Some of the best NT verses threatening loss of salvation

[JLB]

and because they have no root - aka not in Christ the ROOT - Luke 8:13

The people don’t have roots.


The seed which represents the Gospel message doesn’t have a root system that is deep, able to draw moisture because the soil is rocky, and it has no depth of earth.


Every plant that sprouts up has some roots.

https://wonderopolis.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/bean-seeds_shutterstock_57850783.jpg

What is being taught by Jesus is the condition of the heart is not prepared for times of persecution.

IOW It’s shallow.


Jesus already explain that the seed that never sprouts because the birds of the air, (which represents the devil) come and take it away before it has a chance to germinate.


This first group represents those who never believe.


The second group on the rocky soil does in fact believe, because Jesus said they believed, which is represented by the sprouting of the seed into a plant.




JLB

 

[Truthfrees]

to only those who DON'T believe you can lose your salvation

so far we have been discussing scriptures that are easy to refute because the people had no root etc which means they really never were believers in the first place

i have a few questions that i haven't worked out yet - what is the parable of the wheat and tares about? - how can someone be a plant from the devil? - what does that mean and how does that happen? -

God creates us all so satan did not create them - so does this mean that just as we heard the Word of God and received it making us the good ground where seed grew and produced fruit - is there something like that that the devil does? - does the devil speak words to people that they believe and receive? - meaning they become a plant of the devil?

also wheat and tares look so much alike that it is hard to tell which is which until the plant is mature and the wheat has grain heads and the tares have no grain only fronds for heads

also when mature the grain heads bow and the frond headed tares don't

and the tare roots and the wheat roots intertwine in the ground so if by some miracle a person could tell for sure that an immature plant is a tare - if they pulled it up they would take the young wheat plant too because the roots are inseparable - i'm sure there is some spiritual meaning in that for us too

anyway these are some of the questions i have and i would like to understand

 

[Truthfrees]

another question i have for those who believe that people who left never belonged:- still working this through and wanted input

there are scriptures talking about willful sinners who can never repent and receive salvation because there is no sacrifice left to cover willful sin - Hebrew 10:26-31 - and the unpardonable sin issue of speaking against the Holy Spirit - Mark 3:28-29 - Matthew 12:31-32

 

[JLB]

so far we have been discussing scriptures that are easy to refute because the people had no root

Your have refuted nothing.

You have only proven you do not understand what is being taught.


The scripture does not say the people had no root.

People do not have roots.


You are mixing together the parabolic with the literal, in your attempt to create a narrative that does not exist.


The seed sprouts and has roots.


Jesus taught that the seed that is stolen by the birds represents people who do not believe.


That is the group that does not believe.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12


This is the only group that does not believe, initially.


The next group does in fact believe.


It’s no secret. It’s plainly stated by Jesus.

• when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe...

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


There is no doubt whatsoever that these believed.


They received the word with joy.

That phrase, “receive the word” plainly means believe the Gospel.

• Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. Acts 2:41

• Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. Acts 8:14-15

• Now the apostles and brethren who were in Judea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God. Acts 11:1

• And you became followers of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Spirit,1 Thessalonians 1:6

Furthermore we also know that these who believed for awhile, did so because they were persecuted for receiving the Gospel message and becoming Christian’s; Believers.




JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Remember we are discussing scripture and what Jesus taught.

He taught that some will believe, and because of being persecuted they will only believe for a while.

If a person believes they are saved.

Jesus also taught that whoever believes HAS (as in currently possesses) eternal life, from John 5:24 and 6:47. This indicates eternal life is possessed WHEN one believes.

If they believe for a while then fall away from Christ, because they were persecuted for being a believer, then they are no longer saved.

Yet, there are no verses that say anything close to this.

In fact, Jesus was clear about the future of those He gives eternal life (believers); they shall never perish. John 10:28

Therefore, from the moment a person believes in Christ, they HAVE eternal life, they ARE saved, and they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

It couldn't be any more clearly stated by Jesus.

 

[FreeGrace]

No it’s not a court of law.

