Some of the best NT verses threatening loss of salvation

[MarkT]

But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Matthew 13:20-21


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:12-13

The condition Jesus gives us for salvation is to believe.

• lest they should believe and be saved.

These folks in group 2 did in fact believe.


What did they fall away from if they were never saved?

• The phrase “received the word” indicates believing the Gospel.

• Jesus said they believed.

• The reason they fell away was because they were being persecuted as Christians; Believers.

JLB

This is what you get when you mix those who have no understanding, so that they can not believe and be saved, with those who have no root or not much root, so that they only believe for a while.

 

[ezra]

they have no root in themselves

good job on scriptures but once again they HAD NO ROOT == no Jesus

root,
ῥίζαν (rhizan)
Noun - Accusative Feminine Singular
Strong's Greek 4491: A root, shoot, source; that which comes from the root, a descendent. Apparently a primary word; a 'root'.

 

[MarkT]

to only those who DON'T believe you can lose your salvation

so far we have been discussing scriptures that are easy to refute because the people had no root etc which means they really never were believers in the first place

i have a few questions that i haven't worked out yet - what is the parable of the wheat and tares about? - how can someone be a plant from the devil? - what does that mean and how does that happen? -

God creates us all so satan did not create them - so does this mean that just as we heard the Word of God and received it making us the good ground where seed grew and produced fruit - is there something like that that the devil does? - does the devil speak words to people that they believe and receive? - meaning they become a plant of the devil?

also wheat and tares look so much alike that it is hard to tell which is which until the plant is mature and the wheat has grain heads and the tares have no grain only fronds for heads

also when mature the grain heads bow and the frond headed tares don't

and the tare roots and the wheat roots intertwine in the ground so if by some miracle a person could tell for sure that an immature plant is a tare - if they pulled it up they would take the young wheat plant too because the roots are inseparable - i'm sure there is some spiritual meaning in that for us too

anyway these are some of the questions i have and i would like to understand

God plants his sons. The Devil plants his sons. The word of God falls like rain on the good and the bad, so both come up at the same time. God gives them life - intelligence, the ability to see and hear his word, so they are without excuse.

The sons of the evil one are liars and murders like their father, the devil, who is the father of all lies. They share in the same spirit as the devil. They serve their father, the Devil.

These are those who oppose God and deny his Son. False prophets, haters of God, liars, murderers, godless atheists, agnostics.

 

[Truthfrees]

I like to start different types of threads in the theology forum. Threads that do not cause dissension, but rather promote unity and differing opinions because the different opinions are of little matter.

OSAS, Eternal Security, Perseverance of the Saints...is not something of little matter. It's very important ....

Perhaps we could start with explaining the distinctions in these 3 very closely related doctrine?

I'm sorry that I have to leave shortly, but I'll start with
OSAS:

Once saved Always saved means that once a person has been saved...nothing they do can take that salvation away.
As I've posted from other forums, and as we read right here on this site, some believe that they can sin all they want to and still not lose their salvation..NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO.

Can we agree that THIS is wrong?
Maybe we can stop calling it OSAS?
The problem is that those of us, here, on this particular thread are NOT going to change the language of every single believer out there....so OSAS will continue to be used incorrectly, really meaning something else (in my opinion they really mean eternal security).

Maybe someone else can explain Eternal Security?
OR I'll be back later.

(E.S.-----being secure in Christ).

i think everyone here agrees that sinning is not acceptable - therefore none of us are osas by your definition

 

[Truthfrees]

Oops.
One last thing...
You like terms...
How about these:

FALL AWAY
IF YOU CONTINUE
LOST
BELIEVE FOR A WHILE
ERASE FROM THE BOOK OF LIFE
HE WHO OVERCOMES
ENDURE TO THE END
ABIDE IN HIM
CUT THE BRANCHES

so many more...
came to mind while getting ready...
the Holy Spirit always gives us the words!

amen - these are all scriptures - if we stick to scripture phrases that might cut out a lot of disagreement

it really is our own words that we fight over - but none of us fight over the scripture words

 

[Truthfrees]

God plants his sons. The Devil plants his sons. The word of God falls like rain on the good and the bad, so both come up at the same time. God gives them life - intelligence, the ability to see and hear his word, so they are without excuse.

The sons of the evil one are liars and murders like their father, the devil, who is the father of all lies. They share in the same spirit as the devil. They serve their father, the Devil.

These are those who oppose God and deny his Son. False prophets, haters of God, liars, murderers, godless atheists, agnostics.

when? - at what point?

 

[GodsGrace]

your never going to get a real answer both sides has good points i studied it for years.. my conclusion. i had rather leave this life knowing i tried to live for Him yes i have failed many times. but i get back up dust my self off approach the throne of Grace with Boldness

I already have my answer Ezra.

