francisdesales
Member
Is that like claiming for yourself to be God's prophet who is full of the Holy Spirit while refusing to address what your interlocuter even says???
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Is that like claiming for yourself to be God's prophet who is full of the Holy Spirit while refusing to address what your interlocuter even says???
Francis,I did not make that statement because of a disagreement, but rather, over the vast contrast between word and action as noted on this thread by other people besides me. It was said to provide relief .vs the self-appointed prophet who would disprove his calling by how he treats other people. A true prophet of God is walking in the light - as evidenced with how they treat others. This is how we know we are walking in the light, etc., how we treat others. Not because we THINK we know everything and feel it necessary to condemn anyone who disagrees, even while provided logic that defeats the said INTERPRETATION. First John has some choice words to say about people who make outrageous claims but don't fill out the part by their action.
I didn't mean to offend your sensibilities, but the words should fit the actions, and the bible speaks harshly about false prophets. In addition, it is unseemly to even SAY such things - it shows how much further one must come in their walk to mimic our Pioneer, Jesus, Who was meek and humble.
You and anyone making that statement without tongue-in-cheek would be deluded. Even Paul himself states that not everyone has all the gifts of the Spirit in equal or full measure. 1 Cor 12 and Eph 4. Maybe Romans, I forget. "Not all are apostles..." Thus, it is BOASTING for anyone to make such an impossible claim. Scriptures only mention three exceptions about fullness: John the Baptist, Mary and Jesus.
Did you note that none of the above named brag about such things? They are gifts from God, not something to boast about, even IF you had them. To make such a statement is THE epitome of pride - which is the root of all sin.
It is especially dangerous in religious men, because they believe God is inspiring them to act in such an ungodly manner. Not even Jesus was able (through human means) to break through the proud religious of His time.
Please provide a citation. I don't recall ever reading that anyone was full of the Spirit of God except who I have already named.
Furthermore, IF anyone had a full measure of the Holy Spirit, it would STRONGLY SUGGEST that there is nothing more to improve on in the realm of holiness. Why pray for the Spirit to grant grace if you already are FULL of grace??? That is plain silly. Who would make such a statement... well... Uhm, Ok, I guess some would
Of which no one has in fullness.
what does 1 PETER say about that? Research it and let me how we are to "apologize".
The "battling" attitude is the reason many are turned off from the "religion of Love". It is rarely tried and put to practice...
Regards
All the best to you. If you believe that only half or a 1/4 of the Spirit came to seal you, It looks as if no one can help with that.
Read a little closer to what was typed, Mitspa nor I claimed to have ALL the GIFTS.(like I said, it could sure be read that way if one wanted to read it like that)
I personally believe(presently) that tongues and Healing and prophecy Ended with the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD and the completion of the Canon in 96AD. That belief could change in the Future, for me personally right now I see them as finished.
As to your last statement, Is that not whats going on right here?
The "battling" attitude is the reason many are turned off from the "religion of Love". It is rarely tried and put to practice...
Deborah13
Member
Here are some others the Scriptures say were Full of the Spirit.
Acts 11:22-25
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
22 The news about them reached the ears of the church at Jerusalem, and they sent Barnabas off to Antioch. 23 Then when he arrived and witnessed the grace of God, he rejoiced and began to encourage them all with resolute heart to remain true to the Lord; 24 for he was a good man, and full of the Holy Spirit and of faith. And considerable numbers were brought to the Lord. 25 And he left for Tarsus to look for Saul;
Acts 7:54-55
Amplified Bible (AMP)
54 Now upon hearing these things, they [the Jews] were cut to the heart and infuriated, and they ground their teeth against [Stephen].
55 But he, full of the Holy Spirit and controlled by Him, gazed into heaven and saw the glory (the splendor and majesty) of God, and Jesus standing at God’s right hand;
Acts 6:3
King James Version (KJV)
3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.
5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:
Greetings francisdesales!... In addition, it is unseemly to even SAY such things - it shows how much further one must come in their walk to mimic our Pioneer, Jesus, Who was meek and humble.
You and anyone making that statement without tongue-in-cheek would be deluded. Even Paul himself states that not everyone has all the gifts of the Spirit in equal or full measure. 1 Cor 12 and Eph 4. Maybe Romans, I forget. "Not all are apostles..." Thus, it is BOASTING for anyone to make such an impossible claim. Scriptures only mention three exceptions about fullness: John the Baptist, Mary and Jesus.
...
Please provide a citation. I don't recall ever reading that anyone was full of the Spirit of God except who I have already named.
