Some of the serious NT warnings to the churches

[Jethro Bodine]

I reject that you have the understanding of James...

Let us take the book of James and climb to the top of Mt. Carmel and let's see.

Study up...

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro if this is all you were to say about justification unto salvation I could agree with you whole heartedly because I agree with what I hear you saying in this post!

Ah! I can die now! Mine eyes have seen somebody who can 'hear' what I've been trying to share in the forum!

(Okay, so I can't really see you, but you get it.)

Thank you.

 

[Mitspa]

I am thankfull God paid for ALL my sins past, present and future and that he did it perfectly. If you can lose your salvation then it is weak and of no value. But my God Saved me and it is forever. Thank you Lord for your mercy and Grace.

Amen josefnospam, welcome to the eternal Kingdom of God!
Let no man unsave you or weaken your confidence in this great truth, by way of seeming to warn you.

 

[Mitspa]

Mitspa? I've not heard you make this claim before. What should I think?

Well I have been in many of those debates we have on the forum about such things, and have defended this position with great zeal. But I do not see it as an issue that should hinder the gospel. I believe and I have seen with my own eyes that even those who have been taught that the Holy Spirit has somehow changed, can receive greater measures of the Holy Spirit when they believe a pure gospel. No one needs to twist the arm or provoke a believer into the greater moves of the Spirit, when they understand Gods great grace and love for them. They will as a child reaches for its mother, accept that which the Holy Spirit would give to them. I have seen this again and again, that when the bondage of religion and law are lifted that a believer is naturally open to more of the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Mitspa]

We've been through this before. Not all the warnings have to do with legalism. So, no, turning "from grace into legalism" is not "the only sin that causes a believer to fall from grace or to be cut off from Christ."

I did not say "all" I said that most of the strongest warnings of the NT are made to those who would turn from grace back into law.
Until one is has seen their own hypocricy and has understood the purpose of the law, to make ALL OF US wretched in the flesh. They cannot show others the power of grace over sin.

If one is still under law, they cannot deliver another from the flesh into the Spirit.

For sin will not have dominion over you, because you are not under law but under grace.

 

[Mitspa]

"12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom..." (James 2:12 NIV)

This doesn't mean we are justified (made righteous) by the works of the law. It means that the law, summed up in 'love your neighbor as yourself' is how we can tell if we've been faithful to walk in the Spirit, or not. But somehow you can only hear this as meaning 'turning back to the condemnation of law'.




Paul says that when we love we have fulfilled the law:

"...whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:8-10 NIV)

So, if I look at my life and see that I have, for example, lusted and coveted after my neighbor's spouse, and possessions I can see whether I really have been walking in the Spirit, or not. This is how the law does indeed act as 'judge' of those justified by faith in Christ.

And it is also how I can tell if someone else has been walking in the Spirit in regard to those things, too. That doesn't give me the right to condemn them to hell, pronouncing judgment on them. It does give me the right to warn them that if they continue on that path they will be destroyed. They can sort the rest out for themselves from there.


21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.” (Matthew 7:21, 24-27 NIV)

Sorry jethro you are as much in error today as you was in the past when we discussed "the perfect law of liberty" This NOT THE LAW OF MOSES! this is Pauls gospel.
2 Cor 3 But if the ministry of death written and engraved on stones. THE TEN COMMANMENTS
for letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2 Cor 3:3-11

Here is the clear contrast between the OLD AND THE NEW.

Paul goes on to say in many places and throughout his epistles that the Old Testament law brought bondage but the NEW TESTAMENT and the Spirit brings LIBERTY.

this is only a debate in your own mind, the scriptures make this issue very clear. Again I say James was not and did not teach contrary to Paul. The conflict is in your own desire to impose on others a law that you do not or cannot keep yourself.

The strength of sin is the law.
Sin will not have dominion over you because you are not under law but under grace.
So the gospel of grace is the "perfect law of liberty"

 

[francisdesales]

No kidding...

Yea, glad I came back for this! Perfect opportunity to humble myself and keep it to "wow"...

Regards

 

[Jethro Bodine]

For sin will not have dominion over you, because you are not under law but under grace.

But when sin does have dominion over you what does this mean?

I know the answer to that according to what you've been saying here, but I want you to answer the question.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Sorry jethro you are as much in error today as you was in the past when we discussed "the perfect law of liberty" This NOT THE LAW OF MOSES! this is Pauls gospel.

Read James carefully this morning. By James' own words your assertion is made completely and utterly false.

Perhaps you can be the next Christian to suddenly realize how wrong the church has been to relegate the entire law of Moses to the lost pages of history.

I'll see you at lunch, hopefully.

 

[francisdesales]

I did not say "all" I said that most of the strongest warnings of the NT are made to those who would turn from grace back into law.
Until one is has seen their own hypocricy and has understood the purpose of the law, to make ALL OF US wretched in the flesh. They cannot show others the power of grace over sin.

Where does the Bible state that the purpose of the law is to make all of us wretched in the flesh???

