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Some of the best NT verses threatening loss of salvation

ezra said:
that is why when the workers found the tares/Darnell wheat growing with the real..they wanted to pull it up..BUT God said no you will uproot the real thing.. so he said harvest i will take care of it... not a farmer never been around wheat .but i been told Darnell wheat tares looks almost like real wheat http://luirig.altervista.org/cpm/albums/bot-054/lolium-temulentum2787.jpg tares / real wheat https://i1.treknature.com/photos/8528/real_gold_-wheat_crop.jpg
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I've also heard that God did not want the tares to be pulled out because they might become wheat in the growing....that it only SEEMED like tares.

It could work both ways. Parables are told to teach a moral lesson...sometimes we make them say what we want them to say.

I'd like to get back to 2 Peter for now....
 
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wondering said:
I've also heard that God did not want the tares to be pulled out because they might become wheat in the growing....that it only SEEMED like tares.

It could work both ways. Parables are told to teach a moral lesson...sometimes we make them say what we want them to say.

I'd like to get back to 2 Peter for now....
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and ?????? who is keeping you from doing so ?
 
ezra said:
hmm put a band aid on that nerve ..i seemed to have stepped on.. there just men inspired i guess just comments like we have .. ECF had there comments just like the commentaries besides i did it show no 2 people agree
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I could get MANY commentators that agree with me...the internet is full of them.

And herein we have the comment again:

ECF had their comments just like the commentaries you posted.....

So someone who knew John Kennedy and wrote a book about him....knows just as much as someone that wrote a book about him 1,500 years after Kennedy died?

I'm going to start a thread on this....
 
wondering said:
Barnes and Adam Clarke.

Were they inspired?
Why is it OK for you to use their thoughts, and when I list the Early Church Father's that KNEW the Apostles personally (some of them) I get told that they were not inspired or that we shouldn't care what they believed.

This is a double standard.
I mention this because I think we should start paying some attention to the ECFs. I believe we should trust them more than modern commentators.

Maybe we should have a thread on this?
yes.

Anyway, I do want to say that WE cannot determine if a person is not saved. We do this when what happens to them....become lost again.....does not agree with our particular theology.

2 Peter is easy to understand when we accept what the N.T. teaches and stop saying that anyone that falls away was never saved to begin with.

WHAT are they falling away FROM??
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i didn't mean to give the impression commentaries were inspired - only scripture is inspired - i only thought it was interesting that even commentaries show both sides of this discussion

which men should we trust more? - ecf or commentators? - they both give their thoughts but none are scripture - i was told that mariology started with ecf and other strange ideas so imo scripture is the only thing we can trust - and all else we can use for informational purposes with care

the thing is we are trying to understand what the nt teaches - why is it that those who believe 1 John 2:19 applies to those that fall away / depart / leave are accused of not accepting scripture? - those that fall away did so because they were pretending - 2 Timothy 3:5 - it makes sense that one day they would fall away after pretending to be a believer -

they fell away from pretending they belong - Titus 1:16 - tares growing with the wheat roots intertwined - if all the pretend believers stopped fellowshipping with believers it would be easy to see who is real and who is fake wheat - but as 2 Peter 2 shows the pretenders like to deceive christians and lead them away from purity and into sin - why would fake believers take pleasure in this? - Romans 1:32 - 1 Timothy 6:3 - 1 Timothy 6:4 - 1 Timothy 6:5 - 2 Timothy 3:6 - they gain money power control etc by deceiving others
 
Truthfrees said:
i think everyone here agrees that sinning is not acceptable - therefore none of us are osas by your definition
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Bible Hub
Romans 14:4;
"Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand."
 
JLB said:
His sheep, sheep that belong to him, can indeed become lost.


  • having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them,
“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7



JLB
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According to the parable the sheep was in a lost state before he was found. So this is the sinner before the sinner repents. He is lost. Then he goes from being lost to being found. This is the sinner who repents and gains his life.

The parable is not about losing a sinner. The parable is about the Shepherd's great love for his sheep that he will leave 99 and go looking for the one who is lost.
 
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MarkT said:
According to the parable the sheep was in a lost state before he was found. So this is the sinner before the sinner repents. He is lost. Then he goes from being lost to being found. This is the sinner who repents and gains his life.

The parable is not about losing a sinner. The parable is about the Shepherd's great love for his sheep that he will leave 99 and go looking for the one who is lost.
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I don't understand how you can say the sheep was in a lost state before he was found when the Word specifically says, "What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them...." The Scripture clearly says the sheep was his, got lost, and then found again. I can't see how one can read this any other way.