Furthermore, IF anyone had a full measure of the Holy Spirit, it would STRONGLY SUGGEST that there is nothing more to improve on in the realm of holiness. Why pray for the Spirit to grant grace if you already are FULL of grace??? That is plain silly. Who would make such a statement
Of which no one has in fullness.
what does 1 PETER say about that? Research it and let me how we are to "apologize".
The "battling" attitude is the reason many are turned off from the "religion of Love". It is rarely tried and put to practice...
Regards
I would like to encourage you to explore more of the ideas that I hear in your post. I trust that you also understand that although they may be new to me, I am not taking any type of adversarial position in my question, but regarding the three you've mentioned,
I am curious. My current thoughts are centered on Eph 4 especially where we hear about the "measure of Grace," that is given. This is not (in my mind) the same measure which is poured out upon us regarding the "fullness of the Holy Spirit", which upon Jesus was given in full measure.
Part of what I understand is that since we have not come into the fullness and stature of the measure of Christ, we still lack the capacity needed to contain such blessing. That is not to say that the God will not respond to the heartfelt prayer of His Son for us, but I would like to hear you speak further in this, after you've had time to prayerfully consider it. To me, this is a very "holy" subject and perhaps we would do well to consider another thread for this purpose. In any case, thank you for your thoughts and prayers in these matters.
Cordially,
Sparrow
M
Mitspa
Guest
So I am now guilty of being "full" of the Spirit? I accept that charge "be ye being filled with the Spirit" wow talk about looking for any reason to accuse someone! lol
M
Mitspa
Guest
Well I have not claimed to be a "phophet" but a teacher.
That is a dishonest charge that I would hope you would edit out?
M
Mitspa
Guest
Rom 8:2 For the LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE HAS "SET ME FREE" from the law of sin and death. (the ten commandments as Paul used in clear terms in Rom 7:7)
Lets look at that word "set free" ELEUTHERO =LIBERTY
now lets look at James 1:25 "perfect LAW OF ELEUTHREAS
"liberty"
James and Paul are not in conflict, James is giving testimony and witness to Paul.
To attempt to make this scripture a return to the law of Moses, is to reject the gospel and to work against the truth of Christ.
francisdesales
Member
What do you think "I have received the Holy Spirit in full measure" to mean? It means you have received everything that the Holy Spirit has to offer. To the fullest measure.
Type what you mean, please.
A person who says they have full measure means they have ALL the gifts. If any were lacking, you would have NOT received to the fullest measure. This is common sense, isn't it?
I see no reason to believe that God's Spirit suddenly stopped working in 96 AD (I have no idea where you got that date regarding the canon, we'll have to discuss that later - the NT canon was not set for hundreds of years later). Where is your scriptural evidence that this would come to an end? God continues to work miracles, why not extraordinary gifts? I have read of a number of them throughout the course of history that have been vouched for reliably, but of course, they are open to belief and one does not have to believe them.
Battling? There is nothing wrong with debating, done in charity. Excuse me if I am a bit rough around the edges, I am a bit rusty still, just coming from political discussion sites - those can be quite different. I appreciate yours and Deborah's discussions and have learned a few things. That is why I come here.
God bless,
Regards
francisdesales
Member
There is no point going any further in discussion, thanks. I got better things to do than talk to someone who can't seem to figure out what I am saying because he isn't listening. I have warned you about strawmen, and you merely keep repeating them. Why bother to..., well, I have another Scriptural verse in mind, but I better not...
As a teacher, have you ever been trained to listen? It might be helpful in debate, as well.
Take care.
Jethro Bodine
Member
It's not a return to the 'way of gaining righteousness by the law'. It's an upholding of the requirements of God found in the law of Moses through faith in Christ.
I am amazed that you can not discern the difference. Utterly amazed.
francisdesales
Member
Thank you Deborah.
I believe the citations you post regarding "full of the Holy Spirit" means something different from what I have in mind.
"Full" can mean permeated with - as opposed to empty of.
"Full" can mean perfect, lacking nothing.
Now, given that most OSAS people (I have learned there is no monolithical OSAS group...!) believe that there are no perfect men/women, how could the above verse citations refer to definition #2? How could there be several persons on this thread who suddenly pop up and talk about being "perfect, lacking nothing" - which is what "full measure" would indicate, if I am not mistaken.
This was my thoughts on the matter at the time. I have no desire to argue further about this, it is not worthwhile. I know I am not full of the Holy Spirit, nor is anyone else here. I am not perfect, and to me, it is not a sign of humility to brag about such things, since that would be a gift from God anyways. But that is my personal piety.
Regards
M
Mitspa
Guest
Jethro in your post you most clearly tried to represent that James was speaking of the law of mose.