As I've stated many times, the N.T. is a complete thought.
I don't pull verses out except for discussing scripture on here.
Jesus hates sin.
He hates disobedience.
He wants disciples.
Someone that is not a disciple is not pleasing to Jesus.

 

[GodsGrace]

i think everyone here agrees that sinning is not acceptable - therefore none of us are osas by your definition

i think we all even agree that someone who thinks sinning is ok and keeps sinning without a 2nd thought is not saved

the only disagreement we seem to have is some of us believe they were never saved as per 1 John 2:9 and some of us believe they lost their salvation

so it would be nice to put this osas issue to bed as there are numerous threads about this matter

it would really be nice if we could move onto were they ever saved or did they lose their salvation

Agreed. Let's move on to your point of interest.

The question is:
Speaking about those that fall away from the faith and belief in Jesus....

1. Were they never really saved to begin with?

2. Did they lose their salvation?

To clarify...:
To lose salvation and/or
To become lost again has the same meaning.

To start off, I'd say number 2.
Because of verses such as:
2 Peter 2:20-22

If someone could give a reasonable exegesis for these verses, I'd be willing to reconsider -- but I haven't heard a logical explanation yet.

 

[MarkT]

when? - at what point?

When the soul enters the body, I guess.

 

[GodsGrace]

When the soul enters the body, I guess.

I'm not sure Truthfrees is around and I'm also interested in your response.

I THINK he meant to ask if God chooses us to be saved or if we become saved at the time when we come to believe.

(I apologize to him if this is not right...
but it IS what I'D like to know)...

Your answer is when the soul enters the body.
Do you mean that we become born again by God's decision when the soul enters the body??

 

[GodsGrace]

FreeGrace

I cannot find the post now....sorry.
However I did read the two links you posted re the aorist tense.

Most understand the aorist tense to mean an action taken in the "past" which continues onward.

Is this what you believe?
In which case, this would be false.

Here is a simple explanation of what the aorist tense is:

If the writer is referring to an action that happened in past time, he could refer to it as either progressive (by using the imperfect tense) or as merely a simple occurrence, with no emphasis on the action's progress (by using the aorist tense).

your source: http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/inter-tense.htm

I do believe we really should not be speaking about the Greek since we're not professors of that language and do not speak it. I hear most explain the aorist tense in the way I mentioned above and, as you can see, it is not what it means.

I believe the English is sufficient to speak about biblical doctrine. I DO believe it's good to know that in the original Greek TO KNOW means more than to be aware of,
HEAR means more than an audible noise
BELIEVE means more than to know...

Can't think of much more that we need...

 

[Truthfrees]

Agreed. Let's move on to your point of interest.

The question is:
Speaking about those that fall away from the faith and belief in Jesus....

1. Were they never really saved to begin with?

2. Did they lose their salvation?

To clarify...:
To lose salvation and/or
To become lost again has the same meaning.

To start off, I'd say number 2.
Because of verses such as:
2 Peter 2:20-22

If someone could give a reasonable exegesis for these verses, I'd be willing to reconsider -- but I haven't heard a logical explanation yet.

sounds excellent

 

[Truthfrees]

When the soul enters the body, I guess.

I'm not sure Truthfrees is around and I'm also interested in your response.

I THINK he meant to ask if God chooses us to be saved or if we become saved at the time when we come to believe.

(I apologize to him if this is not right...
but it IS what I'D like to know)...

Your answer is when the soul enters the body.
Do you mean that we become born again by God's decision when the soul enters the body??

no i was asking at what point does someone become a plant of the devil? - if tares are planted by the devil when did he plant them? -

 

[ezra]

2 Peter 2:20-22

this and the scripture i think it is in hebrews ..is actually widely debated on the meaning


this is what barnes commentary has to say
Verse 20
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world - This does not necessarily mean that they had been true Christians, and had fallen from grace. People may outwardly reform, and escape from the open corruptions which prevail around them, or which they had themselves practiced, and still have no true grace at heart.

Through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesses Christ - Neither does This imply that they were true Christians, or that they had ever had any saving knowledge of the Redeemer. There is a knowledge of the doctrines and duties of religion which may lead sinners to abandon their outward vices, which has no connection with saving grace. They may profess religion, and may Know enough of religion to understand that it requires them to abandon their vicious habits, and still never be true Christians.

They are again entangled therein and overcome - The word rendered “entangled,” ( ἐμπλέκωemplekōfrom which is derived our word “implicate,” means to braid in, to interweave; then to involve in, to entangle. It means here that they become implicated in those vices like an animal that is entangled in a net.