It seems that you are in denial or are you saying a saved person is a sinner?
 
MarkT said:
According to the parable the sheep was in a lost state before he was found. So this is the sinner before the sinner repents. He is lost. Then he goes from being lost to being found. This is the sinner who repents and gains his life.

The parable is not about losing a sinner. The parable is about the Shepherd's great love for his sheep that he will leave 99 and go looking for the one who is lost.
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Sounds good, if you don't know what you're talking about.
 
WIP said:
I don't understand how you can say the sheep was in a lost state before he was found when the Word specifically says, "What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them...." The Scripture clearly says the sheep was his, got lost, and then found again. I can't see how one can read this any other way.

It seems that you are in denial or are you saying a saved person is a sinner?
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Same as the lost sheep of the house of Israel. They were his sheep, and they were in a lost state being without a shepherd. Jesus was sent to find them.

Likewise his Gentile sheep, who belong to his flock, were lost in the world (sinners) before they heard the Shepherd's voice.
 
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MarkT said:
Same as the lost sheep of the house of Israel. They were his sheep, and they were in a lost state being without a shepherd. Jesus was sent to find them.

Likewise his Gentile sheep, who belong to his flock, were lost in the world (sinners) before they heard the Shepherd's voice.
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Oh, I see. We're not those lost sheep those who had gone astray and been led astray?

I'm thinking of how the Israelites had turned away from God. Were they not lost and consequently those who they taught also lost along with them?

When Noah left the ark, he and his family were not lost but over time their ancestors turned their backs on God. Were they therefore not His but then gone astray? Were those descendants not the ones Jesus came for?
 
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WIP said:
Oh, I see. We're not those lost sheep those who had gone astray and been led astray?

I'm thinking of how the Israelites had turned away from God. We're they not lost and consequently those who they taught also list along with them?

When Noah left the ark, he and his family were not lost but over time their ancestors turned their backs on God. We're they therefore not His but then gone astray? We're those descendents not the ones Jesus came for?
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We were lost before we heard our Master's voice. We had no knowledge or understanding of God and we were headed for destruction.

But that's not the point. All I'm saying is we were lost before we were found.

Jesus was speaking in figures, used contrast.

Actually the parable creates an interesting contrast between those who need God and those who do not need God. Between those who are sick and in need of a physician, and those who are well and need no physician. As Jesus said,
Mark 2:17
And when Jesus heard it, he said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick; I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Likewise between those who need repentance and those who need no repentance. As the parable says. Luke 15:7

I take it God loves to be needed, because he only reveals himself to those who need him.

We were like lost sheep. We didn't have a shepherd until Jesus, through hearing and understanding the gospel.
 
MarkT said:
I take it God loves to be needed, because he only reveals himself to those who need him.
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I have to disagree. "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,..." Romans 1:20 NKJV
 
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WIP said:
I don't understand how you can say the sheep was in a lost state before he was found when the Word specifically says, "What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them...." The Scripture clearly says the sheep was his, got lost, and then found again. I can't see how one can read this any other way.

It seems that you are in denial or are you saying a saved person is a sinner?
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Yes. But the sheep has no knowledge or understanding, which means he can't find his way. Obviously he is not a believer at this point. He is lost in the world, following the world. Nevertheless the Shepherd knows him and he calls him by name. Then there is rejoicing in heaven.
 
WIP said:
I have to disagree. "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,..." Romans 1:20 NKJV
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Disagree with what? That God reveals himself to sinners? Those who need him?

I agree with what Paul said re. the godless and what can be known about God can be seen in the things he made.

19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; Romans 1:19-20 RSV
 
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MarkT said:
Disagree with what?
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Disagree with what you wrote, that God "only reveals himself to those who need him." The only way I could agree is by noting the fact that everyone needs Him but that is not what you meant by your statement otherwise there would be no point in making the statement in the first place. What I believe you meant is the same as what Jesus meant when He told the Pharisees it was not the healthy that He came for but the sick.
 
WIP said:
Disagree with what you wrote, that God "only reveals himself to those who need him." The only way I could agree is by noting the fact that everyone needs Him but that is not what you meant by your statement otherwise there would be no point in making the statement in the first place. What I believe you meant is the same as what Jesus meant when He told the Pharisees it was not the healthy that He came for but the sick.
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Ok. To those who are lost and without hope, he gives them hope.
 
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