Is that your idea of God? Well, that makes sense, given that you think God is a liar who forms a law "impossible to follow" and "make us wretched", while inspiring Moses to tell everyone that it is "not difficult to follow". And how many pages of the Psalms would I have to cite to make this whole idea look foolish? :gah

The purpose of the Law is a good purpose - to teach men God's Will. It brings joy to man's heart. Paul calls it holy. He states it is an advantage for the Jews to have had the law - God's Will.

Do you REALLY think that the Bible is inspired by God? Or are you just expressing the heresy of Marcion again? The Church has already shot down that idea long ago.

The problem with the law is that it has no ability to empower anyone to obey the law.
Furthermore, the law is neutral:
One can obey it for legalistic, self-justifying reasons or one can obey it out of faith and love.

That is the heart of the argument in Paul. "works of the law" - legalistic following of the Law - does not justify. The just man LIVES BY FAITH. Nothing matters but faith working in love. Love does not abrogate the law. It perfects it, as Jesus Himself states.

Naturally, grace has always been available to man, that is why so many people were just in God's eyes, even during the OT.

Regards

 

[gr8grace]

[Quote previously deleted by Sparrowhawke]
Regards

Come now! You and I have had our disagreements. And I do not consider you a liar and In darkness. (I am misguided or you are misguided)

We have debated OSAS, which is a very serious matter compared to a statement that was made by someone, that you filled in the blanks for.

I can make the same statement,"Well I have the Holy Spirit in full measure and have the gifts that the scriptures clearly describe."

EVERY Born again person has the Holy Spirit in FULL MEASURE. Most do not use Him in full measure though, they are grieving or Quenching most of the time.

The Gifts that I believe I have from the Spirit are discernment, love,kindness(most of the time), slow to anger,helping,teaching.

If someone came around and said ,"Christ and Christ crucified is not true." then we would have to get ready for battle.

 

[Deborah13]

Let us take the book of James and climb to the top of Mt. Carmel and let's see.

Study up...

Jethro, I would love to see a study of James. It can be a difficult book but with the leading of the Holy Spirit and the sincere Christians on this forum I would think we could have an insightful discussion of James' teachings.

Could we do that? and if so.... I would like to see you start a new thread.

I apologize if this approach is too direct and considered pushy. I don't mean to be and this is a request.

 

[John Zain]

Well I have the Holy Spirit in full measure and have the gifts that the scriptures clearly describe. So that proves nothing, for many of those who turned back into law, as in the book of Gal. had received this as well, but where cutoff and had falling from grace because they turned from grace back to the law.
So just because one can speak in tongues means little to me, for there are many false charismatic movements and they all have false gifts of the Spirit.

From your answer, it is obvious that you don't understand what I'm talking about.
Your red is in great error.

[Comment directed at the man and not the subject has been Edited (removed) by Sparrowhawke]

BTW, tongues is only one of the 9 ... it is super to have, but not necessary.
Be like most people, ignore reality, and make excuses citing the grievous errors
of many deceived pentecostals/charismatics who have gone way overboard.

[Comment directed at the man and not the subject has been Edited (removed) by Sparrowhawke]

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro, I would love to see a study of James. It can be a difficult book but with the leading of the Holy Spirit and the sincere Christians on this forum I would think we could have an insightful discussion of James' teachings.

Could we do that? and if so.... I would like to see you start a new thread.

I apologize if this approach is too direct and considered pushy. I don't mean to be and this is a request.

That would be cool. I'll think about what angle we should approach the book at.

If you don't know already, you'll be amazed at the many references James makes to the scriptures of the day, the old testament.

 

[Sparkey]

EVERY Born again person has the Holy Spirit in FULL MEASURE. Most do not use Him in full measure though, they are grieving or Quenching most of the time.

I like to consider Ephesians 4 while thinking of these things. We will come into the fullness and the measure of the stature of Christ, this is promised and true. I can't be skeptical of others simply because I've not myself attained because it is my true hope to be allowed to witness this, here, on this earth and in my lifetime. Unsure if this desire will be granted me, but it is my request that I be allowed to see it, to see it in you. Clearly we have GRACE according to the measure of Christ, as the Bible says, but I'm simply not as tall as He is. Still hoping to grow in the unity and peace of our faith here. Please recall Eph 4:32 while dealing with me, as I am putting my heart out there with this.

 

[Mitspa]

From your answer, it is obvious that you don't understand what I'm talking about.
Your red is in great error.

[Comment directed at the man and not the subject has been Edited (removed) by Sparrowhawke]

BTW, tongues is only one of the 9 ... it is super to have, but not necessary.
Be like most people, ignore reality, and make excuses citing the grievous errors
of many deceived pentecostals/charismatics who have gone way overboard.

[Comment directed at the man and not the subject has been Edited (removed) by Sparrowhawke]

Well I am what I am by the grace of God. If you like it or not it matters little to me. Again I say it is a very good thing that you are so found of correction may My God humble [us] today.

 

[Mitspa]

But when sin does have dominion over you what does this mean?

I know the answer to that according to what you've been saying here, but I want you to answer the question.

well the strength of sin is the law! so put it together.
The reason some of you are so sinful and wicked in your hearts is because you reject Gods grace and attempt to establish your own righteousness by the law.
We who are under Gods grace have come into the "Divine Nature" we walk in the Spirit and our flesh is put to death.

