Some of the best NT verses threatening loss of salvation

[Truthfrees]

Hi,
I've read all of your quotes and it got me to thinking, I need to start a bible study on Matthew 13:1-23. I'll refresh my studies which comes from Snodgrass, Stories with Intent and then build from there. I'll try to get my act together this week and post a lesson next Saturday.

Within the churches of Christ, we have over emphasized Baptism to counter the under emphasis most churches grant it. John Mark Hicks, Professor of Theology wrote a wonderful book on Baptism to the churches of Christ and one thing he really, really drove home is that God is more in the business of transformation than salvation. I bring this up because for the past year this forum has been discussing "Salvation" almost to an obsession, yet the topic of transformation receives little attention.

I understand that this doesn't answer your questions, nor address your points. Within the churches of Christ, we see baptism as a participation in salvation and we also view that as a marriage. So I understand what you mean by your dating vs marriage analogy. Is one not really saved if they have not been baptized (representing the marriage)? These are the conversations I am familiar with, and I see a similarity between those discussions and yours.

I haven't participated in this thread for a reason ;-)

sounds good - look forward to it

i respect the reasons you have to not get involved in this thread

it would be blessing to have a discussion with someone who disagrees yet acts like my friend

 

[stovebolts]

sounds good - look forward to it

i respect the reasons you have to not get involved in this thread

it would be blessing to have a discussion with someone who disagrees yet acts like my friend

I understand.

For me, I view sanctification as some pretty powerful stuff. For me, salvation isn't a destiny.... It's a state. I am saved, I am being saved and I shall be saved. Salvation isn't a single event in the way I understand scripture.

When one is baptized, they are promised the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:28) as well as the security that they are saved. But this is just the beginning because as we learn more about God's will for our lives expressed through the teachings of Jesus, we find out that He can save us from ourselves and the effects of others in many ways. Addicts become sober and marriages held in sanctity. We learn a better way to live in community and by doing so, are saved from much misfortune and pain.

I could go on, but sanctification will occur all the days of our lives and works toward our transformation. We are not saved without being transformed. If we're not transformed, we're we really saved?

 

[Truthfrees]

I understand.

For me, I view sanctification as some pretty powerful stuff. For me, salvation isn't a destiny.... It's a state. I am saved, I am being saved and I shall be saved. Salvation isn't a single event in the way I understand scripture.

When one is baptized, they are promised the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:28) as well as the security that they are saved. But this is just the beginning because as we learn more about God's will for our lives expressed through the teachings of Jesus, we find out that He can save us from ourselves and the effects of others in many ways. Addicts become sober and marriages held in sanctity. We learn a better way to live in community and by doing so, are saved from much misfortune and pain.

I could go on, but sanctification will occur all the days of our lives and works toward our transformation. We are not saved without being transformed. If we're not transformed, we're we really saved?

amen - i agree with all of this - every point is solid

 

[WIP]

On January 1 this year I began listening to an audio version of the Bible. Last week I was listening to Ezekiel and chapter 33:12-20 jumped out at me. I think it is fitting for this discussion.

12 “Therefore, son of man, say to your people, ‘If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.’ 13 If I tell a righteous person that they will surely live, but then they trust in their righteousness and do evil, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done. 14 And if I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ but they then turn away from their sin and do what is just and right— 15 if they give back what they took in pledge for a loan, return what they have stolen, follow the decrees that give life, and do no evil—that person will surely live; they will not die. 16 None of the sins that person has committed will be remembered against them. They have done what is just and right; they will surely live.

17 “Yet your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ But it is their way that is not just. 18 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, they will die for it. 19 And if a wicked person turns away from their wickedness and does what is just and right, they will live by doing so. 20 Yet you Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ But I will judge each of you according to your own ways.” NIV

 

[JLB]

On January 1 this year I began listening to an audio version of the Bible. Last week I was listening to Ezekiel and chapter 33:12-20 jumped out at me. I think it is fitting for this discussion.

12 “Therefore, son of man, say to your people, ‘If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.’ 13 If I tell a righteous person that they will surely live, but then they trust in their righteousness and do evil, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done. 14 And if I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ but they then turn away from their sin and do what is just and right— 15 if they give back what they took in pledge for a loan, return what they have stolen, follow the decrees that give life, and do no evil—that person will surely live; they will not die. 16 None of the sins that person has committed will be remembered against them. They have done what is just and right; they will surely live.

