Some of the best NT verses threatening loss of salvation

[JLB]

i didn't that say at all anywhere as you couldn't provide a quote of me saying this

Here is your quote from post #523.

This post from you was in response to Paul warning us that some will depart from the faith.

yes - that phrase can mean that church attenders who did not commit to Jesus left the faith - just like people dating can break up even though they were never married - they were both dabbling without making commitment - and before they made a commitment they left/fell away/departed/broke up/etc

Paul is not talking about “Church attenders” or people dating before marriage.


If you are in “the faith” you sir are married to Christ, “in Christ”, in our common salvation through faith in Christ.


If you depart from the faith then you are no longer in the common salvation through faith in Christ.


Go look back at the definition for “the faith”, in that thread. I believe you approve.


Departing from the faith.

Not inheriting the kingdom of God

Departing from the living God.

Fall away

Removed from the Vine


Are all references to no longer having salvation.



JLB

 

[MarkT]

His love is great for His sheep, even the ones who go astray.


Thank you and praise you forever Lord Jesus.


It’s not about, how much Jesus loves the Sheep, it’s about how much “we” love Jesus, and we who are called to tend His sheep, love His sheep.


Jesus doesn’t go after any sheep.

Jesus is in heaven.

He finished His work.

Now, it’s up to the Church, to go after the sheep who become lost.

That’s what Jesus was teaching His disciples.


He said to him again a second time, “Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?”He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.”
He said to him, “Tend My sheep.” John 21:16

• Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone.

• But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’

• And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:12-17





JLB

He calls his sheep through the gospel.

The idea is the sheep was lost like lost in the wilderness. In peril. In danger.

Lost in the big city, homeless, without hope.

The sheep do not become lost after they are found. They are in the Father's hand.

My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. John 10:29

 

[JLB]

He calls his sheep through the gospel.

The idea is the sheep was lost like lost in the wilderness. In peril. In danger.

Lost in the big city, homeless, without hope.

The sheep do not become lost after they are found. They are in the Father's hand.

My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. John 10:29

Bro, do the lost need salvation?


If you quote the context of John 10:29, which is verses 27 and 28, you will see that the condition for receiving eternal life and not being snatched away is -

• hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me

Guess what happens to His sheep who don’t continue to hear follow Him?

They get lost!


The promise of not getting snatched out of the Fathers hand is to those who hear and obey, resulting in following Christ.


Following Him along the difficult road that leads to life.


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. John 10:27-29



Brother, lost is defined by the Lord Jesus Christ.


We don’t get to make up our own definition that suits us, then apply it to the scriptures.


Lost means a sinner in need of repentance; separated from Christ




JLB

 

[stovebolts]

i guess the problem from my pov is that when i was given a specific scripture(s) to comment on i did -

then the last post i was NOT given a scripture to comment on - i was TOLD i said something about that scripture - which i did not - and then i was accused of an unhealthy narrative

imo the red part is a breach of trust to be ASKED about 3 scriptures and then TOLD i said something about a 4rth scripture

to me it seems like a setup/entrapment/cagey way to participate in a discussion

I understand how you feel, and I speak from experience.

JLB has an honest heart, just like you do. But like yourself, we all have faults including me, and I count on you all to keep me straight when I get out of line.

Chalk this up as a lessoned learned. When one person feels the other is misrepresenting him, it's generally over something which was misunderstood coupled with little effort in "hearing" the other because we become consumed with " being heard".

Help us all better understand how you see somebody who believes, but becomes lost. Give us a real world example.

 

[JLB]

they never left judaism - Acts 24:14

1 John 2:19 - James 2:19

1 John 2:19 - James 2:19

Romans 10:9-10 is saved

just believing God exists is not salvation - James 2:19

Ok. I’ll try it again.



Keep in mind that Jesus knows what He Himself means by “believe”.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

Jesus Christ Himself plainly said “believe” and be saved.

When the person “believes” they are saved according to the Lord Jesus.


But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


These on the rock, did in fact “believe”.

• when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

These folks did in fact, according to Jesus, “believe”.

