulty understanding is why you would profess a creed composed by a Church you do not belong to, which taught things contrary to what you actually believe at the very council in which the Creed was written.

Would you recite Mormon statements of faith?