However, one Day we all will stand before the Judge to be judged according to our deeds.

who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath.
Romans 2:6-8

Here is who will receive eternal life on that Day -

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

I encourage you to read further into Romans, to understand what Paul was saying in Rom 2:6-8.

In v.12 he said this: "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law."

Then he repeats the point of v.6-8 - "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous."

However, before anyone can assume it is even possible for any human being to actually fulfill either 2:6-8 or 2:13, Paul wrote this:

3:9 - What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.

This proves that no person can or will be declared righteous by keeping the law.

This is confirmed in 3:20 - Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Then, just to make sure his point has been made, he wrote 3:23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Therefore, since all human beings are sinners, and have sinned, no one can be declared righteous by keeping the law.

This is the reason Jesus Christ had to come to earth, life a perfect life, which did fulfill the requirements of the law, and go to the cross and pay the penalty of everyone's sins.

He did what every human being can't do.

 

[FreeGrace]

When one studies the actual scripture, we see that Jesus gave the condition for receiving what was promised in verse 28.

Actually, we don't see any such "condition" from v.27. What we do see is a simple description of what Jesus' sheep do.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
Hear means to listen with the intent of obeying; which’s results in following.

These are descriptions of what Jesus' sheep do. The language is very clear.

Those who hear for a while then wander away and become lost, must repent and be reconciled back to the Lord, or they will remain lost.

This only combines different contexts and trying to make a point that the Bible never makes.

While the prodigal was deacribed as being "dead" by his father, he neither died nor lost his sonship with his father. So just using the words "dead" or "lost" any old way one wants isn't biblical scholarship.

Jesus was extremely clear about the future of those He gives eternal life; they shall never perish. And previously He explained WHEN one receives eternal life; WHEN one believes. John 5:24 and 6:47

The beloved apostle John re-iterated that same point in 1 John 5:11 and 13.

 

[ezra]

For verily I say unto you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see the things which ye see, and saw them not; and to hear the things which ye hear, and heard them not.


The seed is the word of God.


The wayside soil is the hardened hearer.

The shallow soil is the unstable hearer.

The thorny ground is the hearer who permits other things to choke out the word.

The good ground is the faithful hearer who bears fruit.

The birds of the air are the evil one.

The sun's heat is tribulation and persecution.

The thorns are the cares, riches, and pleasures of life.

The various multiples of yield are the variable fruitfulness of hearers.

The sudden sprouting of seed on shallow soil stands for the ease with which unstable souls are converted.

The sower stands for God.SIZE>

 

[JLB]

Jesus also taught that whoever believes HAS (as in currently possesses) eternal life, from John 5:24 and 6:47. This indicates eternal life is possessed WHEN one believes.

Yes.

As long as we continue to believe we have eternal life.

Believe means obey.

As long as we continue to hear and obey, resulting in following, we continue to “know Him”, have eternal life.


That’s how we come to be “in Christ”, by believing.



He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36 NASB



JLB

 

[JLB]

I encourage you to read further into Romans, to understand what Paul was saying in Rom 2:6-8.

In v.12 he said this: "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law."

Then he repeats the point of v.6-8 - "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous."

However, before anyone can assume it is even possible for any human being to actually fulfill either 2:6-8 or 2:13, Paul wrote this:

3:9 - What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.

This proves that no person can or will be declared righteous by keeping the law.

This is confirmed in 3:20 - Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Then, just to make sure his point has been made, he wrote 3:23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Therefore, since all human beings are sinners, and have sinned, no one can be declared righteous by keeping the law.

This is the reason Jesus Christ had to come to earth, life a perfect life, which did fulfill the requirements of the law, and go to the cross and pay the penalty of everyone's sins.

He did what every human being can't do.

It’s very simple what Paul said in Romans 2:6-8, because he says it all through the entire book of Romans.


It’s about faith; The Obedience of faith.


Romans begins and ends with the obedience of faith.


Obeying the truth is how we saved, and how we continue to be saved.

It’s the same for all. There is no partiality with God.



But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.
Romans 2:5-11



Nothing we read in all of Romans or all of the New Testament will change the truth of these words.