The latter end is worse with them than the beginning - This is usually the case. Apostates become worse than they were before their professed conversion. “Reformed” drunkards, if they go back to their “cups” again, become more abandoned than ever. Thus, it is with those who have been addicted to any habits of vice, and who profess to become religious, and then fall away. The “reasons” for this may be:

(1)that they are willing now to show to others that they are no longer under the restraints by which they had professedly bound themselves;

(2)that God gives them up to indulgence with fewer restraints than formerly; and,

(3)their old companions in sin may be at special pains to court their society, and to lead them into temptation, in order to obtain a triumph over virtue and religion.
Adam Clarke Commentary
The pollutions of the world - Sin in general, and particularly superstition, idolatry, and lasciviousness. These are called μιασματα, miasmata, things that infect, pollute, and defile. The word was anciently used, and is in use at the present day, to express those noxious particles of effluvia proceeding from persons infected with contagious and dangerous diseases; or from dead and corrupt bodies, stagnant and putrid waters, marshes etc., by which the sound and healthy may be infected and destroyed. The world is here represented as one large, putrid marsh, or corrupt body, sending off its destructive miasmata everywhere and in every direction, so that none can escape its contagion, and none can be healed of the great epidemic disease of sin, but by the mighty power and skill of God. St. Augustine has improved on this image: "The whole world," says he, "is one great diseased man, lying extended from east to west, and from north to south; and to heal this great sick man, the almighty Physician descended from heaven." Now, it is by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, as says St. Peter, that we escape the destructive influence of these contagious miasmata . But if, after having been healed, and escaped the death to which we were exposed, we get again entangled, εμπλακεντες, enfolded, enveloped with them; then the latter end will be worse than the beginning: forasmuch as we shall have sinned against more light, and the soul, by its conversion to God, having had all its powers and faculties greatly improved, is now, being repolluted, more capable of iniquity than before, and can bear more expressively the image of the earthly.
Verse 21
For it had been better for them not to have known - For the reasons assigned above; because they have sinned against more mercy, are capable of more sin, and are liable to greater punishment.
The holy commandment - The whole religion of Christ is contained in this one commandment, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, with all thy mind, and with all thy strength; and thy neighbor as thyself." He who obeys this great commandment, and this by the grace of Christ is possible to every man, is saved from sinning either against his God or against his neighbor. Nothing less than this does the religion of Christ require
this appears to be two different interpretation .. which is what i been saying each one has a different one,

 

[ezra]

no i was asking at what point does someone become a plant of the devil? - if tares are planted by the devil when did he plant them? - i am trying to understand how a person can be planted by the devil and is growing up among the wheat as per the parable of the tares and wheat

they grow up among the wheat - so that means they are among us - looking like believers - but not ever being believers because their seed is that of a tare -

so i asked does this happen when we are presented with the gospel and each have to decide for or against Jesus?

actually this is fairly easy in some ways others not there will always be counterfeit Christians the devil him self can transform into a angel of Light while we might spot therm in the church the counterfeit has to grow among the real thing.. imo God has given us discernment so as we are not fallen for them /wiles . in the End God will separate the real from the fake. sometimes he exposes them openly . other times come judgment he will take care of it.

 

[Truthfrees]

this and the scripture i think it is in hebrews ..is actually widely debated on the meaning


this is what barnes commentary has to say
Verse 20
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world - This does not necessarily mean that they had been true Christians, and had fallen from grace. People may outwardly reform, and escape from the open corruptions which prevail around them, or which they had themselves practiced, and still have no true grace at heart.

Through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesses Christ - Neither does This imply that they were true Christians, or that they had ever had any saving knowledge of the Redeemer. There is a knowledge of the doctrines and duties of religion which may lead sinners to abandon their outward vices, which has no connection with saving grace. They may profess religion, and may Know enough of religion to understand that it requires them to abandon their vicious habits, and still never be true Christians.

They are again entangled therein and overcome - The word rendered “entangled,” ( ἐμπλέκωemplekōfrom which is derived our word “implicate,” means to braid in, to interweave; then to involve in, to entangle. It means here that they become implicated in those vices like an animal that is entangled in a net.

The latter end is worse with them than the beginning - This is usually the case. Apostates become worse than they were before their professed conversion. “Reformed” drunkards, if they go back to their “cups” again, become more abandoned than ever. Thus, it is with those who have been addicted to any habits of vice, and who profess to become religious, and then fall away. The “reasons” for this may be:

(1)that they are willing now to show to others that they are no longer under the restraints by which they had professedly bound themselves;

(2)that God gives them up to indulgence with fewer restraints than formerly; and,