Now again you make a big circle and always come back to being justified by the written code. Now you may say that "justified" has different meanings etc.. or some other stuff about this way or that way? There is only ONE WAY, through faith in Christ and the Spirit of God working through us The written code cannot ever make a charge of sin against those who are justified by Christ.
The written code has no power over a believer. Its purpose was to make all sinners and bring all to Christ that they might be justified by faith. But after faith has come we are no longer to be judged by the law. These things are said over and over in clear and evident ways. They cannot be challenge.
Even now I wonder if you are claiming to keep the written code of the law? If not then how could you attempt to lay its yoke upon others? There is no way to look to written code to see if one is walking in the Spirit. For the written code will produce sinful desires in those who look to it.
Now what I think is that you do not even understand what you are trying to teach? for they will desire to be teachers of the law not knowing what they are saying or trying to affirm.
Lay out in clear terms the standard that you claim you are keeping? Are you claiming to keep the standard of the written code? Or have you brought the law down to a standard YOU THINK is possible to keep? I would like to judge you by your own doctrines , if you can decribe them?
Jethro Bodine
Member
Let's trace out James' words and see if it's the law of Moses or not.
"...humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you." (James 1:21 NIV)
"22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says" (James 1:22 NIV)
"23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like." (James 1:23-24 NIV)
"25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do." (James 1:25 NIV)
"27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress..." ref. Deuteronomy 14:28-29 (James 1:27 NIV)
"3 If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, “Here’s a good seat for you,” but say to the poor man, “You stand there” or “Sit on the floor by my feet,” 4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?" ref. Leviticus 19:15 (James 2:3-4 NIV)
"8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right." ref. Leviticus 19:18 (James 2:8 NIV)
"9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers." ref. Leviticus 19:15 (James 2:9 NIV)
"12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom... ref. see vs 25 above " (James 2:12 NIV)
"15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?" ref. Deuteronomy 15:7-8 (James 2:15-16 NIV)
24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone." (James2:24 NIV)
It's very easy to see the the 'word', and the 'scripture' that we are commanded to 'keep' (yes, he said 'keep') so we will be blessed is in fact the very law of Moses. It's equally easy to see that the examples of the 'doing' of faith that shows a person to have the righteousness of Christ is very much the doing, the 'keeping' (gasp!) of the law of Moses. But you can see right from the context that he is not saying we are justified (MADE righteous) by this 'keeping' of the law of Moses. We are SHOWN to have the righteousness that comes by faith by the 'keeping' of the law of Moses summarized in the law (yes, the law) 'love your neighbor as yourself'.
"Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds." (James 2:18 NIV)
(Well, I goofed and edited my post from earlier instead of making a new one. In the process I deleted what I had put in that post, lol.)
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Deborah13
Member
Yes, I understood what you were referring to and also that what the others were referring to was somewhat different. That's why I posted the scriptures.
M
Mitspa
Guest
Thank you for telling us about your humility and piety.
Jethro Bodine
Member
So I can know where I said this, I insist you quote where I said that we are justified by the law.
Prove to me that it doesn't. I already proved to you that it does.
That is the one way to righteousness. Many have made the mistake of thinking obedience to the law (the obedience that is required of the people of God) is what makes us legally righteous before God. That is the 'way' that was exposed for the impossibility that it is.
You mean can't bring a charge against the inner man...as long as he perseveres in the faith that justified him. Lose faith in Christ (assuming that's possible) and the the law will indeed make a charge against that person.
Somehow I get the feeling you think that if believers steal, or covet, or bear false witness, etc. that they can't be judged by that sin. Well, the outer man of the believer will most certainly be judged by his violations of the law--not in regard to salvation...unless that sin represents a turning away from the faith that justified him.
But it does in regard to the natural man. No obedience--no blessing. And if you're being disobedient because you've abandoned your faith in the blood of Christ (assuming one can really do that) you will be turned back over to the power and authority of the law and condemned by your sin.
"12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom..." (James 2:12 NIV), which I have shown you is in fact the law of Moses. In Christ it will judge the outer man. Outside of Christ it condemns the whole man to destruction.
When I do, I do. When I don't, I don't.
I'm miles ahead of where I used to be in regard to 'love your neighbor as yourself' and the various laws that get fulfilled by doing that.
It's only a 'yoke' to the unbeliever, and the one who is trying to make themselves righteous in God's sight by keeping the law, not those who uphold it through the new way of the Spirit.
There are so many exhortations in the NT to 'keep' the law, but somehow it's forbidden for believers to suggest other believers seek to uphold the law. Weird.