• We know these folks believed because Jesus said they “believe”.
• We know they “believed” because Jesus said they received the word, with joy.
• We know they “believe” because they were being persecuted as Christians, which is why they fell away.

JLB

 

[MarkT]

Bro, do the lost need salvation?


If you quote the context of John 10:29, which is verses 27 and 28, you will see that the condition for receiving eternal life and not being snatched away is -

• hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me

Guess what happens to His sheep who don’t continue to hear follow Him?

They get lost!


The promise of not getting snatched out of the Fathers hand is to those who hear and obey, resulting in following Christ.


Following Him along the difficult road that leads to life.


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. John 10:27-29



Brother, lost is defined by the Lord Jesus Christ.


We don’t get to make up our own definition that suits us, then apply it to the scriptures.


Lost means a sinner in need of repentance; separated from Christ




JLB

The parable says the sheep was lost, then found. It doesn't say lost then found then lost again then found again etc.

Jesus said the sheep hear his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and he leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” John 10

No what ifs about it.

 

[Truthfrees]

I understand how you feel, and I speak from experience.

JLB has an honest heart, just like you do. But like yourself, we all have faults including me, and I count on you all to keep me straight when I get out of line.

Chalk this up as a lessoned learned. When one person feels the other is misrepresenting him, it's generally over something which was misunderstood coupled with little effort in "hearing" the other because we become consumed with " being heard".

Help us all better understand how you see somebody who believes, but becomes lost. Give us a real world example.

i tried answering your question but am feeling a little deflated about starting over after putting so much work into my posts starting at post 147 - so if it is ok with you i will quote my posts here and then search through them for the best of what i had to say - page 8-page 13 (post #247)

what you are saying makes sense - the parable of the sower talks about different soil - hard soil that was so hard the Word never entered into the soil - and then other types of soil that were shallow and the scorching sun dried up the root - and the thorny soil that choked out the word - and the last soil that was good ground that persevered and bore fruit

so i can see how the persevering soil was the good attentive understanding soil - SAVED - and that is the believer

the other soils either fell away right away or somewhere later - they never understood and persevered - possibly meaning they were never saved - because they did not have lasting roots -aka lasting faith - aka salvation - maybe those that fall away were never saved because they had never a lasting root - maybe saved is those that have a lasting root

just thinking out loud - your posts got me thinking about how is a person saved - what is a saved person - what is a DATING person ve a MARRIED person

maybe people can follow Jesus like they are DATING - but they are never KNOWN by Jesus until they MARRY - make a true heart commitment

makes more sense to me that a person DATING Jesus can fall away like the first 3 soils in the parable of the sower - also makes sense that someone who is MARRIED to Jesus is the last soil - and those people don't fall away or walk in unbelief

thinking this through but a seed sprouts - a little sprout grows out and keeps growing until it becomes a root - - but a root is not a plant until it grows out of the ground - and a plant does not mature unless the root holds - so what is salvation? - a root that holds - or a root that isn't strong and deep and big enough to hold?

what is salvation? - any little tiny uncommitted temporary belief?

like marriage - i know people that think so little of marriage that they jump in and jump out - as the whim takes hold of them - is that really marriage?

can there be people who think so little of Jesus that they jump in and out of faith in Him? - are those people saved when they really don't respect Jesus enough from the start?

are they like those who followed Jesus for the bread - the food that perishes?

or is salvation like those who follow Jesus for spiritual food that lasts?

i think we might have made a weak/low bar for salvation if we think flip floppers are at any time saved - imo the powerful work of God called salvation would change a flip flopper into a committed believer

i think we need to find out more about who God says is saved to say that the 1st 3 soils were saved and then lost their salvation - sounds to me like only the last soil was a heart ready to receive salvation

still thinking this through

wow just saw this now didn't realize you already made the same statement -

as several have said does dabbling count as salvation? - or does commitment count as salvation?