Added: by reba,

Luk 6:41 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Luk 6:42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.

 

[gr8grace]

I like to consider Ephesians 4 while thinking of these things. We will come into the fullness and the measure of the stature of Christ, this is promised and true. I can't be skeptical of others simply because I've not myself attained because it is my true hope to be allowed to witness this, here, on this earth and in my lifetime. Unsure if this desire will be granted me, but it is my request that I be allowed to see it, to see it in you. Clearly we have GRACE according to the measure of Christ, as the Bible says, but I'm simply not as tall as He is. Still hoping to grow in the unity and peace of our faith here. Please recall Eph 4:32 while dealing with me, as I am putting my heart out there with this.

Hi Sparrow,

I said ,"THEY" are either quenching or grieving the Spirit. I should of said "we" as ME included.

My prayer is the same as yours brother.

God Bless.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

..."the perfect law of liberty" This NOT THE LAW OF MOSES!

Let's trace out James' words and see if it's the law of Moses or not.

"...humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you." (James 1:21 NIV)

"22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says" (James 1:22 NIV)

"23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like." (James 1:23-24 NIV)

"25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do." (James 1:25 NIV)

"27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress..." ref. Deuteronomy 14:28-29 (James 1:27 NIV)

"3 If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, “Here’s a good seat for you,” but say to the poor man, “You stand there” or “Sit on the floor by my feet,” 4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?" ref. Leviticus 19:15 (James 2:3-4 NIV)

"8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right." ref. Leviticus 19:18 (James 2:8 NIV)

"9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers." ref. Leviticus 19:15 (James 2:9 NIV)

"12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom... ref. see vs 25 above " (James 2:12 NIV)

"15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?" ref. Deuteronomy 15:7-8 (James 2:15-16 NIV)

24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone." (James2:24 NIV)

It's very easy to see the the 'word', and the 'scripture' that we are commanded to 'keep' (yes, he said 'keep') so we will be blessed is in fact the very law of Moses. It's equally easy to see that the examples of the 'doing' of faith that shows a person to have the righteousness of Christ is very much the doing, the 'keeping' (gasp!) of the law of Moses. But you can see right from the context that he is not saying we are justified (MADE righteous) by this 'keeping' of the law of Moses. We are SHOWN to be righteous by the 'keeping' of the law of Moses summarized in the law (yes, the law) 'love your neighbor as yourself'.

"Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds." (James 2:18 NIV)

 

[francisdesales]

Come now! You and I have had our disagreements. And I do not consider you a liar and In darkness. (I am misguided or you are misguided)

I did not make that statement because of a disagreement, but rather, over the vast contrast between word and action as noted on this thread by other people besides me. It was said to provide relief .vs the self-appointed prophet who would disprove his calling by how he treats other people. A true prophet of God is walking in the light - as evidenced with how they treat others. This is how we know we are walking in the light, etc., how we treat others. Not because we THINK we know everything and feel it necessary to condemn anyone who disagrees, even while provided logic that defeats the said INTERPRETATION. First John has some choice words to say about people who make outrageous claims but don't fill out the part by their action.

I didn't mean to offend your sensibilities, but the words should fit the actions, and the bible speaks harshly about false prophets. In addition, it is unseemly to even SAY such things - it shows how much further one must come in their walk to mimic our Pioneer, Jesus, Who was meek and humble.

I can make the same statement,"Well I have the Holy Spirit in full measure and have the gifts that the scriptures clearly describe."

You and anyone making that statement without tongue-in-cheek would be deluded. Even Paul himself states that not everyone has all the gifts of the Spirit in equal or full measure. 1 Cor 12 and Eph 4. Maybe Romans, I forget. "Not all are apostles..." Thus, it is BOASTING for anyone to make such an impossible claim. Scriptures only mention three exceptions about fullness: John the Baptist, Mary and Jesus.

Did you note that none of the above named brag about such things? They are gifts from God, not something to boast about, even IF you had them. To make such a statement is THE epitome of pride - which is the root of all sin.

It is especially dangerous in religious men, because they believe God is inspiring them to act in such an ungodly manner. Not even Jesus was able (through human means) to break through the proud religious of His time.

EVERY Born again person has the Holy Spirit in FULL MEASURE.

Please provide a citation. I don't recall ever reading that anyone was full of the Spirit of God except who I have already named.

Furthermore, IF anyone had a full measure of the Holy Spirit, it would STRONGLY SUGGEST that there is nothing more to improve on in the realm of holiness. Why pray for the Spirit to grant grace if you already are FULL of grace??? That is plain silly. Who would make such a statement ... well... Uhm, Ok, I guess some would

The Gifts that I believe I have from the Spirit are discernment, love,kindness(most of the time), slow to anger,helping,teaching.

Of which no one has in fullness.

If someone came around and said ,"Christ and Christ crucified is not true." then we would have to get ready for battle.

what does 1 PETER say about that? Research it and let me how we are to "apologize".

The "battling" attitude is the reason many are turned off from the "religion of Love". It is rarely tried and put to practice...

Regards