another question i have for those who believe that people who left never belonged:- still working this through and wanted input
The issue is whether "never belonged" refers to unbelievers, or believers who adhere to false doctrines.
The verse usually cited is 1 John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
I will show from Scripture that this can easily refer to believers who adhere to false doctrines.
Rom 16:17 - I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.
The context here, in noting worthy believers, would indicate that v.17 refers to unworthy believers who divide and obfuscate believers. We all have known such people.
Acts 15:1 - Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.”
v.5 - Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”
v.5 shows that v.1 refers to believers of the Pharisee party, and adhering to false doctrine.
v.24 - We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said.
This verse refers back to the believers of the Pharisee party, who were dividing and obstructing the church.
Acts 20:30 - Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.
This seems quite clear that even believers will arise and distort the truth. Such believers don't belong to any local assembly of believers (church) who hold to biblical doctrines.
1 Tim 1:19 - holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith.
This is a sad testimonial of believers who didn't hold on to faith and a good conscience, and have suffered for it.
2 Tim 4-
3For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
These 2 verses show that believers can be easily led astray from biblical doctrines.
there are scriptures talking about willful sinners who can never repent and receive salvation because there is no sacrifice left to cover willful sin - Hebrew 10:26-31 -
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”
31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Hebrews 9 begins a discussion about the one time all sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice for sin: v.12, 26, 28. And the discussion carries into ch 10: 1,2, 10, 12 and 14.
Then, the author concludes that because of this "once for all" sacrifice for sins, "there is no longer any sacrifice for sin" in v.18. iow, because of Christ's perfect once for all sacrifice, there is no necessity of any more sacrificing for one's sins, unlike under the Law in the OT. This was a new concept to the early church, who were used to annual sacrifices in accordance with the Law. Yet Heb 10:1-2 explains how such repeated sacrifices never 'perfected' those who worshiped under the Law, with it's various sacrifices.
So, the context for 10:26-31 is the same subject; Christ's once for all sacrifice means that there is no longer any need for sacrifice. It's all been done.
So v.26 addresses willful sin. Again, because of Christ's once for all sacrifice, there is no need for further sacrifice regarding willful sin. Then, v.27 gives us the consequence of such sin: fearful expectation of judgment and raging fire (not eternal fire) that will consume the enemies of God. This isn't about loss of salvation, or failure to gain it back, but rather a stern warning that those who engage in willful sin will face God's hand of discipline, which Heb 12:11 says will be painful. Most who believe that salvation can be lost seem to ignore, forget, or simply don't know Scripture that warns of God's discipline towards His disobedient children.
Paul gives us a hint of how that might play out in 1 Cor 5:5, regarding the incestuous believer. Paul turned him over to Satan for the "destruction of the flesh", which is another way of expressing "sin unto death" that is mentioned in 1 John 5:16.
Then, Paul lists the progression of God's discipline in the Corinithian church in 1 Cor 11:30 - weakness, sickness, and physical death.
and the unpardonable sin issue of speaking against the Holy Spirit - Mark 3:28-29 - Matthew 12:31-32
In context, Jesus said this regarding those Pharisees who physically saw His miracles and then attributed them to the devil, rather than giving God the glory. Such extreme rejection of God's power shows that such men were beyond help, and would not believe.
Some believe that "speaking against the Holy Spirit" occurs today when people reject the gospel, but the context where Jesus explained this was specific to Jesus' miracles performed in the power of the Holy Spirit but attributed to the devil instead.