17 “Yet your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ But it is their way that is not just. 18 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, they will die for it. 19 And if a wicked person turns away from their wickedness and does what is just and right, they will live by doing so. 20 Yet you Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ But I will judge each of you according to your own ways.” NIV

It’s totally relevant to this discussion.

For me personally, I have a hard enough time getting people to just read and believe the New Testament scripture.


If someone denies what “depart from the faith” means, or what “lost” means, or even “will not inherit the kingdom of God” means, then I don’t even bother with Old Testament scriptures.


I usually just get “were not under the law now”,
Because “were under grace”.


Thanks WIP.


It’s a perfect scripture to read and meditate today.


Amen!!



JLB

 

[Truthfrees]

On January 1 this year I began listening to an audio version of the Bible. Last week I was listening to Ezekiel and chapter 33:12-20 jumped out at me. I think it is fitting for this discussion.

12 “Therefore, son of man, say to your people, ‘If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.’ 13 If I tell a righteous person that they will surely live, but then they trust in their righteousness and do evil, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done. 14 And if I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ but they then turn away from their sin and do what is just and right— 15 if they give back what they took in pledge for a loan, return what they have stolen, follow the decrees that give life, and do no evil—that person will surely live; they will not die. 16 None of the sins that person has committed will be remembered against them. They have done what is just and right; they will surely live.

17 “Yet your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ But it is their way that is not just. 18 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, they will die for it. 19 And if a wicked person turns away from their wickedness and does what is just and right, they will live by doing so. 20 Yet you Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ But I will judge each of you according to your own ways.” NIV

after reading this scripture are you saying it supports saved people losing their salvation and wicked people becoming saved?

 

[WIP]

after reading this scripture are you saying it supports saved people losing their salvation and wicked people becoming saved?

One of the things I seem to gain every year when I listen to the Bible including the Old Testament is that it gives an insight into the person and character of God. It helps us understand who God is and helps us know Him better taking some of the mystery out of who He is.

If we pay attention we can hear God say it hundreds of times throughout the Bible that God does what He does so we will "know He is Lord" and I believe it was also in part why He inspired the Bible to be put to pen, so-to-speak.

Isn't verse 20 repeated in the New Testament by Jesus Himself that we will be judged by what we do?

 

[Truthfrees]

One of the things I seem to gain every year when I listen to the Bible including the Old Testament is that it gives an insight into the person and character of God. It helps us understand who God is and helps us know Him better taking some of the mystery out of who He is.

If we pay attention we can hear God say it hundreds of times throughout the Bible that God does what He does so we will "know He is Lord" and I believe it was also in part why He inspired the Bible to be put to pen, so-to-speak.

Isn't verse 20 repeated in the New Testament by Jesus Himself that we will be judged by what we do?

ok - i see what you mean - the character of God is something wonderful to learn about - He is amazing

 

[JLB]

This part is eye opening -


If I tell a righteous person that they will surely live, but then they trust in their righteousness and do evil, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done. Ezekiel 33:13

• none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done.

@ Truthfrees. Does this apply to us today?





JLB

 

[WIP]

ok - i see what you mean - the character of God is something wonderful to learn about - He is amazing

What I believe is the answer lies in the whole of Scripture and not just a single part. We cannot earn our salvation, not because it isn't possible for Jesus proved it is but because it isn't possible with man as man has thoroughly proved this too. I also believe it is dangerous to rest on salvation. To think one can be saved by a single act, later reject the gift, and still receive the gift in my view is self-righteousness. God will not be mocked. We have received a gift of life and now have a responsibility to live that life reflecting that which we have received.

 

[Truthfrees]

searching through your posts to complete your pm request i came upon this

This is what you keep saying, and this is what I keep pointing out.
The sheep that became lost belonged to the Shepherd.

• “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them,

So your mistaken when you say “if anyone leaves they never did belong”.
This mindset gets erased in the parable of the lost sheep.
I asked you before, and now I’m asking you again, in all humility, fear and trembling, and love, please brother, please stop promoting the idea that if one of His sheep leaves Him, they never belonged.
It’s just not biblical.
Please understand what this puts into people’s mind...

They wander away from Him, and instead of repenting, they believe they were never one of His anyway, so they don’t bother to repent, and return to Him, (being beat down with shame and guilt, and discouragement), who is waiting to restore them.

JLB

ok -let's see if we can agree on this - are the following 3 different types of people?