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

JLB

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Your have refuted nothing.

You have only proven you do not understand what is being taught.


The scripture does not say the people had no root.

People do not have roots.


You are mixing together the parabolic with the literal, in your attempt to create a narrative that does not exist.


The seed sprouts and has roots.


Jesus taught that the seed that is stolen by the birds represents people who do not believe.


That is the group that does not believe.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12


This is the only group that does not believe, initially.


The next group does in fact believe.


It’s no secret. It’s plainly stated by Jesus.

• when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe...

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


There is no doubt whatsoever that these believed.


They received the word with joy.

That phrase, “receive the word” plainly means believe the Gospel.

• Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. Acts 2:41

• Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. Acts 8:14-15

• Now the apostles and brethren who were in Judea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God. Acts 11:1

• And you became followers of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Spirit,1 Thessalonians 1:6

Furthermore we also know that these who believed for awhile, did so because they were persecuted for receiving the Gospel message and becoming Christian’s; Believers.




JLB

Receive and believe do not mean the same thing.
No definitions, no thesaurus synonyms
In Luke 8:13;, switch the words receive and believe and it doesn't make sense.
Each word stands alone, thus making your answers here questionable at best.

 

[JLB]

Actually, we don't see any such "condition" from v.27. What we do see is a simple description of what Jesus' sheep do.


These are descriptions of what Jesus' sheep do. The language is very clear.


This only combines different contexts and trying to make a point that the Bible never makes.

While the prodigal was deacribed as being "dead" by his father, he neither died nor lost his sonship with his father. So just using the words "dead" or "lost" any old way one wants isn't biblical scholarship.

Jesus was extremely clear about the future of those He gives eternal life; they shall never perish. And previously He explained WHEN one receives eternal life; WHEN one believes. John 5:24 and 6:47

The beloved apostle John re-iterated that same point in 1 John 5:11 and 13.

So your saying that every born again Christian hears His Voice and follows Him, throughout their entire life and never disobey Him?



His sheep who do not continue to follow Him, will end up becoming lost.


It’s that simple.



“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7


The 100 sheep belong to the shepherd.


1 becomes lost.


Do the lost need salvation?

Do sinners need salvation by repenting?




JLB

 

[JLB]

Receive and believe do not mean the same thing.
No definitions, no thesaurus synonyms
In Luke 8:13;, switch the words receive and believe and it doesn't make sense.
Each word stands alone, thus making you answers here questionable at best.

Please read the scriptures and the context of the verses I gave that demonstrate what the biblical phrase “receive the word” means.

• when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe...

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13



They received the word with joy.

That phrase, “receive the word” plainly means believe the Gospel.

• Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. Acts 2:41

• Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. Acts 8:14-15

• Now the apostles and brethren who were in Judea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God. Acts 11:1

• And you became followers of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Spirit,1 Thessalonians 1:6

JLB

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Please read the scriptures and the context of the verses I gave that demonstrate what the biblical phrase “receive the word” means.

• when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe...

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13



They received the word with joy.

That phrase, “receive the word” plainly means believe the Gospel.

• Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. Acts 2:41

• Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. Acts 8:14-15

• Now the apostles and brethren who were in Judea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God. Acts 11:1

• And you became followers of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Spirit,1 Thessalonians 1:6

JLB

Luke 8:13;
These people are emotional hearers.
But due to their instability (have no root), when they are faced, with temptation, they fall away.
These are worldly hearers, never saved.

 

[JLB]

what is the parable of the wheat and tares about?

Sons of the kingdom and the sons of the wicked one.


He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.
Matthew 13:37-38


The tares are the sons of the wicked one and will never be saved.


The sons of the kingdom are the ones who can be born again and have the ability to produce “fruit”.


A tare looks just like wheat while growing, and the only way to tell the difference is in the time of harvest, the tare has no buds of wheat.


A tare is simply put a weed, that looks just like the wheat.


A modern day analogy is to compare this to male marijuana plant to the female marijuana plant that has the “buds”.