dabblers can continue dabbling until they commit - which makes dabbling a testing ground - like do i want to commit to the Lord or not? - count the costs iow - Luke 14:28

so some can fall away while still counting the costs but not yet committed/saved - like dating - many can break off the relationship while still dating and it is not considered divorce - but after marriage it is considered divorce to break off the relationship

as for the members here i think we KNOW we are saved if we understand God's grace to help us with all our shortcomings as we are HIS workmanship - and God is working on us - so our shortcomings are not a sign of NOT being save - they are a sign that God is still working on us

some people mistakenly think their shortcomings are a sign they are NOT saved - we need to encourage them on how to get God's help to overcome sin/shortcomings/temptation

those who are perishing all seem to have a direct issue with Jesus - the author of our salvation - those who reject/devalue/disrespect/disregard Jesus and the truth about Jesus and His words to us seem to be the people who Jesus says I NEVER KNEW YOU

still just thinking out loud - wondering about all this - i want to encourage those who are scared for their salvation vs those who disrespect God and His free gift of salvation

if the parable of the sower was about believers falling away then it sounds like very few will be saved and most will fall away -and lose their salvation -

of all the people i personally know who "fell away" none of them had a relationship with Jesus - all of them were doing what they thought was the born again thing apart from Jesus - iow they were not introduced to Jesus - they were introduced to being born again -

people can fall away from religion and theories and groups very easily because all these things disappoint - but it's pretty hard to fall away from Jesus after meeting Him and growing roots in HIM

i think there is something wrong with our proper understanding of CHRIST NOT YET FORMED and FALLING AWAY

when people attending church were not behaving like christians paul said he would have to travail in birth again that CHRIST MIGHT BE FORMED IN THEM - Galatians 4:19 - paul said travail in birth - so it sounds like there was no birth - sounds like people were drawn to church or Christ but some how there was not yet a new birth in Christ - i can see and have seen with my own eyes people like this fall away - but it really seems from their own words that they never encountered Christ and that is why they fell away and/or didn't behave like christians YET

not being yet in Christ is hopeful that someone can travail that Christ be formed in them - someone losing their salvation sounds very scary -
i don't believe there are many cases like this - i believe i see many cases of Christ not yet formed in people and that is why they flounder flip flop fall away etc

great point - only one understood - the rest did not

and the only one that understood ALSO persevered - the rest could not understand and that is possibly why they could not receive/understand/persevere in the truth

Matthew 13:1-35 - Mark 4:1-33 - Luke 8:4-15

good point - the hard soil did not believe - so that kind of person was not saved

the other 2 rocky and thorny - if they did not understand could they believe? - what did they believe? - if you misunderstand what you heard can you be truly believe and be saved?

amen - i see it the same as you do - i guess what i see here is those who are departing from the faith are hypocrites and liars with seared consciences - so for me that really calls into question if they were ever saved - i have a hard time believing that a hypocrite liar with a seared conscience could ever be saved - they sound like the people Jesus said He never knew

they have no root - so how can they be saved? - they receive the word immediately with joy and then they immediately fall away - what kind of salvation is that - it doesn't say they received the Savior - it doesn't say they believed Jesus is the Son of God Whom God raised from the dead

what are they receiving with joy? - not the Savior - something else - and they are 1 of the 3 who have no understanding - only the one with understanding persevered and bore fruit - i see this as someone who didn't get saved - because they didn't even take root

that is how it looked to me - i don't see how people like that get saved and then turn out like this - seems like they already had a problem with hypocrisy and a seared conscience - and other verses talked about people being liars as well - 2 Corinthians 5:17 says when a person gets saved they are a new creation - all the old passed away - all things became new - Galatians 4:19 says people like this need travail/intercession on their behalf for Christ to be formed in them - 1 John 2:19 says the fact they left proves they never were one of us-

yes - this seems the best interpretation to me too

 

[ezra]

These folks did in fact, according to Jesus, “believe”.

nope disagree salvation is not temporal like the o.t sacrifices . actually this is compared to the hearers and where the word fell a /seed amy sprout among rocks but the plant will never produce anything

 

[Truthfrees]

posts 248-518 - pages 13-26

 

[Truthfrees]

posts 523-590 - pages 27-30

 

[JLB]

nope disagree salvation is not temporal like the o.t sacrifices . actually this is compared to the hearers and where the word fell a /seed amy sprout among rocks but the plant will never produce anything

You disagree that Jesus said the believed?