(3)their old companions in sin may be at special pains to court their society, and to lead them into temptation, in order to obtain a triumph over virtue and religion.
Adam Clarke Commentary
The pollutions of the world - Sin in general, and particularly superstition, idolatry, and lasciviousness. These are called μιασματα, miasmata, things that infect, pollute, and defile. The word was anciently used, and is in use at the present day, to express those noxious particles of effluvia proceeding from persons infected with contagious and dangerous diseases; or from dead and corrupt bodies, stagnant and putrid waters, marshes etc., by which the sound and healthy may be infected and destroyed. The world is here represented as one large, putrid marsh, or corrupt body, sending off its destructive miasmata everywhere and in every direction, so that none can escape its contagion, and none can be healed of the great epidemic disease of sin, but by the mighty power and skill of God. St. Augustine has improved on this image: "The whole world," says he, "is one great diseased man, lying extended from east to west, and from north to south; and to heal this great sick man, the almighty Physician descended from heaven." Now, it is by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, as says St. Peter, that we escape the destructive influence of these contagious miasmata . But if, after having been healed, and escaped the death to which we were exposed, we get again entangled, εμπλακεντες, enfolded, enveloped with them; then the latter end will be worse than the beginning: forasmuch as we shall have sinned against more light, and the soul, by its conversion to God, having had all its powers and faculties greatly improved, is now, being repolluted, more capable of iniquity than before, and can bear more expressively the image of the earthly.
Verse 21
For it had been better for them not to have known - For the reasons assigned above; because they have sinned against more mercy, are capable of more sin, and are liable to greater punishment.
The holy commandment - The whole religion of Christ is contained in this one commandment, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, with all thy mind, and with all thy strength; and thy neighbor as thyself." He who obeys this great commandment, and this by the grace of Christ is possible to every man, is saved from sinning either against his God or against his neighbor. Nothing less than this does the religion of Christ require
this appears to be two different interpretation .. which is what i been saying each one has a different one,

thanks for those 2 commentaries -

 

[ezra]

at what point does someone become a plant of the devil?

we will never know look at Jim Jones my understanding he was a AOG minister
James Warren Jones (May 13, 1931 – November 18, 1978) was an American religious cult leader who, along with his inner circle, initiated and was responsible for a mass suicide and mass murder in Jonestown, Guyana.

Jones was the founder and leader of the Peoples Temple cult which he began in Indiana during the 1950s. He was officially ordained in 1956 by the Independent Assemblies of God and in 1964 by the Disciples of Christ. He moved the Temple to California in 1965 and gained notoriety with its activities in San Francisco in the early 1970s. He then relocated to Guyana. In 1978, media reports surfaced that human rights abuses were taking place in the Peoples Temple in Jonestown. U.S. Representative Leo Ryan led a delegation into the commune to investigate what was going on; Ryan and others were murdered by gunfire while boarding a return flight with defectors. Jones subsequently committed a mass murder-suicide of 918 of his followers, 304 of whom were children, almost all by cyanide poisoning via Flavor Aid.

was he ever of the truth ? i would like to say no but i dont know God did and i would say he is in torments

 

[ezra]

thanks for those 2 commentaries - my pastor says the same as you - this topic has been debated for a long time and it has not yet been settled among christians - he says he has studied it for a long time and he has not known for sure which is right - he says the best thing is to talk to people who are sinning about stopping - and talk to those who are afraid they might not be saved about how to be sure - and have nothing to do with those who love living in sin

i like your pastor upfront honest i had rather be told i dont know than be fed a line of bull

Comprehensive Overview of the Bible Commentaries available FREELY on StudyLight.org!

StudyLight.org provides the most extensive list of quality online Bible commentaries freely available on the Internet.

www.studylight.org

 

[Truthfrees]

actually this is fairly easy in some ways others not there will always be counterfeit Christians the devil him self can transform into a angel of Light while we might spot therm in the church the counterfeit has to grow among the real thing.. imo God has given us discernment so as we are not fallen for them /wiles . in the End God will separate the real from the fake. sometimes he exposes them openly . other times come judgment he will take care of it.

that is how it appears to me too - real vs fake - law keepers vs lawless - Godly vs ungodly - you can find them all growing together wherever christians gather - the fake like to hang around christians for some reason - and they love pretending they are christians

i personally know some who were raised in satanism and they wanted out - they said many of them went to seminaries and got ordained because one of the greatest pleasures a satanist has is to become a pastor of a christian church and lead the people astray as much as possible - the ones i know went to seminary for this purpose but got born again in seminary and had to hide it from their leaders because they would be pulled out of seminary and they wanted to keep attending because they wanted to be around christians and away from the coven people -

 

[ezra]

that is why when the workers found the tares/Darnell wheat growing with the real..they wanted to pull it up..BUT God said no you will uproot the real thing.. so he said harvest i will take care of it... not a farmer never been around wheat .but i been told Darnell wheat tares looks almost like real wheat http://luirig.altervista.org/cpm/albums/bot-054/lolium-temulentum2787.jpg tares / real wheat https://i1.treknature.com/photos/8528/real_gold_-wheat_crop.jpg