Explain to me how the commandments that Paul says are upheld by faith is not a good way to know if I've been walking in the Spirit in a particular situation? Have I been loving, or kind, or self-controlled if I handled a situation by coveting, or committing adultery, or lying, etc.? This is a big problem in the church today--people thinking they have been pleasing to God (kind, good, etc.) but who break the commandments of God. Perhaps because they've been taught not to look to the law because any and all 'looking to the law' is an attempt to be justified by the law, instead of a way we can tell if we've been walking by the Spirit. How silly.
ONLY if you look to the law in the attempt to be made righteous in God's sight by that law.
Right back at 'cha.
What I am learning to 'keep' more and more is all the fruit of the Spirit.
When I 'keep' the fruit of the Spirit I 'keep' the requirements of the law, 'do not kill', 'do not steal', 'do not covet', 'do not lie', etc. In fact, when I see I have not violated any of those laws I KNOW that I have successfully done that ('kept' the way of the fruit of the Spirit).
The standard of the law is upheld by walking in the fruit of the Spirit. When I do that (walk according to the fruit of the Spirit) I uphold the standard of the law...and then some. This is the promise of the New Covenant--actually being able to keep, by the new way of the Holy Spirit via faith in Christ, what they couldn't do in the old way of written commands. I do in fact keep the standard of the law...when I walk according to the fruit of the Spirit.
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Hi Francis,
I would guess that the statement in question was taken by you and I in pretty much the same way. I am Just saying that it was not drawn out in certain terms for us to jump to our own conclusions.
I believe that every believer has 100% of the Holy spirit residing in us, and we are Heirs to all that He has to offer. BUT as I have said we grieve and Quench that Spirit to a degree that most of us have no Idea what we have at our finger tips, if we would truly WALK in the Spirit.
I honestly wish you the best. And when things do not seem so convoluted I hope to strike some iron with you Brother.
M
Mitspa
Guest
Alright jethro I will grant to you that the law can be like a set of training wheels on a childs bike, Like Paul used them as examples to those who where children, the point is ALWAYS to bring them into the Spirit and into love. Now in as much as one uses the law to help affirm the Spirit, faith and love, I will agree with that. But a believer should know beyond doubt that the law has passed for them as it relates to being judged or justified. Love is the issue and the goal.
When one has learned to walk in the spirit and love, the training wheels are removed. There is a process from going from the flesh into the spirit. That process requires that Gods love and the free gift of righteousness is well known and understood. To bring the written code in between a believer and RECEIVEING Gods love and grace is to bring death to them.
Now I do not think you have the understanding to teach others, you do not seem to understand what you believe yourself? I warn you not to teach others the nonsense you have tried to pass off to me. I warn you to learn and study and come into this discussion with honesty and God will show you the depths of His mercy and grace. For if at any point a man will not be honest in the Word? He will fail. Become a fool and God will make you wise. Stop trying to make the gospel make sense to your natural understanding! The natural mind CANNOT understand the Nature of God.
Now I have tried to teach you, you have been given the true gospel. Do not be deceived, those who teach law are in rebellion against God and against His Christ.
Do not be deceived, God sees the sin in mans heart! We may fool ourselves or others into thinking we are keeping the standard of the written code, but God is not mocked.
Who is lawless but those who teach and preach a standard they do not keep?
It would be better for a man to never have been born than to have received the free gift of righteousness and abundant grace, and then reject that and turn to wallow in his own sin, by the law.
When one has learned to walk in the spirit and love, the training wheels are removed. There is a process from going from the flesh into the spirit. That process requires that Gods love and the free gift of righteousness is well known and understood. To bring the written code in between a believer and RECEIVEING Gods love and grace is to bring death to them.
Now I do not think you have the understanding to teach others, you do not seem to understand what you believe yourself? I warn you not to teach others the nonsense you have tried to pass off to me. I warn you to learn and study and come into this discussion with honesty and God will show you the depths of His mercy and grace. For if at any point a man will not be honest in the Word? He will fail. Become a fool and God will make you wise. Stop trying to make the gospel make sense to your natural understanding! The natural mind CANNOT understand the Nature of God.
Now I have tried to teach you, you have been given the true gospel. Do not be deceived, those who teach law are in rebellion against God and against His Christ.
Do not be deceived, God sees the sin in mans heart! We may fool ourselves or others into thinking we are keeping the standard of the written code, but God is not mocked.
Who is lawless but those who teach and preach a standard they do not keep?
It would be better for a man to never have been born than to have received the free gift of righteousness and abundant grace, and then reject that and turn to wallow in his own sin, by the law.
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I want to add one more thing. I do not and don't even know how to break down what people say into small "QUOTES". Just from some of the things that you have quoted from me, half of my sentences and scriptures that I use are missing. I am quoted with half of what I have really said to carry out a thought.
So I always quote the whole post.