1. 1 John 2:19 says when people leave they never belonged -

2. Matthew 7:21-23 says they are lawless and He NEVER knew them

3. Matthew 18:10-14 - Luke 15:1-7 - Luke 15:8-10 - Luke 15:11-24 says when they are sinning they are called lost and/or dead - when they repent of their sin and come back home they are called found and/or alive

 

[WIP]

searching through your posts to complete your pm request i came upon this

ok -let's see if we can agree on this - are the following 3 different types of people?

1. 1 John 2:19 says when people leave they never belonged -

2. Matthew 7:21-23 says they are lawless and He NEVER knew them

3. Matthew 18:10-14 - Luke 15:1-7 - Luke 15:8-10 - Luke 15:11-24 says when they are sinning they are called lost and/or dead - when they repent of their sin and come back home they are called found and/or alive

Good posts. In your reference to Matthew 18 Jesus says He came to save the lost. Who are the lost? Scripture also says that Jesus only came to the lost sheep of Israel. God has always had a soft spot for the descendants of Abram for He made a covenant with him, which was repeated with Isaac and Jacob. When the Israelites pledged their faith in God, were they not saved? Yet, they repeatedly turned away and when Jesus came He considered them lost. Do you think they were still saved in their rebellious state and can you demonstrate how this can be?

 

[Truthfrees]

Good posts. In your reference to Matthew 18 Jesus says He came to save the lost. Who are the lost?

from Matthew 18 it seems the lost are the sinners who need to repent

 

[WIP]

from Matthew 18 it seems the lost are the sinners who need to repent

Wasn't all of Israel important or just the one, Nathaniel? Paul was a lost Israelite until after Jesus appeared to him some time after His crucifixion, right?

 

[Truthfrees]

Wasn't all of Israel important or just the one, Nathaniel? Paul was a lost Israelite until after Jesus appeared to him some time after His crucifixion, right?

what do you mean by still saved?

Do you think they were still saved in their rebellious state and can you demonstrate how this can be?

 

[JLB]

searching through your posts to complete your pm request i came upon this ok -let's see if we can agree on this - are the following 3 different types of people?

1. 1 John 2:19 says when people leave they never belonged -

2. Matthew 7:21-23 says they are lawless and He NEVER knew them

3. Matthew 18:10-14 - Luke 15:1-7 - Luke 15:8-10 - Luke 15:11-24 says when they are sinning they are called lost and/or dead - when they repent of their sin and come back home they are called found and/or alive

The sheep belongs to the Sheppard.

It is His sheep.

This sheep does not belong to the devil.

This sheep is His sheep.

This sheep of His, wanders away and becomes lost.


He then goes and searches for His sheep.


“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?


This sheep is not considered to be a sinner, until he wanders away and becomes lost.


He was justified, then he wandered away, in which he was declared to be a sinner, in need of repentance.


He was just.

He became unjust.


Just exactly what Ezekiel 33 says.


There is no scenario here whereby the sheep was a church attendant that was never saved.





JLB

 

[JLB]

no one could be born again until after the cross

I’ve heard this my whole life.



I’ve just never found it in scripture.


The fact is Jesus refers to the Church in Matthew 18, and how the Church is to restore their own brothers who go astray.





JLB

 

[MarkT]

Ok. I’ll try it again.



Keep in mind that Jesus knows what He Himself means by “believe”.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

Jesus Christ Himself plainly said “believe” and be saved.

When the person “believes” they are saved according to the Lord Jesus.


But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


These on the rock, did in fact “believe”.

• when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

These folks did in fact, according to Jesus, “believe”.

• We know these folks believed because Jesus said they “believe”.
• We know they “believed” because Jesus said they received the word, with joy.
• We know they “believe” because they were being persecuted as Christians, which is why they fell away.

JLB

The second person has no root in himself, believes for a while, but then he falls away. So he is not saved.

 

[MarkT]

The sheep belongs to the Sheppard.

It is His sheep.

This sheep does not belong to the devil.

This sheep is His sheep.

This sheep of His, wanders away and becomes lost.


He then goes and searches for His sheep.


“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?


This sheep is not considered to be a sinner, until he wanders away and becomes lost.


He was justified, then he wandered away, in which he was declared to be a sinner, in need of repentance.


He was just.

He became unjust.


Just exactly what Ezekiel 33 says.


There is no scenario here whereby the sheep was a church attendant that was never saved.





JLB

What happens after he finds his sheep which was lost in the wilderness? There is rejoicing.

But then the rejoicing is premature if the sheep can become lost again. Can the sheep lose their salvation?

 

[JLB]

The second person has no root in himself, believes for a while, but then he falls away. So he is not saved.

Yes sir.

He is not saved any longer.



JLB