The male plant has the same leaves, just no buds.




JLB

 

[JLB]

God creates us all so satan did not create them

God created Adam and Eve, brother.

Adam and even pro-created their offspring.


God forms the spirit of man within them, even in their mother’s womb.


Does God put a spirit in a test tube baby that is created in a lab?


This is one example.




JLB

 

[ezra]

A modern day analogy is to compare this to male marijuana plant to the female marijuana plant that has the “buds”.

The male plant has the same leaves, just no buds.

interesting analogy--- the average person does not know this... soooooo JLB even though we disagree in some doctrine issues ..which is really no big deal .. with this description you paint a interesting back ground . most think you just plant seed and instant crop... curious what direction do you plant north south east or west

 

[JLB]

interesting analogy--- the average person does not know this... soooooo JLB even though we disagree in some doctrine issues ..which is really no big deal .. with this description you paint a interesting back ground . most think you just plant seed and instant crop... curious what direction do you plant north south east or west

Brother, when you plant something by putting a seed into the ground, there is no direction you place the seed. LOL!


The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.
Matthew 13:38


Sons of the kingdom who do not obey will wind up being cast into hell, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.


But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Matthew 8:12





JLB

 

[MarkT]

You are mixing the parabolic imagery, with the literal.

The seed, the sun and soil “represent” things.


The man does not grow roots.

The sun represents “persecution”.

The reason their is persecution is the person has believed and is therefore a believer.


You seem to ignore this simple fact.


He is persecuted “BECAUSE” he is a believer.


That’s the truth you are not acknowledging.



JLB

Yes he is persecuted because he is a believer. But if a man believes only for a while he is not saved.

Matthew 13:21
yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.

What do we mean by 'falls away'? It could be he falls away from the truth - Jesus was the Christ. So he denies Christ. Or he falls away from the teachings he received.

Remember we are discussing scripture and what Jesus taught.


He taught that some will believe, and because of being persecuted they will only believe for a while.


Scriptural Truth is not based on your cultural circumstances or perspective.


If a person believes they are saved.

If they believe for a while then fall away from Christ, because they were persecuted for being a believer, then they are no longer saved.



JLB

You're making two statements. You say if a person believes they are saved. Then you contradict yourself and say he is not saved or only saved for a while.

 

[GodsGrace]

Gentle correction. That is what Calvinists claim. There are non Calvinists who believe in eternal security.


The primary distinction of Arminianism is conditional salvation; meaning that one can lose salvation by a variety of ways.

I've shared John 10:28 with you many times. The verse is very clear. Those to whom Jesus gives eternal life shall never perish. Please note that Jesus did not provide any conditions for recipients to meet in order to never perish.

The simple fact of receiving the gift of eternal life means they shall never perish, because that is exactly what Jesus said.

Hi FG
Nice to have you back...

This seems to be a favored subject matter...Why are YOU so interested in it?

I'll tell you why I am...because of those who believe they can do nothing wrong once they are "born again". There are some out there you know. I'm not saying anyone here is,,,but I know for sure they exist. Since the N.T. teaches us obedience to God....this mode of thinking does cause me to worry for these people.

Calvinists can never know for sure that they are saved for two reasons:
1. They say God chooses them...so how to be sure God chose someone?

2. They have to get to the end of their life to know for sure that they persevered until the end.

I understand that there are different ways of believing in eternal security...I believe they're all wrong and I post scripture to show this. The scripture is overwhelming whereas there are very few verses regarding eternal salvation in a positive sense and I've said that the reason for this is because there was no such IDEA as OSAS back then so the language was not precisely measured...it was just never thought that anything the writers wrote could be taken that way.

I don't agree with all Arminius believed so I'm not an arminian...However, I DO believe in conditional salvation.
And the condition is very simple....
1 John 5:2-4
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

We choose to follow God...by this we can know we are saved.

We do our best to obey God...His commandments are not burdensome because we have the Holy Spirit to help us in our walk.

And that is the condition...CONTINUE to walk with the Holy Spirit....

John 8:31 Jesus Said:
31So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; "