• when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke. 8:12-13



Jesus said they receive the word with joy. (The joy of salvation)


Then later on in their lives they are persecuted because they are believers.


Jesus says the condition for salvation is to believe.

• lest they should believe and be saved.

What condition do you require for salvation?




JLB

 

[JLB]

posts 523-590 - pages 27-30

This is what it looks like when I try to reply to all your posts.


Can you help me to understand why you don’t believe these folks who Jesus is describing in verse 13, were not believers for a while?



Keep in mind that Jesus knows what He Himself means by “believe”.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

Jesus Christ Himself plainly said “believe” and be saved.

When the person “believes” they are saved according to the Lord Jesus.


But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


These on the rock, did in fact “believe”.

• when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

These folks did in fact, according to Jesus, “believe”.

• We know these folks believed because Jesus said they “believe”.
• We know they “believed” because Jesus said they received the word, with joy.
• We know they “believe” because they were being persecuted as Christians, which is why they fell away.

JLB

 

[Truthfrees]

I understand how you feel, and I speak from experience.

JLB has an honest heart, just like you do. But like yourself, we all have faults including me, and I count on you all to keep me straight when I get out of line.

Chalk this up as a lessoned learned. When one person feels the other is misrepresenting him, it's generally over something which was misunderstood coupled with little effort in "hearing" the other because we become consumed with " being heard".

Help us all better understand how you see somebody who believes, but becomes lost. Give us a real world example.

BELIEVES BUT BECOMES LOST?
1. NOT YET SAVED - there are at least 2 kinds of belief - the devil believes and is not saved - if a person has this same kind of belief then he is not saved either - if this kind of person attends a church and later leaves saying they no longer believe imo the truth is they were never saved - and john said they never belonged - so they did not BECOME lost - they were ALWAYS lost - they need to get born again/saved - if they keep attending church and still never get saved they are the ones to whom it is said depart from ME I never knew you

2. SAVED - the kind of belief that is associated with salvation is the kind that cannot end because once someone is saved the Holy Spirit lives in them and seals them - this is the kind of person to whom it is said I WILL NEVER LOSE YOU - so this person cannot lose their salvation - although they can lose their way and be found and brought back on track - but regarding salvation the power of God will keep them

3. NOT YET SAVED SINNER - those who gleefully sin are not yet saved - they might say they believe and they may attend church but their lack of conscience proves the new nature is not in them yet so they do not yet have the kind of belief associated with salvation - or they might actually be lying about being a christian - only God knows - but faith without works is dead - so the kind of faith/belief they have is dead faith - not the faith/belief associated with salvation - they need to get saved/born again

4. SAVED SINNER - those who are tormented over their sin are saved - they might say they have committed the unpardonable sin - but the fact that their conscience is grieved and tormented over their sin proves that they are still saved - the sin issue needs to be dealt with so they can have peace and purity - but they have not lost their salvation they have only lost their way - they need help overcoming sin


phrase/concept - LOST AND FOUND
this is someone who is SAVED and becomes lost but does not lose his salvation - he has merely lost his way for a bit and God will get him back on track as evidenced by the fact that he is found again - the lost sheep found - the lost coin found - this could be someone who temporarily lost their confidence/faith in God and/or started living in sin and LATER is returned by God's power to confidence in God and right living because God promised to be the Author and Perfecter of their faith and to complete the work He started in them

phrase/concept - DEPART/LEFT/FALL AWAY
this is someone who appears saved but was NEVER SAVED and never a part of the body - when he departs/falls away/leaves the faith /leaves the fold he did not lose his salvation nor did he lose his way because he was never saved as per 1 John 2:19 - scripture also says there is no way back for those who depart/leave/fall away/leave the faith - they know better like the devil did - they tasted of the good things of God like the devil did but they chose to not give God glory even though they knew God deserved it - imo this person is doomed because they are willful about denying God

the above is the best i understand scripture right now - i can add scripture to this to make it more complete

i am in this discussion to discuss and learn - i am open to finding out i am wrong but i am not open to being told i am dishonest or any other nasty accusation or label like those that have been thrown around so far in this thread

thanks StoveBolts for showing the example of how to have friendly discussions

 

[JLB]

the devil believes and is not saved

Demons believe in God, but don’t obey the Lord.


Not the case with those who hear the gospel, and believe, having received the word with joy, and later are persecuted because they are believers.



JLB

 

[JLB]

this is someone who is SAVED and becomes lost but does not lose his salvation - he has merely lost his way for a bit and God will get him back on track as evidenced by the fact that he is found again - the lost sheep found - the lost coin found - this could be someone who temporarily lost their confidence/faith in God and/or started living in sin and LATER is returned by God's power to confidence in God and right living because God promised to be the Author and Perfecter of their faith and to complete the work He started in them

We must examine the words Jesus uses in His teaching, and define them biblically in order to understand what He is teaching.


Sinner
Repentance
Lost
Just
Found


Brother someone who is lost, must repent; turn to God and be reconciled with Him.


Otherwise they will remain as a sinner; a person separated from Christ.


Matthew gives us another perspective on this parable.

• But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:12-18




JLB

 

[Truthfrees]

Demons believe in God, but don’t obey the Lord.

Not the case with those who hear the gospel, and believe, having received the word with joy, and later are persecuted because they are believers.

JLB

if they leave they do not continue to obey the Lord - this is the same thing lucifer did - he obeyed God for a while and then stopped obeying

 

[JLB]

if they leave they do not continue to obey the Lord - this is the same thing lucifer did - he obeyed God for a while and then stopped obeying -

Thank you!

I agree.

A son of God is now destined for the everlasting fires of hell, along with those whom he deceived.




JLB

 

[JLB]

so imo 1 John 2:19 applies - if anyone leaves they never did belong

This is what you keep saying, and this is what I keep pointing out.


The sheep that became lost belonged to the Shepherd.

• “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them,

So your mistaken when you say “if anyone leaves they never did belong”.


This mindset gets erased in the parable of the lost sheep.


I asked you before, and now I’m asking you again, in all humility, fear and trembling, and love, please brother, please stop promoting the idea that if one of His sheep leaves Him, they never belonged.


It’s just not biblical.


Please understand what this puts into people’s mind...

They wander away from Him, and instead of repenting, they believe they were never one of His anyway, so they don’t bother to repent, and return to Him, (being beat down with shame and guilt, and discouragement), who is waiting to restore them.




JLB

 

[JLB]

the devil is irredeemable because he knows better - he tasted of the heavenly gift etc etc and so his rebellion/departing/leaving was with comprehensive understanding of what he was doing - what he did was evil and based on full knowledge and hatred of God

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6





JLB

 

[stovebolts]

i tried answering your question but am feeling a little deflated about starting over after putting so much work into my posts starting at post 147 - so if it is ok with you i will quote my posts here and then search through them for the best of what i had to say - page 8-page 13 (post #247)

Hi,
I've read all of your quotes and it got me to thinking, I need to start a bible study on Matthew 13:1-23. I'll refresh my studies which comes from Snodgrass, Stories with Intent and then build from there. I'll try to get my act together this week and post a lesson next Saturday.

Within the churches of Christ, we have over emphasized Baptism to counter the under emphasis most churches grant it. John Mark Hicks, Professor of Theology wrote a wonderful book on Baptism to the churches of Christ and one thing he really, really drove home is that God is more in the business of transformation than salvation. I bring this up because for the past year this forum has been discussing "Salvation" almost to an obsession, yet the topic of transformation receives little attention.

I understand that this doesn't answer your questions, nor address your points. Within the churches of Christ, we see baptism as a participation in salvation and we also view that as a marriage. So I understand what you mean by your dating vs marriage analogy. Is one not really saved if they have not been baptized (representing the marriage)? These are the conversations I am familiar with, and I see a similarity between those discussions and yours.

I haven't participated in this thread for a reason ;-)